Vice Presidential Debate

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Given that Obama was elected based on his rhetoric of “bringing the country together” and “there is not red America or blue America” pardon me if his ramming down the throat of America Obamacare bothers me.
What did you expect him to do? Only pass policy initiatives that everyone agrees on?
My issue is that Obama ran on "bringing the country together in an era of post partisanship, but ended up being the most partisan president ever.
Partisanship works both ways. See the political game the GOP was able to play? It’s the game the pundits said they should play from the beginning! All they had to do was oppose EVERYTHING Obama proposed, and if he tried to do anything they could claim it was non-partisan! The mission was to get Obama out of office in 2012 from day 1 of 2008.
Obama and congress “made no secret about their intentions” ?? Oh, did they tell us about the HHS mandate? How many of those who voted for Obamacare actually read the bill? I remember Pelosi saying, “we’ll find out what’s in the bill after it passes” or some such. You have no leg to stand on, Ibnfiktur. How democracy works is what you’ll see if/when the GOP regainst the presidency and the senate and they repeal Obamacare and by extension, the HHS mandate, which any Catholic should be alarmed about. Apparently you aren’t though.

Yes, you do sound like you support the administration. Do you support them and their attack on the Catholic church?
Strawman strawman strawman!

My feelings on the HHS mandate (totally negative I might add) have NOTHING to do with anything I have said here.

We’ve strayed far from the scope of this thread. My argument is essentially that the Romney/Ryan campaign has been taking cheap shots against an incumbent administration instead of approaching the campaign in a solution-based manner. I will probably be voting for them anyways.

My disgust with both campaigns is embodied by their horrendously inadequate responses to the final question in the VP debate. Starting at 1:19:15
 
Peggy Noonan on vice presidential debate, and she has criticised Romney/Ryan in the past
Another way to say it is the old man tried to patronize the kid and the kid stood his ground. The old man pushed, and the kid pushed back. Last week Mr. Obama was weirdly passive. Last night Mr. Biden was weirdly aggressive, if that is the right word for someone who grimaces, laughs derisively, interrupts, hectors, rolls his eyes, browbeats and attempts to bully. He meant to dominate, to seem strong and no-nonsense. Sometimes he did—he had his moments. But he was also disrespectful and full of bluster. “Oh, now you’re Jack Kennedy!” he snapped at one point. It was an echo of Lloyd Bentsen to Dan Quayle, in 1988. But Mr. Quayle, who had compared himself to Kennedy, had invited the insult. Mr. Ryan had not. It came from nowhere.Did Mr. Biden look good? No, he looked mean and second-rate. He meant to undercut Mr. Ryan, but he undercut himself. His grimaces and laughter were reminiscent of Al Gore’s sighs in 2000—theatrical, off-putting and in the end self-indicting. Mr. Ryan was generally earnest, fluid, somewhat wonky, confident. He occasionally teetered on the edge of glibness and sometimes fell off
 
All that is conjecture…the outcome remains to be seen.

John
If you think Romney is going to come out like milquetoast in the event Obama approaches future debates more aggressively, you are mistaken. Romney was a shark in the business world. That persona will undoubtedly prevail over the next two debates. Romney will continue his aggressive debate posture and double down, if necessary. Obama will be lucky to hold his own. If Romney wins the remaining debates by even the slightest of margins, the election is over. Under no circumstances can I see Obama winning a debate to the extent Romney won the first one. Obama was humiliated, trounced, reduced to a caricature. Romney is by far the more qualified candidate for the Oval Office.
 
No, not at all, Link0126. I am saying that I lost a lot of respect for VP Biden tonight.

And that gives me MORE reason to vote Romney / Ryan.

We need a two party system. We need a HEALTHY debate, pro and con on various issues. THEN 60 plus million American vote and we move on.

VP Biden’s performance tonight was NOT a healthy debate. He is accomplished so it was not a mistake. It was intentional.

I vote for those that best match my principles. I do NOT vote for those I think MAY win but rather who should win.

As a Catholic I am for social justice, but not for abortion or gay marriage. But social justice is not unlimited. We are $16 thousand billion dollars in debt and spending more than $1 trillion MORE than we are taking in in taxes each year. Getting the 'rich" to pay their fair share will NOT reduce that annual deficit by any useful amount.

America CAN go bankrupt. We need a President that is wanting to address this very real problem. President Obama is NOT that man.

Gov Romney has a reasonable plan to create jobs in the private sector. More people employed means more income and more income taxes without raising the tax rates. More people employed also means less demand for government support.
I agree that Biden’s performance was intentional. That performance was about the best he could do, given 4 years of fail.

If Ryan had just kept talking and looking forward while Biden was interrupting, Biden’s rude scheme would have been magnified. It would have been a more dignified, passive way to outclass Biden without losing his cool.

I wonder if Romney did well because he was gazing into the President’s eyes. Based on recent conjecture, gazing may be Obama’s kryptonite.
 
If you think Romney is going to come out like milquetoast in the event Obama approaches future debates more aggressively, you are mistaken. Romney was a shark in the business world. That persona will undoubtedly prevail over the next two debates. Romney will continue his aggressive debate posture and double down, if necessary. Obama will be lucky to hold his own. If Romney wins the remaining debates by even the slightest of margins, the election is over. Under no circumstances can I see Obama winning a debate to the extent Romney won the first one. Obama was humiliated, trounced, reduced to a caricature. Romney is by far the more qualified candidate for the Oval Office.
Totally agree. Obama has never been a great debater because he has a difficult time defending his record. Just look at the Univsion forum
 
I would have to watch the beginning of the Presidential debate again in order to give a good response to this. I do remember my gut reaction being extreme sympathy for Obama’s situation, though, throughout the debate.

Let me again clarify: I am not an Obamaphile. I do have a great deal of respect for the man as my commander in chief, and I’ve been very happy with how he’s handled foreign policy. Perhaps it’s the Marine in me that gets a little upset when someone gets in cheap potshots at the POTUS. With all this in mind, this was my reaction to the Presidential debate:

I saw an energized Romney slamming a tired Obama. I think most in the GOP saw that as a sign of Obama’s weakness and inability to stand on his record. I saw Obama as a guy whose real job was interrupted by politic-ing.

The SINGLE valid point that I remember sympathizing with Romney on was this: Why was the President spending all his political capital on Obamacare in the midst of a depressed economy? Other than that, I felt that most of his attacks were easy potshots, and because he spent so much time of this I remember nothing substantive about an economic plan. All I heard is “cut taxes, spend more money, close unnamed loopholes [fact check: not the biggest ones that could actually make a dent in the budget].”

Once again: not voting for them, don’t support many of their policies.

I agree that there is more substance now than there was a month ago, but I still don’t see it. Debate performances are all about every single thing that “this administration” has done wrong, all the way down to beating the horse of an intelligence failure (VP debate). Show me an administration without an intelligence failure. The government, military, and intelligence community are imperfect systems.
IbnFiktur admit to being too lazy to cut and paste appropriate sections but here is my overall response.

You said Romney trounced a "tired’ Obama. Why would he be tired? He hasn’t acted as President for months. Right after our Ambassador was killed he flew to Las Vegas and was smiling and telling jokes. Seemed pretty energized there. When world leaders were at the UN he couldn’t be bothered meeting with Netanyahu or other Middle East leaders although it was clearly a powder keg with violence, riots and the attack at Benghazi. But he had time to go on the view and talk about White House beer. And while at the UN he spoke of the YouTube video, not about AlQaeda.

Do you understand why people point this out? I don’t think it’s a cheap shot, I think it’s a valid criticism. Think back on past Presidents (my first memory was Kennedy so it does reach into the 60s). Did any of them spend so much time in frivolous activities, particularly when the economy was in the dumps, the Middle East was on fire, and we had a terrorist attack killing four Americans? I don’t think so. GB43’s spending made me crazy but I had complete confidence that he was doing everything he could to keep us safe. Obama’s lax attitude does not inspire that same confidence.

As to Obamacare, since this is my field I was involved daily, watching the legislation, the proposals from both sides and the process. The Republicans (and some Democrats) opposed Obamacare (and the Stimulus) BECAUSE IT WAS A BAD PIECE OF LEGISLATION. Somehow this meme has developed that because Mitch McConnell said his job was to get Obama out of office (as is the case with the opposition) that Republicans opposed poor legislation out of spite. Obamacare is a BAD BILL. It was shoved through with bribes and special back room deals, with false assurances that abortion wouldn’t be a part of it, and when Scott Brown was elected, using some questionable tactics.

As to working with Republicans, Obama has made a sport of setting them up to provide (name removed by moderator)ut, then taunting them with comments such as “Elections have consequences and I won.” Read Woodward’s book (his Obama’s War as well) and see how Obama and the Dems “worked with Republicans.” He worked them over…and the result was the drubbing in the 2010 election.

It’s admirable that you still want to give Obama the benefit of the doubt but I think what he’s done has been disastrous for the economy, healthcare, the debt/deficit, and frankly his foreign policy is naive at best. I think the Russians see us as “weak sauce” as do many in the Middle East. I am also dismayed that the pull out date for Afghanistan has emboldened the Taliban and frightened the Afghanis who were supporting us. I want out of Afghanistan,tomorrow if possible. But telling the enemy when you’re leaving is a set up for failure.

As to his war on the Church, I find it absolutely demoralizing that our first freedom is under attack so he can IMO pander to Big Feminism, one of his few remaining constituancies. Someone is bought and paid for and who cares more about their trivial demands than the Constitution should not be President of the United States.

I think Obama deserves to lose and I think Romney is well qualilfied by his experience and his temperament to deal with our economic issues particularly. So I don’t see this as “lesser of two evils” but the opportunity to get a failing President out the door and bring in someone whom I think can do a much better job.

It does amaze me that Obama still has supporters, other than the few niche groups to whom he has been loyal. For most of America he is an unmitigated disaster.

Lisa
 
IbnFiktur admit to being too lazy to cut and paste appropriate sections but here is my overall response.

You said Romney trounced a "tired’ Obama. Why would he be tired? He hasn’t acted as President for months. Right after our Ambassador was killed he flew to Las Vegas and was smiling and telling jokes. Seemed pretty energized there. When world leaders were at the UN he couldn’t be bothered meeting with Netanyahu or other Middle East leaders although it was clearly a powder keg with violence, riots and the attack at Benghazi. But he had time to go on the view and talk about White House beer. And while at the UN he spoke of the YouTube video, not about AlQaeda.

Do you understand why people point this out? I don’t think it’s a cheap shot, I think it’s a valid criticism. Think back on past Presidents (my first memory was Kennedy so it does reach into the 60s). Did any of them spend so much time in frivolous activities, particularly when the economy was in the dumps, the Middle East was on fire, and we had a terrorist attack killing four Americans? I don’t think so. GB43’s spending made me crazy but I had complete confidence that he was doing everything he could to keep us safe. Obama’s lax attitude does not inspire that same confidence.

As to Obamacare, since this is my field I was involved daily, watching the legislation, the proposals from both sides and the process. The Republicans (and some Democrats) opposed Obamacare (and the Stimulus) BECAUSE IT WAS A BAD PIECE OF LEGISLATION. Somehow this meme has developed that because Mitch McConnell said his job was to get Obama out of office (as is the case with the opposition) that Republicans opposed poor legislation out of spite. Obamacare is a BAD BILL. It was shoved through with bribes and special back room deals, with false assurances that abortion wouldn’t be a part of it, and when Scott Brown was elected, using some questionable tactics.

As to working with Republicans, Obama has made a sport of setting them up to provide (name removed by moderator)ut, then taunting them with comments such as “Elections have consequences and I won.” Read Woodward’s book (his Obama’s War as well) and see how Obama and the Dems “worked with Republicans.” He worked them over…and the result was the drubbing in the 2010 election.

It’s admirable that you still want to give Obama the benefit of the doubt but I think what he’s done has been disastrous for the economy, healthcare, the debt/deficit, and frankly his foreign policy is naive at best. I think the Russians see us as “weak sauce” as do many in the Middle East. I am also dismayed that the pull out date for Afghanistan has emboldened the Taliban and frightened the Afghanis who were supporting us. I want out of Afghanistan,tomorrow if possible. But telling the enemy when you’re leaving is a set up for failure.

As to his war on the Church, I find it absolutely demoralizing that our first freedom is under attack so he can IMO pander to Big Feminism, one of his few remaining constituancies. Someone is bought and paid for and who cares more about their trivial demands than the Constitution should not be President of the United States.

I think Obama deserves to lose and I think Romney is well qualilfied by his experience and his temperament to deal with our economic issues particularly. So I don’t see this as “lesser of two evils” but the opportunity to get a failing President out the door and bring in someone whom I think can do a much better job.

It does amaze me that Obama still has supporters, other than the few niche groups to whom he has been loyal. For most of America he is an unmitigated disaster.

Lisa
👍👍👍
 
Forgive me for repeating if said, in Wisconsin Biden pulled another one saying “Planned Parenthood doesn’t perform abortion.” Of course, this is false.

Maybe it’s only since 2000 but that party has become too obstinate for me.
 
Many here are the same people who said that Ryan would mop the floor with Biden.

Ooops,

John
Dems could admit Obama got beaten? You guys took it like a bunch of eight year old boys who got cheated in soccer. Every excuse was thrown out as to why your Messiah was so terrible, as opposed to realizing some people are just born that way.

You and Epan should continue to enjoy the polls that indicate you are in the minority. If you think Lieden won, by all means say so. But to post in a Lieden-like fashion and act arrogant because the majority of the people who watched either thought it was a wash, or thought Ryan won, is silly.

Besides, technically the debates winners are based on who moves the polls. When they start moving back towards Obama, come back and post.
 
Forgive me for repeating if said, in Wisconsin Biden pulled another one saying “Planned Parenthood doesn’t perform abortion.” Of course, this is false.

Maybe it’s only since 2000 but that party has become too obstinate for me.
It is becoming obvious to everyone watching, and the Bishops. that the only time Biden doesn’t lie is when he talks about how bad his and the President’s economy is.

I’m surprised he didn’t introduce himself in the debate as Jay Piden.
 
Hilarious poll results. Ryan got served his lunch. Caught and exposed in lie after lie. Cool to see an old catholic spank a younger one on national TV. If you don’t agree, just listen to the conservative crybaby response.

When Obama failed in the debate, demos admitted it. Republicans don’t quite have the integrity to admit Ryan’s failure. Sore losers.
epan while I admit to glee at Obama’s drubbing, I’m not blind. Please tell me about the “lies” told by Ryan? All of the post debate fact checking focused on Biden’s false statements, some of which are being walked back by the White House, others resulted in a dressing down by the USCCB. I can give you a list of Biden’s bull-arkey…show me yours and I’ll show you mine.

There were some polls saying Biden won, others saying Ryan won. I really don’t know how Biden scored higher other than in volume, interruptions (80+), and distracting behavior. I believe the latter was planned to either throw Ryan off (didn’t work) or to distract from Obama’s pathetic record, the questions about Benghazi and why Obama’s priorities seem to be appearing as “eye candy” rather than meeting with World Leaders.

In all sincerity please make a case for your man. The only blow he landed was with respect to Ryan accepting Stimulus money after voting against it. Certainly a rather political action rather than being “pure” regarding the Stimulus plan. I just don’t think he made any other points when telling the truth. If telling lies in a louder voice is the key to victory here, OK you win. OTOH again, other than citing polls that are contradicted by other polls, can you make a case for Biden?

Lisa
 
Strawman strawman strawman!

My feelings on the HHS mandate (totally negative I might add) have NOTHING to do with anything I have said here.

We’ve strayed far from the scope of this thread. My argument is essentially that the Romney/Ryan campaign has been taking cheap shots against an incumbent administration instead of approaching the campaign in a solution-based manner. I will probably be voting for them anyways.

My disgust with both campaigns is embodied by their horrendously inadequate responses to the final question in the VP debate. Starting at 1:19:15
No, its not a strawman to point out that if Obama had said that he would put in place policies which force the Catholic church to violate its conscience then he might well have lost in 2008. Why do you think the Democrats lost so heavily in the midterms, because people liked what Obama did in his first two years? Obama won in 2008 because of favorable circumstances and the press didn’t do its job in pointing out his radicalism. Instead, what put him over the top was that people could “make history” by voting for him and trust his vague " bringing the country together" rhetoric. And its not cheap shots to point out the failings of the Obama adminstration which are many. Your criticism of Romney/Ryan is unfair and way off base.

Ishii
 
epan while I admit to glee at Obama’s drubbing, I’m not blind. Please tell me about the “lies” told by Ryan? All of the post debate fact checking focused on Biden’s false statements, some of which are being walked back by the White House, others resulted in a dressing down by the USCCB. I can give you a list of Biden’s bull-arkey…show me yours and I’ll show you mine.

There were some polls saying Biden won, others saying Ryan won. I really don’t know how Biden scored higher other than in volume, interruptions (80+), and distracting behavior. I believe the latter was planned to either throw Ryan off (didn’t work) or to distract from Obama’s pathetic record, the questions about Benghazi and why Obama’s priorities seem to be appearing as “eye candy” rather than meeting with World Leaders.

In all sincerity please make a case for your man. The only blow he landed was with respect to Ryan accepting Stimulus money after voting against it. Certainly a rather political action rather than being “pure” regarding the Stimulus plan. I just don’t think he made any other points when telling the truth. If telling lies in a louder voice is the key to victory here, OK you win. OTOH again, other than citing polls that are contradicted by other polls, can you make a case for Biden?

Lisa
I’d love evidence Ryan lied, specifically. We know off the cuff that Biden lied about HHS mandate and the Church, as well as lying yesterday in WI about Planned Parenthood not doing abortion.

I’m not saying I fact checked everything either guy said, but for anyone who says Ryan lied, can you cite specifically what with evidence?
 
I’d love evidence Ryan lied, specifically. We know off the cuff that Biden lied about HHS mandate and the Church, as well as lying yesterday in WI about Planned Parenthood not doing abortion.

I’m not saying I fact checked everything either guy said, but for anyone who says Ryan lied, can you cite specifically what with evidence?
Agree…don’t know about Ryan’s lying during the debate. I remember one “fact checker” disputing Ryan’s comment regarding the ammount of fissile material in Iran. Then fact checker said it was only enough for one bomb rather than multiple bombs as Ryan claimed. I don’t believe Ryan would have deliberately lied about that but may have made a mistake in the figures.

OTOH Biden clearly made false statements…Planned Parenthood, the HHS Mandate, Benghazi, etc. I don’t know if it’s better to say he’s ignorant or that he lied. Either way the idea this either incompetent or dishonest man is a heartbeat away from the Presidency is really disturbing. I’ve never been a fan but seeing him ‘perform’ Wednesday was truly a cause for questioning Obama’s judgment in picking him and our concern for America’s future should he ever end up as POTUS. Hopefully both will be gone by the end of January 2013

Lisa
 
I’d love evidence Ryan lied, specifically. We know off the cuff that Biden lied about HHS mandate and the Church, as well as lying yesterday in WI about Planned Parenthood not doing abortion.

I’m not saying I fact checked everything either guy said, but for anyone who says Ryan lied, can you cite specifically what with evidence?
“The teacher never told you anything but white lies, but you never see the lies that you believe.” - Elvis Costello
 
If you think Romney is going to come out like milquetoast in the event Obama approaches future debates more aggressively, you are mistaken. Romney was a shark in the business world. That persona will undoubtedly prevail over the next two debates. Romney will continue his aggressive debate posture and double down, if necessary. Obama will be lucky to hold his own. If Romney wins the remaining debates by even the slightest of margins, the election is over. Under no circumstances can I see Obama winning a debate to the extent Romney won the first one. Obama was humiliated, trounced, reduced to a caricature. Romney is by far the more qualified candidate for the Oval Office.
Oh,but don’t forget,according to Obama,he was just holding beck,being too polite!:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Classless behavior is Paul Ryan telling a story about kids paralyzed in a car crash to a man who lost his wife and daughter in one.
Please explain how this example from Paul Ryan diminished the tragedy that the Biden family suffered. You lefties are grasping at straws blindfolded. There is no excuse for the disgusting Biden behavior, and you and everyone with a shred of decency should not attempt to deflect from that truth. :dts: Rob
 
Rep. Walden: Obama Will Be on the Attack in Tuesday Debate
President Barack Obama will come out aggressively in his next debate with Mitt Romney on Tuesday, Rep. Greg Walden of Oregon told Newsmax.TV.
Walden, who serves as the Deputy Majority Whip and chairman of the House Republican Leadership, said Obama will be “attacking anybody he can because he really can’t defend the policies of his own administration that has left the economy in a bit of a train wreck and driven up deficits to record levels, $16 trillion in debt.”
He added: “When your policies have been that bad of a failure, the tendency is to strike out and attack others who weren’t part of your policies and try and divert attention away from your own shortcomings.”
If Romney wins and the GOP keeps control of the House, Walden said Romney’s skills as a leader will help bring both sides together to get things done.
 
This from The Wall Street Journal article by James Taranto:
“Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength,” the longshoreman cum philosopher Eric Hoffer once observed. Hoffer died in 1983, so he probably wasn’t referring specifically to Joe Biden’s performance in last night’s debate. Still, the observation is fitting.
 
This from The Wall Street Journal article by James Taranto:
“Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength,” the longshoreman cum philosopher Eric Hoffer once observed. Hoffer died in 1983, so he probably wasn’t referring specifically to Joe Biden’s performance in last night’s debate. Still, the observation is fitting.
👍 I’ll have to remember that.
 
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