Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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LisaA said:
This is a Religious Sister…she knows better.

Lisa
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Maybe, maybe not. If you go way back in this thread to the discussions and the information presented on how some of these sisters were formed in the 1960’s and 1970’s, it becomes clear that they might not know better at all.

I’m not letting her off the hook, merely stating that are likely more people to blame.
 
jwinch2 said:
Maybe, maybe not. If you go way back in this thread to the discussions and the information presented on how some of these sisters were formed in the 1960’s and 1970’s, it becomes clear that they might not know better at all.

I’m not letting her off the hook, merely stating that are likely more people to blame.
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Jason I absolutely agree that the Nuns on the Bus phenomenon is a product of the 60s/70’s feminism, “sex drugs and rock n roll” approach. But even given that, there has been so much more education on life issues that you’d think they might catch up with the times.

I heard an interview with someone on Catholic Radio who actually saw the bus. She said it looked like a rock star rolled into town but when the door opened one person got off, looked around to be sure there were supportive signs and a handful of sisters came off the bus. Not exactly a huge groundswell of support for their cause.

Loved the image of the Imagine Sisters!
Lisa
 
How ironic. Vatican Council II was convened as a pro-active measure to guard against elements of the Church forgetting that they are merely in the world, not of the world. Before his crucifixion, Christ asked the Father on our behalf: “My prayer is not that you take them out of the world, but that you protect them from the Evil One. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it” (John 17:15-16).

So what is to be done with those of us who took the guidance of the Council and began twisting it for personal, perverse purposes before the ink was dry? A fruit cake of Catholic Socialists, Americanism heretics and homosexuals have been increasingly “of the world”, and doing it with increasing boldness, for half a century.

Since the 60ties, Catholic doctrine, architecture, liturgy, K through post-graduate instruction including seminaries, language and even music have become of the world to the point that Catholic “social justice” can now mean abortion for the “poor”; “entertainment” can and often does mean filth; and “marriage” can mean sodomy and pederasty blessed by a “Christian” minister. We have lost at least two generations of children, and even those who have been home-schooled are at risk if left to the tender mercies of many Catholic Colleges: newwaysministry.org/GFC.html and blog.cardinalnewmansociety.org/2012/04/30/lavender-graduation-trend-continues-at-catholic-colleges/

The secular, and seemingly, the anti-Catholic Catholic media as well, is overjoyed with every act of public Catholic protestation by the LCWR, NETWORK, CTA crowd and the “of the world” clergy. BTW, Is there still such a thing as Protestant protestation? It’s getting difficult to tell much difference between the public and academic faces of the two faiths.

So has the Father allowed the prince of this world to win despite Christ’s prayer? Here’s Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.: QUOTE It is the evangelist St. John who concentrates on this title of evil spirit as prince of this world. To be exact there are three passages in the fourth Gospel where Jesus identifies the devil as the prince of this world.
On the first occasion, Jesus is speaking to the people just before He enters His Passion:
“Now is the judgment of the world; now will the prince of the world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.” Now He said this signifying by what death He wants to die (Jn 12: 31-32).
On the second occasion, Jesus is speaking during the Last Supper. He is telling His followers not to be afraid. He was indeed going away from them. But He would come back. Then He continued:
“I will no longer speak much with you, for the prince of the world is coming, and in me he has nothing. But He comes that the world may know that I love the Father and that I do as the Father has commended me” (Jn 14: 30-31).
On the third occasion, still at the Last Supper, our Lord predicts the coming of the Holy Spirit and the final victory over the prince of this world:
“I speak the truth to you; it is expedient for you that I depart. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go I will send Him to you and when He has come He will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment; of sin, because they do not believe in me; of justice, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more; and of judgment, because the prince of this world has already been judged” (Jn 16: 7-11). END QUOTE

Be not afraid, JP II liked to say.
 
Bishop Explains Vatican’s Criticism Of U.S. Nuns
Blair tells Fresh Air that the LCWR is “promoting unilaterally new understandings, a new kind of theology, that is not in accordance with the faith of the church.” He says he would like to have a dialogue with the LCWR to “educate and help the sisters appreciate and accept church teaching and to implement it in their discussions, and try to heal some of the questions or concerns they have about these issues.”
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**Interview Highlights
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On the LCWR not taking a hard-line stance on abortion**
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“I recall something that Pope John Paul II said: He said that all other human rights are false and illusory. If the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and condition of all personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination … to relativize or say, well the right to life of an unborn child is a preoccupation with fetuses or [it is] relative in its importance, I cannot agree with that, and I don’t think that represents the church’s teaching and the focus of our energies in trying to deal with this great moral issue.”

On the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic church

“I think that the sexual abuse scandal is a great shadow over the church and over the hierarchy that we have to live with. But we also have to keep going on as a church with integrity. … We certainly have cracked down on sexual abuse and made great strides to understand it and prevent it.”

On the dialogue that the LCWR would like to have with the Vatican

“If by dialogue, they mean that the doctrines of the church are negotiable, and that the bishops represent one position and the LCWR represents another position and somehow we find a middle ground about basic church teaching on faith and morals, then no, I don’t think that’s the dialogue the Holy See would envision. But if it’s a dialogue about how to have the LCWR really educate and help the sisters appreciate and accept church teaching and to implement it in their discussions, and try to heal some of the questions or concerns they have about these issues, that would be the dialogue”

On contraception
“We do recognize the validity of natural family planning but not artificial contraception. And admittedly, that involves more of a personal investment as a couple or individual, but that would be based on the moral grounds of what church teaches about marriage and human sexuality.”

On the ordination of women

“The church doesn’t say that the ordination of women is not possible because somehow women are unfit to carry out functions of the priest, but because on the level of sacramental signs, it’s not the choice that our Lord made when it comes to those who act in his very person, as the church’s bridegroom. And you can say that sounds like a lot of poetry or you know, how do we know that’s true, but if you’re a Catholic, this is part of our sacraments and practice for two millennia, and it’s not just an arbitrary decision of male oppression over women”

On the importance of women in the church

“It’s very important for me to say that the history of religious women in the United States is absolutely outstanding, and that one of the most disconcerting things about recent reports is to suggest that somehow that the bishops or the Holy See are not grateful or supportive for the work of religious women. They have done tremendous work in our country and throughout the world. If anything, part of our concern is precisely for their diminished numbers and their aging population. … We hope there would be revitalization of religious life for women”

npr.org/2012/07/25/157356092/bishop-explains-vaticans-criticism-of-u-s-nuns
 
I’m not sure if some of the reaction, on the part of the sisters, is genuine or not. That is, there has been some reference, in articles, to “surprise” about what the leadership is interpreting as Vatican disapproval of the Orders’ various emphases on social justice, as if the Vatican does not want them to focus on social justice. That’s not at all what the Vatican is saying. Obviously the Orders have social justice missions. (More of them should have education missions, i.m.o., because sisters are actually needed more in that area than any other need in the Church right now.)

But, be that as it may, it’s not that they shouldn’t “focus” on social justice, and rather should “focus” on Life issues. It’s that they (some of them) have been teaching against Church doctrine on Life issues, both affirmatively and by omission or suggestion. Further, in their emphases they have reduced (in appearance) the Church’s message to one only of social justice, not much distinguishable from secular organizations, frankly. One theme is the work engaged in by the Order (the mission, the charism); the other theme is the message/teaching – in spoken word, in written communication, and the critical fact that this message/teaching should be different from what secular organizations provide and communicate. The Church is One; it’s not a collection of independent contractors each with a different version of Church teaching. When you represent an institution (even a secular institution), you are not independent of the message & mission of that institution, including whether you happen to like that institution’s representatives, senior figures, etc. When one of the Sisters writes a book in direct opposition to Church moral doctrine, none of the Leadership should be “surprised” that the Vatican might want to look into their operations.

Some of the Sisters have been behaving like independent contractors without obligations to the Bishop of Rome and his representatives, and it’s time they’re stopped. I pray for new orders to be born who are not in opposition to Rome and who just might have an education mission, as I also pray for those Orders who have deliberately abandoned their original & genuine education mission to return to the truth of their Order as well.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I’m not sure if some of the reaction, on the part of the sisters, is genuine or not. That is, there has been some reference, in articles, to “surprise” about what the leadership is interpreting as Vatican disapproval of the Orders’ various emphases on social justice, as if the Vatican does not want them to focus on social justice. That’s not at all what the Vatican is saying. Obviously the Orders have social justice missions. (More of them should have education missions, i.m.o., because sisters are actually needed more in that area than any other need in the Church right now.)

But, be that as it may, it’s not that they shouldn’t “focus” on social justice, and rather should “focus” on Life issues. It’s that they (some of them) have been teaching against Church doctrine on Life issues, both affirmatively and by omission or suggestion. Further, in their emphases they have reduced (in appearance) the Church’s message to one only of social justice, not much distinguishable from secular organizations, frankly. One theme is the work engaged in by the Order (the mission, the charism); the other theme is the message/teaching – in spoken word, in written communication, and the critical fact that this message/teaching should be different from what secular organizations provide and communicate. The Church is One; it’s not a collection of independent contractors each with a different version of Church teaching. When you represent an institution (even a secular institution), you are not independent of the message & mission of that institution, including whether you happen to like that institution’s representatives, senior figures, etc. When one of the Sisters writes a book in direct opposition to Church moral doctrine, none of the Leadership should be “surprised” that the Vatican might want to look into their operations.

Some of the Sisters have been behaving like independent contractors without obligations to the Bishop of Rome and his representatives, and it’s time they’re stopped. I pray for new orders to be born who are not in opposition to Rome and who just might have an education mission, as I also pray for those Orders who have deliberately abandoned their original & genuine education mission to return to the truth of their Order as well.
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Exactly!

*“If by dialogue they mean that the doctrines of the church are negotiable and the bishops represent one position and the LCWR presents another position, and somehow we find a middle ground about basic church teaching on faith and morals, then no,” he said. "I don’t think that is the kind of dialogue that the Holy See would envision.
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1203149.htmhttp://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1203149.htm
 
The sisters must believe in, and teach, orthodoxy. They must teach the Truth of the gospels as explained by the Magisterium. Jesus gave Peter the duty and the ability to pass on the Truth of the holy gospels. Nuns either have to abide by THAT Truth, or admit that they are following “another” gospel. In the end, only orthodoxy contains the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Only orthodoxy is capable of evangelizing a dead and dying nation. Praise God for Pope Benedict XVI, and may his successor be as diligent.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I’m not sure if some of the reaction, on the part of the sisters, is genuine or not. That is, there has been some reference, in articles, to “surprise” about what the leadership is interpreting as Vatican disapproval of the Orders’ various emphases on social justice, as if the Vatican does not want them to focus on social justice. That’s not at all what the Vatican is saying. Obviously the Orders have social justice missions. (More of them should have education missions, i.m.o., because sisters are actually needed more in that area than any other need in the Church right now.)

But, be that as it may, it’s not that they shouldn’t “focus” on social justice, and rather should “focus” on Life issues. It’s that they (some of them) have been teaching against Church doctrine on Life issues, both affirmatively and by omission or suggestion. Further, in their emphases they have reduced (in appearance) the Church’s message to one only of social justice, not much distinguishable from secular organizations, frankly. One theme is the work engaged in by the Order (the mission, the charism); the other theme is the message/teaching – in spoken word, in written communication, and the critical fact that this message/teaching should be different from what secular organizations provide and communicate. The Church is One; it’s not a collection of independent contractors each with a different version of Church teaching. When you represent an institution (even a secular institution), you are not independent of the message & mission of that institution, including whether you happen to like that institution’s representatives, senior figures, etc. When one of the Sisters writes a book in direct opposition to Church moral doctrine, none of the Leadership should be “surprised” that the Vatican might want to look into their operations.

Some of the Sisters have been behaving like independent contractors without obligations to the Bishop of Rome and his representatives, and it’s time they’re stopped. I pray for new orders to be born who are not in opposition to Rome and who just might have an education mission, as I also pray for those Orders who have deliberately abandoned their original & genuine education mission to return to the truth of their Order as well.
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I think all of us need to realize that we don’t know the whole story of what is happening here because we aren’t the sisters and we aren’t the bishops so we can’t know what they are thinking, what they have said behind closed doors now or in the past, or what they see happening in the future - and that includes me. But something that I do know about and can share is about the idea of charism and apostolate, social justice and education.

Your comments on the sisters working for social justice in contrast to education are a little skewed. First, education, in my own opinion as a sister in a community dedicated to Catholic education who teaches in a Catholic school, is an issue of social justice in and of itself. It is a structure that can, for better or worse, transform society. Education, or the lack of education, can oppress people or free them.

With the same theme of not knowing what has gone on behind closed doors I’d just like to share some practical things most people don’t know about how sisters live, especially in the traditional parish school model. I’m a teacher in a Catholic school which means that the parish must pay for the convent in which I live with the other sisters - the property and its maintenance, not our food or personal items. The parish also pays the sisters a stipend for being teachers, principals, tutors and so on which the sisters use to buy food, clothes (habits do cost money), medicine etc…

So let’s say I’m a pastor with no money and I’m paying for this convent plus the work the sisters do. I realize that I can hire a lay person for a little more money and rent this convent to someone who will pay rent and save my budget. So the sisters lose a school. Most communities who were always teachers and now have left school have left because there aren’t any jobs for them. It’s cheaper to hire lay teachers and principals sometimes.

In religious life we say that every community has its own unique charism (gift of the holy spirit for the building up of the Church), spirituality (way in which they relate to God in prayer), and apostolate (work they do). These three characteristics of a community are given at it’s founding and every community has a unique and special historical foundation. Communities were founded to nurse, teach, feed the hungry, work for the pro life movement, visit prinsoners… and many more apostolates. In that, if you took two communities of teaching sisters they would still be different because of their spirituality. One might follow a augustinian spirituality while another follows a more franciscan spirituality so they pray differently and look at the world differently. Then their charisms might still be different. The augustinians who are teachers might have as their mission to “Go out and preach the Gospel” so they would teach children, adults, immigrants… everyone. The franciscans might have as their charism to make God’s love visible and might focus more on caring for the people in the parish where they live and work by bringing communion to the sick and raising money for poor families when they aren’t in school.

Now, I just made these two communities up - but my point is that you cannot expect everyone to be the same. Additionally, because these communities have been so docile to what the church needed in the past many communities taught even though they weren’t founded to do so because the Church needed them to. So once it seemed that they were not needed anymore they went back to their original purpose to be faithful to their founders which the Church also asked them to do.

Now the pro-life and social justice issue. There are communities focused completely on pro-life work - it is their gift to the Church and because they have that special spirit they do it the best. I’m pro-life but I don’t have that charism and so I don’t spend a lot of time on pro-life issues. I teach what the Church teaches about the immorality of abortion in my religion class just as I teach about the Trinity and Scriptures and Saints…

The thing is that I truly believe that through my ministry of teaching I am being prolife because my students won’t stay poor, they won’t make poor decisions, they have a life to aim towards because of the education I am giving them. Hopefully because of the education they have received they will know God’s love for them and be dedicated to pulling themselves out of the poverty and violence that surround them.

Women don’t typically get abortions because they think its a nice idea - its a choice of desperation. Education is one way to pull people out of desperate situations. Social justice is another. We won’t be able to count how many abortions are stopped because of social justice but I truly believe that combating poverty, working for justice are ways to keep people out of that situation to begin with.

While there is definitely a problem when people are teaching against the truths the church holds, there is nothing immoral or wrong about disagreeing on the HOW of working for the Gospel and the Church and the truth. You might think A is a better way while I see B as a better way and usually the answer is that God needs us to do both. The Church is diverse and we need one another to be different!

One more thing - generally the sisters you are talking about here do not belong to an “order” but to a congregation or community. It’s complicated and not necessary to go into the whys but just for your information.
 
SrMarie said:
I think all of us need to realize that we don’t know the whole story of what is happening here because we aren’t the sisters and we aren’t the bishops so we can’t know what they are thinking, what they have said behind closed doors now or in the past, or what they see happening in the future - and that includes me. But something that I do know about and can share is about the idea of charism and apostolate, social justice and education.

Women don’t typically get abortions because they think its a nice idea - its a choice of desperation. Education is one way to pull people out of desperate situations. Social justice is another. We won’t be able to count how many abortions are stopped because of social justice but I truly believe that combating poverty, working for justice are ways to keep people out of that situation to begin with.

While there is definitely a problem when people are teaching against the truths the church holds, there is nothing immoral or wrong about disagreeing on the HOW of working for the Gospel and the Church and the truth. You might think A is a better way while I see B as a better way and usually the answer is that God needs us to do both. The Church is diverse and we need one another to be different!

One more thing - generally the sisters you are talking about here do not belong to an “order” but to a congregation or community. It’s complicated and not necessary to go into the whys but just for your information.
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SrMarie thank you for the explanation of some of the ‘inner workings’ of various communities of Religious. You are right, we are not privy to the behind closed doors aspect of these discussions. I hope that the issues will be resolved.

But I must take issue with your statement above which is bolded. Yes there probably are abortions that are an act of desperation. But most of them are NOT. They are after act birth control and the thought process of getting an abortion for many women is simply where to go and how much do I have to pay? Please don’t think I am being harsh. It is not these women’s fault so much as the fault of the big abortion providers and our secular media which has completely taken any guilt, concern for life or even fear out of having an abortion. Have you ever attended a Planned Parenthood “educational” event? I have. They completely ignore not only the life issues but even the health issues related to abortion. The focus is on how easy, how few side effects, how little it costs and how the abortion mill staff is “understanding and compassionate.”

Women have bought this hook line and sinker. I can tell you because I was one of them. No I never had an abortion but I grew up in the “if you can’t be good be careful” realm and PP was in my high school (this was back in the 70s!) pitching birth control, offering abortion access, telling us it was a 'blob of tissue" and that afterward you could just go on with your life. No muss no fuss!

Look at the statistics about abortion. The profile of the average abortion client is an adult woman in a white collar type job, in a relationship, possibly married, but “not ready” for a child. This is not a case of desperation, it is a case of convenience.

I realize many Religious have different charisms. If they are not focused on pro life missions at least please do not make it easier for the abortion lobby to keep up its bloody business by claiming that “women are desperate” when they are not.

Thank you for your dedication and service. I know many of you and your fellow Religous truly toil in obscurity.

Lisa
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I’m not sure if some of the reaction, on the part of the sisters, is genuine or not. That is, there has been some reference, in articles, to “surprise” about what the leadership is interpreting as Vatican disapproval of the Orders’ various emphases on social justice, as if the Vatican does not want them to focus on social justice. That’s not at all what the Vatican is saying. Obviously the Orders have social justice missions. (More of them should have education missions, i.m.o., because sisters are actually needed more in that area than any other need in the Church right now.)
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One of the things that seems to be getting lost in the conversation is that the Vatican, up to now anyway, has not said ANYTHING critical about any order or even any sisters themselves. This action is very narrowly focussed on the activities of the LCWR which consists only of some representative leaders from **some **of the orders and congregations. The activities of the LCWR cannot be generalized into the activies of all the sisters but neither can criticism of the LCWR be generalized into some criticism of the sisters and how they live out thier vocation daily.

Some of the excerpt from the Vatican statement, in fact, have expressed concern that some of the activities of the LCWR, such as position statements and choice of speakers for conferences, are giving a distorted idea of what the sisters as a whole are all about.

That’s not to say that there might not be some broader statements made in the future. The expectation, by many, from the visitation process was that the Vatican would be looking at the individual orders and congregations to ensure that they were still maintaining their Catholic identiy. But that hasn’t happened yet.
 
LisaA said:
SrMarie thank you for the explanation of some of the ‘inner workings’ of various communities of Religious. You are right, we are not privy to the behind closed doors aspect of these discussions. I hope that the issues will be resolved.

But I must take issue with your statement above which is bolded. Yes there probably are abortions that are an act of desperation. But most of them are NOT. They are after act birth control and the thought process of getting an abortion for many women is simply where to go and how much do I have to pay? Please don’t think I am being harsh. It is not these women’s fault so much as the fault of the big abortion providers and our secular media which has completely taken any guilt, concern for life or even fear out of having an abortion. Have you ever attended a Planned Parenthood “educational” event? I have. They completely ignore not only the life issues but even the health issues related to abortion. The focus is on how easy, how few side effects, how little it costs and how the abortion mill staff is “understanding and compassionate.”

Women have bought this hook line and sinker. I can tell you because I was one of them. No I never had an abortion but I grew up in the “if you can’t be good be careful” realm and PP was in my high school (this was back in the 70s!) pitching birth control, offering abortion access, telling us it was a 'blob of tissue" and that afterward you could just go on with your life. No muss no fuss!

Look at the statistics about abortion. The profile of the average abortion client is an adult woman in a white collar type job, in a relationship, possibly married, but “not ready” for a child. This is not a case of desperation, it is a case of convenience.

I realize many Religious have different charisms. If they are not focused on pro life missions at least please do not make it easier for the abortion lobby to keep up its bloody business by claiming that “women are desperate” when they are not.

Thank you for your dedication and service. I know many of you and your fellow Religous truly toil in obscurity.

Lisa
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Thank you for your kind reply.

Maybe the use of the word desperation conjured up for you the image of a woman who doesn’t want an abortion but does it anyway. What I meant was that (many not all) women have abortions, whether they feel guilty about it or not, because they don’t see another way. Desperation in my mind is when someone feels trapped with no way out. This can be because of domestic violence, lack of health care, lack of education, financial difficulties and so on.

Here are a few figures for you to ponder.

“After so many plans and expectations, an unanticipated pregnancy can seem like your life is over… The powerlessness you feel now is not who you know yourself to be. There are so many unanswered questions, so many seeming impossibilities.” - The Sisters of Life Website for Pregnant Women who need help. They adress the desperation felt by women with an unwanted pregnancy.

“Women living below the federal poverty line abort at a higher rate than women living above the poverty line. The Guttmacher Institute reports that a single woman below the poverty line (having an annual income of about $11,000) is** four times more likely to abort **than a woman making at least $30,000 per year.”

Read more: Abortion Facts - Abortion Facts whyprolife.com/abortion-facts/#ixzz222PK9c00

“Tragically, each year over one million unborn children never see the day of their birth. Too many women wrongly believe abortion is their only alternative. Studies have shown that for approximately three out of four women who have an abortion, the belief that they **cannot afford a child **was one of the key reasons. Many pregnant women, particularly young women, need better access to information and resources so they may be encouraged to choose life and have a healthy pregnancy and healthy baby.
An important step toward supporting pregnant women is to help them overcome poverty.” - United States Conference of Catholic Bishops Department of Justice, Peace and Human Development Office of Domestic Social Development, Pregnant Women Support Act, 2009

The above are examples of desperation that I was referring to - when women feel that they have no other choice. Whether they feel guilty or not about their decision, many times they feel trapped with no way out. That is the desperation I was speaking of. Just because they were contracepting before doesn’t mean that they weren’t afraid, scared and trapped once they found out they were pregnant and maybe they did calmly call the clinic to schedule their abortion - but often they see no other way.
 
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