Vatican 'Horrified' by Criticism from Germany ... Some even think the pope could resign

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Kaninchen said:
And conservatives if we’re European conservatives.

When we lived in America, the one thing I did was to keep my mouth shut about American politics (bit like I do on CAF - apart from joking about the language) despite having been something of an activist - a young Thatcherite when in the UK (I’ve mellowed a lot 🙂 ).

I came to the conclusion that it was ‘different planets’ in terms of discourse.
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Thatcherite?! You really ARE an American conservative! :eek:
 
Again guys, I challenge you

How is Angela Merkel a liberal in the American sense?
 
It seems like you two enjoy patting each other on the back and continuing with sarcastic comments. There is nothing wrong with Merkel asking for clarification if that was all it was. Because of her comments the situation was blown out of proportion where some actually asked for the Holy Father to resign which is utterly ridiculous. It may be true that because of what the Church does, there may be implications which were not intended. Nonetheless, the Church answers to no one. However, it was in good will that the Holy Father clarified his position more clearly.
 
BRZ said:
the Church answers to no one.
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w/ all rights come responsibilities. Whatever rights the church may have, these rights come with responsibilities. Like anyone else on earth, no matter how great his rights, the pope answers to the human community and the community of nations. No man is an island and no nation, state or church is an island. This is why Italy is just in enforcing certain environmental laws against the Vatican and past Vatican officials who went afoul of them even when the Vatican was not cooperative. I don’t know if their cooperation with the criminal charges and the issue of emissions from Vatican Radio has changed with the green papacy of Benedict XVI. But, I think this pope realizes that the church must respond to the concerns of the human community with the Vatican responding just a day after the German Chancellor’s chastisement and the pope giving a weaker response earlier and the pope also changing the liturgy at the request of Jews who had concerns about it. This pope listens more than some others and doesn’t say “I answer to no one!” or “My way or the highway!” or “No one but God can judge me!” and this is reflected also in how the head of the Vatican’s doctrinal office has been so far cooperative with responding to the summons of a U.S. court in a sex abuse case.

By your reasoning, the U.S. would answer to no one. No, we all answer to each other. The church is not superior to the state. We are all under G-d and all answerable to him if we don’t give due consideration to the opinions and concerns that we raise of each other, including of the pope. The church’s canon law 212.3 recognizes this; see above.
 
Kaninchen and grampben…I am confused. Why do you complain about anti-European sentiment and then proceed to aim snide, sarcastic remarks at us for several posts? Is this meant to show us that Europeans are kind and charitable? If that is so, you may wish to revise your strategy.

As to the discussion at hand…well…I do not enjoy discussing with people who are being needlessly sarcastic. Perhaps if we could bring about a more charitable tone we could have dialogue?

I don’t hate Europe, btw. I mean, my ancestors are from there (including from Ireland, of which I am proud). My favorite artists (Raphael, Caravaggio, and others) and composers (Mozart, Bach, Haydn, etc) were European. I also lived in Madrid for a time, which was very nice.

I have to admit, though, I do not agree with much of European politics.
 
Father_of_9 said:
It’s very apparent that the words from Merkel and others indicate their deep-seated resentment of the Catholic Church. Their blatant disrespect for the Pope and his actions is an attempt to silence him and other Church leaders so that they won’t criticize Merkel and other government leaders for their immoral actions.
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I agree. He shouldn’t step down. I don’t think members of other religions have any busniess telling our religion who can be reinstated and who can’t. It isn’t really their business.
 
Steeltemplar said:
Kaninchen and grampben…I am confused. Why do you complain about anti-European sentiment and then proceed to aim snide, sarcastic remarks at us for several posts? Is this meant to show us that Europeans are kind and charitable? If that is so, you may wish to revise your strategy.
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Where have I complained about anti-European sentiment?

On the other hand, I cannot see the harm in certain American posters learning a little about their world being treated in a dismissive style/way. Sauce for the goose and gander.
As to the discussion at hand…well…I do not enjoy discussing with people who are being needlessly sarcastic.
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But was the sarcasm needless?
 
vs_trumpet said:
w/ all rights come responsibilities. Whatever rights the church may have, these rights come with responsibilities. Like anyone else on earth, no matter how great his rights, the pope answers to the human community and the community of nations. No man is an island and no nation, state or church is an island. This is why Italy is just in enforcing certain environmental laws against the Vatican and past Vatican officials who went afoul of them even when the Vatican was not cooperative…By your reasoning, the U.S. would answer to no one. .
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So you do not believe in national sovreignty? We must all be a unified worldwide government utopia. The Vatican is a sovreign nation. This keeps meddlesome politicians from messing up the Church like the do their nations. You may not like it but the BRZ spoke truthfully. The Catholic Church is not accountable to anyone, self-appointed or otherwise.
 
pnewton said:
The Vatican is a sovreign nation.
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Which is why it has possibly the oldest and certainly one of the most legendary Diplomatic Services in history to practice the art of getting its own way as much as possible - just like other states.

The word ‘diplomatic’ ought to indicate something about the history of its interactions and one of the reasons why it’s generally been so successful. Talking about Angela Merkel in the way that she’s been spoken of here would, of course, be a recipe for failure.
 
Honestly, I don’t think we are a so called “World Community” at all.
Nations that have enough power seem to do whatever they want for the most part. Take for example when the U.S. attacked Iraq. Did President Bush really care what Germany or France had to say then?
That idea of world community is very much a European Notion. I don’t think Americans really see it that way and I don’t think that many other nations see it that way either.
Do you really see the U.N. as being all that effective when one Nation with veto power can null and void anything that it proposes? That is definitely a “World Community” at work.
That is not a criticism because I do not see the world as being a community in the way that they seem to think at all and to say that the Catholic church is beneath the state is utterly ridiculous.

What nonsense is this I am seeing when anything should be beneath the state. Sounds like Communism to me or perhaps Socialism because it definitely is not Democracy. For the people, by the people, that is Democracy. People are not beneath the state and neither is the Church. Keep holding onto these foolish worldly notions, however, they will get you nowhere.
 
This non-RC thinks that Merkel (and other politicians) need to keep their mouths shut, and stay out of the church’s business. It’s none of their concern.
 
LutheranDK said:
This non-RC thinks that Merkel (and other politicians) need to keep their mouths shut, and stay out of the church’s business. It’s none of their concern.
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Would you say that the Church should keep its mouth shut and stay out of the State’s business?
 
Kaninchen said:
Which is why it has possibly the oldest and certainly one of the most legendary Diplomatic Services in history to practice the art of getting its own way as much as possible - just like other states.

The word ‘diplomatic’ ought to indicate something about the history of its interactions and one of the reasons why it’s generally been so successful. Talking about Angela Merkel in the way that she’s been spoken of here would, of course, be a recipe for failure.
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You are right. It is just frustrating that the one time they are not deemed to be diplomatic enough for some, this past is forgotten by hypocritical politicians who could learn from the ones they so easily criticize.
 
Kaninchen, it seems you are not understanding the issue because you seem to be under the influence that the State is everything, again, this stinks of Socialism or Communism or some other form of these. The State is NOT everything and everything does not fall under it.
 
pnewton said:
You are right. It is just frustrating that the one time they are not deemed to be diplomatic enough for some, this past is forgotten by hypocritical politicians who could learn from the ones they so easily criticize.
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As an (obvious) outsider I’d say that this particular episode was an amazing lapse by one of the cleverest bureaucracies and diplomatic organizations in history - especially given that the current Pope is a ‘past master’ in the art. Perhaps they’ve been slow in getting their act together since he left his old post?
 
BRZ said:
Kaninchen, it seems you are not understanding the issue because you seem to be under the influence that the State is everything, again, this stinks of Socialism or Communism or some other form of these. The State is NOT everything and everything does not fall under it.
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Yes it’s well known that I’m a neo-Marxist seeking to impose a dictatorship of the proletariat on the United States.
 
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