Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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Continuing to appreciate the discussion, I nevertheless would like to point out that we should be careful not to interpret the absence of frequent repetition of doctrine as a signal that an entire community, or a member of a community, congregation, or Order has a soft position on the morality of abortion. And that includes even if certain members of some communities have been soft on the issue. Guilt by association is unfair, and hopefully we can all see that. 🙂

Many priests, for example, active in pro-life efforts, maintain a pastoral approach to this immoral problem. They also focus on the “desperation” issue. I think what was being discussed was a pastoral concern, rather than a diversion from authentic doctrine.

In any case, Catholics, lay and religious, are within their rights to differ regarding prudential judgment on the best approach(es), and to have those differences discussed.

JMO. You may not agree, but thanks for listening respectfully.
Agreed. As long as by their actions as well as when they do speak on faith or morals they are in line with the Magesterium.

My opinion of course would change if someone is in a DRE position or something similar. But if one is in a contemplative community or a nurse, etc., there is no reason to expect them to be crowing the Catechism from the rooftops every morning.

Peace,
 
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Abyssinia:
And that’s really what it call comes down to in my view. Either you are obedient to the Holy See in areas of faith and morals, or you are not. Trying to couch things in terms of conscience, etc. does not cut it. While one’s conscience should always be followed as a general rule of thumb, we all have a duty to properly form our conscience to be sure it is in line with the Gospel. In many of these cases, the sisters who are dissenting on areas like gay marriage, abortion, women clergy, etc. know that their position is incorrect which means that their conscience has been formed, but they have chosen to reject it.

There are five basic scenarios we can look at:
  1. A person knows what Church teaching is and follows it. This is virtuous and helps one get to Heaven.
  2. A person has a properly formed conscience and wants to follow it, but sins anyway. This person has chosen condemnation providing that they violated their conscience under their own free will. If they were forced to not follow their conscience, then they have not chosen to reject God’s love. And of course, if this person repents, they are freed from condemnation. In fact, seeking repentance can be a virtuous act in itself, in that you are following a correct conscience in an attempt to align your will with God’s will. These are the people we think of as faithful Christians in that they want to do what is right but are still sinners along with everyone else in the world.
  3. A person does not know what Church teaching is and thus, makes the wrong decision. However, they have no idea that there even is Church teaching on the issue. This is unintentional ignorance. This is not virtuous and will not help one get to Heaven. However, one is also not condemned for this.
  4. A person does not know what Church teaching is and makes the wrong decision. However, they do know that the Church has teachings on this issue, but have not bothered to learn them or have deliberately chosen to not seek them out. This is willful ignorance. Barring later repentance, one has freely chosen condemnation.
  5. A person knows what the Church teaches and decides to do what they want or advocate for something contrary anyways. This is rejection. Barring repentance, one has chosen condemnation for this.
I sincerely believe that most, including the overwhelming majority of sisters, fall into category # 2 above. In this scenario, we have those who are sincerely seeking to do the will of God by properly forming their conscience and attempting to follow it. Those people still sin from time to time. However, because they are contrite and penitent, they are open to receiving God’s grace through the Sacraments. There are two types of contrition that these persons can express: 1) Perfect Contrition: A person who is perfectly contrite truly loves God will seek out His teachings, and will try to act upon them out of love for Him; or 2) Imperfect contrition: A person who is imperfectly contrite will seek out God’s teachings out of fear of his just punishments and will try to act on them. Over time two things can happen: 1) they will be more able to align their will with God’s will; 2) imperfect contrition can become perfect contrition.

However, unless there is something that I am missing, I cannot see anyway that most of what we are seeing within LCWR and their lack of obedience does not fall into #'s 4 or 5 above. I don’t want to go so far as to judge the state of their soul, that is not my purview and thank the Lord for that! However, it is important to note for the average Catholic or even religious who might not think about this sort of thing all the time that our decisions do have consequences, both good or bad, depending on the circumstances which surround them. I certainly tend to forget this and I am fairly sure that other Christians do as well. If we freely, and this includes me, choose to ignore God’s teachings then we have also freely chosen to reject Him, and His Church. Barring future repentance which comes from contrition, this is a big problem.

Now, put that final scenario of choosing to reject God and add on the idea of not just condemning oneself, but actively leading others away from God as well, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
 
I read the article (noting its dramatized headline as well). A number of errors in the article, which is not surprising, but an enormous amount of bias as well, and some hyperbolic language beyond the headline.

The problem with the bias and the errors is that it doesn’t separate the important fact of doctrine with the important command of ministry, and that’s a crucial separation. Thus, when quoting this person,
“We were the ones who probably took Vatican II and ran the fastest and the farthest with it,” said Sister Janice Farnham, a retired professor of church history at the Boston College School of Theology and Ministry. “Sometimes our church leaders forget, we were tasked to do these things by the church. The church said jump, and we said, how high? The church said update, renew, go back to your sources, and we did it as best we could. We did it with a passion, and we paid dearly.”
What does “do these things” mean? It doesn’t necessarily mean what the NYT writers think it means. Running fastest and farthest with V2, and “updating, renewing, going back to their sources” does not necessarily mean that the sisters understood this as permission or encouragement to challenge doctrine. In fact, what follows in the article is an explanation of a number of very legitimate V2 “things” which religious responded to (i.e., more involvement in ministries, plural, in a variety of realms and functions).

But of course, as usual, we can expect the NYT to politicize most topics and events, from religion to education to the ordinary. And politicize they did…such as in the subsequent paragraphs about how collegiality with bishops was somehow replaced by “conservative” bishops for whose appointments the two most recent popes are responsible. Underlying that statement is the notion that Catholic doctrine is a personal and political choice by individual bishops, instead of a fixed understanding and requirement that is not subject to secular trends. (The NYT has never gotten that one right. Fact-checkers are always asleep at the wheel over in the Religion and Belief section of the newspaper.)

Regarding the obedience issue:
Our friendly poster JR has tried to explain the “autonomy” aspect of religious Orders (for example), and it’s something that I am still not entirely comfortable with. I fully understand that religious who make vows (including that of obedience) make theirs to God, not to The Church (that has been emphasized by Sr. Sandra Schneiders, a key figure in the LCWR). However, is the Church not God’s? Whether congregations, Orders, communities — Religious life, it seems to me, should not oppose the teachings of the Church, or let’s put it this way: When the V2 call to widen ministry makes a sister confront a choice between her ministry and church teaching (again, not a pastoral approach to that, but a fundamental understanding), I don’t see how the Church’s teaching can be compromised, or even needs to be. We are never called to change doctrine, not lay people and not religious. Religious, despite their amazingly virtuous answer to the gospel call, are not in a privileged place with regard to doctrine. Despite any level of technical autonomy in how they play out their legitimate ministries, that autonomy does not extend to a licence to dispense with or modify doctrine. It never has, and any sister who reads V2 as permission to do that, has misread V2, both in its literal sense and in its “spirit.”

Mind you, I do not interpret the NYT article as ascribing such heterodox views to the above sister it quotes; they provided only a snippet and, as always, out of context. I’m just making a general observation about the issue of “autonomy.”
 
I couldn’t open Abyssinia’s link to the obedience discussion. It appears to be a link within a link, by a blogger who sounds very interesting, but my .pdf is dysfunctional lately.

However, I want to say this about the obedience issue. Much of the rhetoric (not all, but much) which I hear (i.e., read in print) from many women religious, especially those in positions of leadership, concerns the bifurcation of “God” and “Church,” Or more specifically, “God” and/or their religious community, “versus” men. Notice I did not say versus people. I have not read an argument (there might be some) that is expressed as, God is the one to whom I owe obedience (and secondarily to my local Superior – and even that language is sometimes not used now); and that is in contradistinction to any obedience I owe to an institution (Church) whose directives are created by “people.” Rather, it is invariably framed as, I, a religious woman, need not obey the commands of “men.” (When a male religious makes a controversial remark, and states it is his right to do so, I have never heard him posit the conflict as between “men” and God.)

I find this gender warfare troubling. The context/subtext of the collective comments I refer to place this viewpoint as devaluing specifically the male origin of the directives. It’s as if clerical men, by virtue of their gender, are less authoritative than women religious. There is no authentic Catholic theology that supports such a worldview, or such an implied excuse for challenges to doctrine.

I’m sure I’ll get flamed for these observations, so flame away.
 
I read the article (noting its dramatized headline as well). A number of errors in the article, which is not surprising, but an enormous amount of bias as well, and some hyperbolic language beyond the headline.

But of course, as usual, we can expect the NYT to politicize most topics and events, from religion to education to the ordinary. And politicize they did…such as in the subsequent paragraphs about how collegiality with bishops was somehow replaced by “conservative” bishops for whose appointments the two most recent popes are responsible. Underlying that statement is the notion that Catholic doctrine is a personal and political choice by individual bishops, instead of a fixed understanding and requirement that is not subject to secular trends. (The NYT has never gotten that one right. Fact-checkers are always asleep at the wheel over in the Religion and Belief section of the newspaper.)

Regarding the obedience issue:
Our friendly poster JR has tried to explain the “autonomy” aspect of religious Orders (for example), and it’s something that I am still not entirely comfortable with. I fully understand that religious who make vows (including that of obedience) make theirs to God, not to The Church (that has been emphasized by Sr. Sandra Schneiders, a key figure in the LCWR). However, is the Church not God’s? Whether congregations, Orders, communities — Religious life, it seems to me, should not oppose the teachings of the Church, or let’s put it this way: When the V2 call to widen ministry makes a sister confront a choice between her ministry and church teaching (again, not a pastoral approach to that, but a fundamental understanding),** I don’t see how the Church’s teaching can be compromised, or even needs to be. We are never called to change doctrine, not lay people and not religious. Religious, despite their amazingly virtuous answer to the gospel call, are not in a privileged place with regard to doctrine. Despite any level of technical autonomy in how** they play out their legitimate ministries, that autonomy does not extend to a licence to dispense with or modify doctrine. It never has, and any sister who reads V2 as permission to do that, has misread V2, both in its literal sense and in its “spirit.”

Mind you, I do not interpret the NYT article as ascribing such heterodox views to the above sister it quotes; they provided only a snippet and, as always, out of context. I’m just making a general observation about the issue of “autonomy.”
With respect to the NYT article, as my granny used to say, consider the source. Given the obvious bias and scandals regarding plagarized or fabricated stories, that the NYT supposedly still has credibility escapes me. But one thing you can count on, if there is a dissenter who wants a platform, the NYT is right there and ready to go!

With respect to the bolded statement, I think this is the key and where much of the misunderstanding lies. I believe the vast majority of Religious are faithful, devoted and orthodox. So the questions regarding the leadership’s public positions and statements hurt those who are faithfully living their vocations.

The unfortunate truth is that often the media seeks out dissenters because their view comports with that of the Left and the MSM. So we hear from Sr Farrell and Sr Carol instead of a Religious who is “toiling in the vineyard of the Lord.” We as faithful Catholics know that what the dissenters claim is not representative of our Church, so it doesn’t shake our faith or understanding. But the damage is done in the court of public opinion. Because the public respects Religious, when their words dispute or question doctrine, when a Religious is escorting women into an abortion clinic, when a Religious speaks against the Bishops, the public not only gets an erroneous understanding of Catholicism, it gets a negative impression of a church mired in the past, run by a bunch of bitter old men who aren’t working in the trenches with the poor and disenfranchised.

For me, hearing Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden pontificate on Catholic doctrine (often wrong but never in doubt!) it’s bad enough because I know the majority concludes, well they must be right because they are in the upper eschelons of government. But even more damaging when we hear dissent from within the Church.

Lisa
 
The unfortunate truth is that often the media seeks out dissenters because their view comports with that of the Left and the MSM.
and because conflict (or what can be manipulated to appear as conflict) is more “exciting.” 😉

And I think this was also one of JR’s points in his earlier postings.
 
While I do have major issues with Sister Patricia’s comments on questioning Church teachings, I don’t have a big problem with Archbishop Sartain not being there for the meeting. To be fair, their ability to have a frank and open discussion will probably be enhanced without him in the room.
 
While I do have major issues with Sister Patricia’s comments on questioning Church teachings, I don’t have a big problem with Archbishop Sartain not being there for the meeting. To be fair, their ability to have a frank and open discussion will probably be enhanced without him in the room.
If I were a member of the group, I would have wanted to hear what he had to say. It’s hard to make an informed judgment if you only get one side of the story.
 
If I were a member of the group, I would have wanted to hear what he had to say. It’s hard to make an informed judgment if you only get one side of the story.
Fair point. I’m sure that there are many members of the LCWR who will in fact feel that way. At this point, it seems like they are in the preliminary situation of deciding whether or not they are going to stay canonical and attempt to work with the Vatican. Many of the more radical sisters have thrown out the “going non-canonical” idea so they probably need to get that out of the way.

To me, if they do that, they are nuts. As it stands, they have the appearance of legitimacy and members of the faithful can be deceived into thinking that they are indeed acting in good faith. If they go non-canonical, I believe their funding and political clout would dry up in very short order, and I think they know that.
 
I don’t give to the retirement fund for religious second collection because there are so many heterodox goddess-worshipping communities thinking that we want to pay for their retirement after their defiance. Nope. Not doing it. I only give to faithful ministries.

I hope the Spirit blows renewal through the LCWR so that they have greater fidelity.
 
I don’t give to the retirement fund for religious second collection because there are so many heterodox goddess-worshipping communities thinking that we want to pay for their retirement after their defiance. Nope. Not doing it. I only give to faithful ministries.

I hope the Spirit blows renewal through the LCWR so that they have greater fidelity.
Do you think that there are “many” whole communities like that, or are there perhaps only a few such groups, and more often one or two controversial figures within a single community?
🤷
 
I really do not see how this group can be reformed.

They might, if they decide to toe the line, appear to be submitting to Rome, but none of them will ever recant the error in their minds. They’ve gained recognition and status from the world, (take a look at some of their honorary degrees) and they have a public record which they must now stand upon, or else lose their credibility. I’d imagine they really do see themselves as pioneers blazing a new trail for the sake of the Church and the good of women - they are the “radical obedience to the voice of God.” If they truly believe this, how can they back down now?
 
If I were a member of the group, I would have wanted to hear what he had to say. It’s hard to make an informed judgment if you only get one side of the story.
This was my thinking as well. It’s not like he had to stay for the whole conference but I think his personal (name removed by moderator)ut would have been a good idea. The LCWR doesn’t even know, as far as I have heard, **how **he intends to carry out his assignment. The public statement was simply that he had been given this responsibility.
 
I don’t give to the retirement fund for religious second collection because there are so many heterodox goddess-worshipping communities thinking that we want to pay for their retirement after their defiance. Nope. Not doing it. I only give to faithful ministries.
Thankfully, there are many faithful communities of women religious out there who I am sure could use your help. I am uncomfortable giving to large pools of money sometimes as well for the reasons you described. My wife and I try to make it a point that when we do not give to one of the collections at Mass, we donate to something else similar in nature, but to a group we are comfortable with.
I hope the Spirit blows renewal through the LCWR so that they have greater fidelity.
I pray that happens, and soon.

Peace,
 
While I do have major issues with Sister Patricia’s comments on questioning Church teachings, I don’t have a big problem with Archbishop Sartain not being there for the meeting. To be fair, their ability to have a frank and open discussion will probably be enhanced without him in the room.
I would agree, except for the LCWR’s condemnation of the Vatican process as “lacking transparency”.

It seems a bit hypocritical to not open their own processes up if they are trying to make that claim.
 
I would agree, except for the LCWR’s condemnation of the Vatican process as “lacking transparency”.

It seems a bit hypocritical to not open their own processes up if they are trying to make that claim.
Fair point.
 
My wife and I try to make it a point that when we do not give to one of the collections at Mass, we donate to something else similar in nature, but to a group we are comfortable with.

Peace,
I donate to St. Andrew the Apostle, Catholic Charities, Opus Dei and the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross Foundation (Santa Croce). Period. I’m likewise comfortable with where my money goes.
 
Futurist Addresses LCWR Assembly
In the first open session, the featured speaker, futurist Barbara Marx Hubbard, was led through the assembly hall at the Millennium Hotel by several sisters who were waving orange scarves draped over their arms.
Once on the stage, the sisters moved in a circle around Hubbard as they raised and lowered the scarves and the assembly was asked to extend their hands in blessing while singing, “Spirit of vision, Spirit of life! Spirit of courage, be with her now! Wisdom and Truth be on her lips!”
Hubbard is an engaging speaker, and she knew how to connect with her audience, though the futurist terminology she used left this journalist reaching for a dictionary to look up “noosphere,” “cosmo genesis,” synergistic convergence” and “Christification.”
Hubbard believes that we are at a critical time in humanity, a “tipping point” that will lead to either breakdown or evolutionary breakthrough. She made vague references throughout her talk to the “crisis” the LCWR was facing and encouraged the members by saying that breakthroughs often happen only after chaos or crisis. Furthermore, she proclaimed, the LCWR members were just the kind of people to lead humanity to this breakthrough because of their “evolutionary capacities” that had guided the organization over the past 40 years.
“So my conclusion is that you are the best seedbed I know for evolving the Church and the world in the 21st century,” Hubbard said.
“Almost all structures are top down,” Hubbard continued, giving the examples of nations, states, organized religions and corporations. “So what is needed today,” she continued, “is a radical reform of existing institutions from their top-down version.”
I might be wrong, but I believe she was talking about that elephant in the room, and if so, I have to think that is not what Jesus had in mind when he said “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my church.”
Maybe I’ll find out tomorrow, for Hubbard will offer her response to a panel on the topic of “Religious Life in the Future: What Might It Look Like?” with Tom Fox, publisher of National Catholic Reporter, Jamie Manson, a columnist for the Reporter, and Sister of Charity of Leavenworth Sister Jennifer Gordon, who is active in Giving Voice, an organization of younger sisters.
Stay tuned.
ncregister.com/blog/ann-carey/futurist-addresses-lcwr-assembly-on-day-1

wdtprs.com/blog/2012/08/lcwr-assembly-update-how-did-keynote-speaker-hubbard-do
 
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