Wanting to be a Traditional Catholic(m)

[OraLabora]

If you mean human resources to make the Latin OF or Jubilate Deo the norm, I hardly doubt it. Two or three Popes have tried with no apparent success.

I meant the material resources. All the chant books required for a Latin OF and modern LOTH exist in current and licit form, adapted to the modern lectionaries for both the Mass and LOTH.

If one wants to learn to pray the LOTH in Gregorian chant for public or private use, the resources exist to do so.

If one wants to start a schola to sing Gregorian chant in the OF, the resources exist to do so.

I don’t understand the constant whining about lack of reverence or tradition in the OF.

Instead of whining, do something about it and join/form a schola! It’s what I did, and while we do encounter either a lack of interest and even hostility from some quarters, the opposite is also true and many parishes are keen to welcome us (we rotate around parishes of the diocese). So when we encounter hostility we simply shake the dust off our sandals and move on.

I too am getting sick over this imagined inferiority of the OF Mass.

 

[bobballen_18]

Some will say that the spiritual life is more important than a car and furniture. No doubt true but so is detachment and Americans seem obsessed with perfection. The saints all lived in reality, not concerned with perfection but with sufficiency.

If God dwells inside of you what more could you want? Any spirituality begins in the heart and no one can ever take away what’s inside your heart.

Are you kidding me? The saints were happy with “sufficiency”? Do you really think that? You’re right, “detachment” is most certainly necessary - detachment from worldly things. I would argue that the vast majority of those who prefer the EF of the Mass prefer it precisely because of the detachment from worldly things, because it lifts them up out of this world to further detach themselves from it.

What more could we want? Sheesh. There is nothing wrong with being “obsessed with perfection”, at least in the sense that we should always be striving for it. “Be ye perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect” from the Gospel of Matthew comes immediately to mind.

 

[ProVobis]

Touche.

You forget the ordo or the ordinary of the liturgy, as opposed to the propers and readings.

That’s the problem with translating to English, where many things translate to the same word. To a language which brags about its extensive vocabulary, yet leaves us with so much ambiguity and banality.

 

[ProVobis]

I meant the material resources. All the chant books required for a Latin OF and modern LOTH exist in current and licit form, adapted to the modern lectionaries for both the Mass and LOTH.

If one wants to learn to pray the LOTH in Gregorian chant for public or private use, the resources exist to do so.

If one wants to start a schola to sing Gregorian chant in the OF, the resources exist to do so.

I don’t understand the constant whining about lack of reverence or tradition in the OF.

Instead of whining, do something about it and join/form a schola! It’s what I did, and while we do encounter either a lack of interest and even hostility from some quarters, the opposite is also true and many parishes are keen to welcome us (we rotate around parishes of the diocese). So when we encounter hostility we simply shake the dust off our sandals and move on.

I too am getting sick over this imagined inferiority of the OF Mass.

Is there a reason why you’ve become so defensive over a form which statistically speaking overpowers the other form?

 

[OraLabora]

Are you kidding me? The saints were happy with “sufficiency”? Do you really think that? You’re right, “detachment” is most certainly necessary - detachment from worldly things. I would argue that the vast majority of those who prefer the EF of the Mass prefer it precisely because of the detachment from worldly things, because it lifts them up out of this world to further detach themselves from it.

What more could we want? Sheesh. There is nothing wrong with being “obsessed with perfection”, at least in the sense that we should always be striving for it. “Be ye perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect” from the Gospel of Matthew comes immediately to mind.

So the OF is somewhat less perfect and less detached?

The saints lived in the real world. Yes they were attached to perfection. Their OWN perfection. They understood that attaining “perfection” starts with their own conversion, not by wishing it on the world. For the imperfect world, they approached through prayer, not whining.

 

[TimothyH]

Are you kidding me? The saints were happy with “sufficiency”? Do you really think that? You’re right, “detachment” is most certainly necessary - detachment from worldly things. I would argue that the vast majority of those who prefer the EF of the Mass prefer it precisely because of the detachment from worldly things, because it lifts them up out of this world to further detach themselves from it.

What more could we want? Sheesh. There is nothing wrong with being “obsessed with perfection”, at least in the sense that we should always be striving for it. “Be ye perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect” from the Gospel of Matthew comes immediately to mind.

No, I’m not kidding.

I believe that liturgical perfectionism drives part of the tradtionalist movement. Note that I said part of, not all of. I’m not sure how big the part is but I’m sure it is there.

We all want beautiful liturgies and all want to give God the worship due him but when I hear someone say “I want to be a traditionalist” I sometimes wonder if they are really just expressing an unrealistic expectation of perfection. The liturgy is a perfect place for people to exercise their unrealistic expectations, demands even, for perfection. After all, what’s more important than the liturgy?

I’m a melancholic temperament - an idealistic perfectionist - and I know what its like to hold everything and everyone up to a standard of perfection. Life becomes a miserable series of disappointments. The biggest disappointment of all is one’s own self.

This disappointment is what drives people to switch parishes when they hear a hymn they don’t like or to post on CAF whenever a priest coughs or glances at his watch during Mass. It causes people to question the orthodoxy of a particular priest when he doesn’t live up to their standard of perfection. it causes some to search for the perfect elevation, the perfectly chanted preface, the perfect liturgical language, the perfect cantor…

The saints strived for perfection in the virtues but were not obsessed with perfection in every aspect of their life. For most, the more they progressed in holiness (virtue), the more they were able to realize how imperfect they really were.

-Tim-

 

[OraLabora]

No, I’m not kidding.

I believe that liturgical perfectionism drives part of the tradtionalist movement. Note that I said part of, not all of. I’m not sure how big the part is but I’m sure it is there.

We all want beautiful liturgies and all want to give God the worship due him but when I hear someone say “I want to be a traditionalist” I sometimes wonder if they are really just expressing an unrealistic expectation of perfection. The liturgy is a perfect place for people to exercise their unrealistic expectations, demands even, for perfection. After all, what’s more important than the liturgy?

I’m a melancholic temperament - an idealistic perfectionist - and I know what its like to hold everything and everyone up to a standard of perfection. Life becomes a miserable series of disappointments. The biggest disappointment of all is one’s own self.

This disappointment is what drives people to switch parishes when they hear a hymn they don’t like or to post on CAF whenever a priest coughs or glances at his watch during Mass. It causes people to question the orthodoxy of a particular priest when he doesn’t live up to their standard of perfection. it causes some to search for the perfect elevation, the perfectly chanted preface, the perfect liturgical language, the perfect cantor…

The saints strived for perfection in the virtues but were not obsessed with perfection in every aspect of their life. For most, the more they progressed in holiness (virtue), the more they were able to realize how imperfect they really were.

-Tim-

 

[R_H_Benson]

I haven’t read through all the posts, so I’m not sure if this has been mentioned already, but I would suggest this to the OP: read Summorum Pontificum and then see if there is enough interest among your fellow parishioners in the Extraordinary Form of Holy Mass. If so, ask you pastor if he would be willing to learn and offer the Traditional Mass at your parish. As a Catholic, you always have a right to the Extraordinary Form, and your pastor should respect this especially if you find a number of likeminded parishioners.

 

[R_H_Benson]

So the OF is somewhat less perfect and less detached?

The saints lived in the real world. Yes they were attached to perfection. Their OWN perfection. They understood that attaining “perfection” starts with their own conversion, not by wishing it on the world. For the imperfect world, they approached through prayer, not whining.

Since you often post in threads discussing the OF and the EF, I would encourage you to at least attend ONE Mass in the Extraordinary Form so as to help you in your ability to speak with authority on the matter. Also, it may be helpful to keep in mind that very, very few of us have access to the reverently celebrated OF Masses that you so often post about. Unfortunately, OF Masses celebrated in such a manner are the exception to the norm, at least where I come from.

 

[TimothyH]

Since you often post in threads discussing the OF and the EF, I would encourage you to at least attend ONE Mass in the Extraordinary Form so as to help you in your ability to speak with authority on the matter. Also, it may be helpful to keep in mind that very, very few of us have access to the reverently celebrated OF Masses that you so often post about. Unfortunately, OF Masses celebrated in such a manner are the exception to the norm, at least where I come from.

May I ask where you are from? You don’t have to name parishes but what area, province or state?

-Tim-

 

[OraLabora]

Since you often post in threads discussing the OF and the EF, I would encourage you to at least attend ONE Mass in the Extraordinary Form so as to help you in your ability to speak with authority on the matter. .

I live in a rural area and an EF Mass, within reasonable driving distance, simply isn’t available here (at least non-SSPX). Meanwhile there’s YouTube…

Also, it may be helpful to keep in mind that very, very few of us have access to the reverently celebrated OF Masses that you so often post about. Unfortunately, OF Masses celebrated in such a manner are the exception to the norm, at least where I come from.

Yes I understand this is true in many areas, including my own (apart from two local monasteries, one Benedictine, the one I’m attached to, and one Cistercian of the Common Observance. I’ve been to Mass at both, both reverent, the Cistercian one is entirely in the vernacular with sung propers, the Benedictine one uses Latin for the Propers and Ordinary).

However it is within the ability of everyone to be an agent of change in a parish or diocese. If the same energy used to petition for an EF Mass were applied to getting a more reverent OF Mass I’m sure that the result would be palpable in due time. Doing something about it is as close as participating in music ministry or liturgical committees, or doing what I did by forming/joining a schola. Ours has now existed for some 20 years (I joined it 13 years ago).

I therefore respectfully suggest that this continual sniping at the OF has something else underlying it besides just a desire for more reverence.

 

[R_H_Benson]

May I ask where you are from? You don’t have to name parishes but what area, province or state?

-Tim-

I am from southeastern PA

 

[R_H_Benson]

Yes I understand this is true in many areas, including my own (apart from two local monasteries, one Benedictine, the one I’m attached to, and one Cistercian of the Common Observance. I’ve been to Mass at both, both reverent, the Cistercian one is entirely in the vernacular with sung propers, the Benedictine one uses Latin for the Propers and Ordinary).

However it is within the ability of everyone to be an agent of change in a parish or diocese. If the same energy used to petition for an EF Mass were applied to getting a more reverent OF Mass I’m sure that the result would be palpable in due time. Doing something about it is as close as participating in music ministry or liturgical committees, or doing what I did by forming/joining a schola. Ours has now existed for some 20 years (I joined it 13 years ago).

I therefore respectfully suggest that this continual sniping at the OF has something else underlying it besides just a desire for more reverence.

You are very lucky to have such beautiful OF Masses nearby. As for me, I have watched several very reverent OF Masses on YouTube. Those videos really do give a sense of how, when properly celebrated, the OF is truly beautiful.

May I inquire why you favor attempting to foster a more reverent OF Mass at a parish rather than petitioning for EF Masses?

Let me offer a reason for why many might choose to attend an EF Mass, rather than attempt to “reform” their own parish’s OF Mass. I believe that many, myself included, are strongly attracted to the tradition of the Old Mass. The thought of the saints who offered and assisted at this very form of the Mass - who said the very same prayers, made the same gestures, and saw the same sights - makes me feel connected to our Church’s tradition in a way that the OF cannot. Please do not take this as an insult to the OF. I do not mean it in that way at all. I am just offering a possible reason for why many (by no means all) who crave tradition tend to lean toward the EF Mass rather than towards a more reverent OF.

 

[bobballen_18]

So the OF is somewhat less perfect and less detached?

The saints lived in the real world. Yes they were attached to perfection. Their OWN perfection. They understood that attaining “perfection” starts with their own conversion, not by wishing it on the world. For the imperfect world, they approached through prayer, not whining.

No, that’s not what I said about the OF, though I understand how you think I implied that. All I was saying was that generally, for those individuals who do prefer the EF, they are able to become more fully detached from this world, and in a sense lifted into Heaven while at an EF Mass, compared to an OF Mass.

Perhaps I shouldn’t have mentioned the EF in that context since it caused a misunderstanding. My main point was actually to express my bewilderment at Timothy’s comment that the saints were “not concerned with perfection but with sufficiency”. I would argue there could be nothing further from the truth!

You’re correct, of course, that inner conversion is what sets one on the path to perfection, to striving for that holiness which God desires of all souls. At some point, though, unless one becomes a cloistered nun or monk, one who is truly converted must share the Good News, but also their experiences and encounters with the Lord. Obviously one can experience God in different ways, but personally, my greatest encounters with God are at Mass (or Adoration), in the direct presence of the Lord. To take that a step further, my greatest encounters within the Liturgy were had at an EF Mass. I would be lying if I said I haven’t had some wonderful experiences at OF Masses as well - I have - but overwhelmingly I have experienced the Lord’s presence in me and in front of me in the deepest way at the EF Mass. This is why I hope, until the day I die, I will always, always look to expose people to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, as Pope Benedict desired to be done anyway when he said there should be at least one EF Mass at every parish. I will always, always look to change the (current prevalent, negative) attitude of many Catholics today towards the EF. I will always as part of my evangelization invite people to an EF Mass.

Since the EF is just as a legitimate form of the Roman Rite, yet the majority of Catholics have never even heard of it or been to an EF Mass, I see this as a big problem. I don’t care that the OF Mass is, well, the “Ordinary” Form - I will work until the day that I die, if I need to, to expose people to (at least nearly) the same Mass which the majority of Catholics before 1965-70 experienced in the whole existence of the Catholic Church. At the very least, even if one hates the EF Mass after being exposed to it (though that is a problem in itself, obviously), greater understanding of the EF Mass will inevitably lead to greater understanding of the OF of the Mass.

Who knows, maybe I’m just this fiery 23-year old who just wants to argue with everyone, and this will die down within me in the next few years, but I highly doubt it. If everyone believes, as they should, that they OF and EF are two legitimate expressions of one rite of Catholicism, and that the OF is a continuation of the EF, one should always support greater knowledge of what came before.

 

[OraLabora]

You are very lucky to have such beautiful OF Masses nearby. As for me, I have watched several very reverent OF Masses on YouTube. Those videos really do give a sense of how, when properly celebrated, the OF is truly beautiful.

May I inquire why you favor attempting to foster a more reverent OF Mass at a parish rather than petitioning for EF Masses?

Let me offer a reason for why many might choose to attend an EF Mass, rather than attempt to “reform” their own parish’s OF Mass. I believe that many, myself included, are strongly attracted to the tradition of the Old Mass. The thought of the saints who offered and assisted at this very form of the Mass - who said the very same prayers, made the same gestures, and saw the same sights - makes me feel connected to our Church’s tradition in a way that the OF cannot. Please do not take this as an insult to the OF. I do not mean it in that way at all. I am just offering a possible reason for why many (by no means all) who crave tradition tend to lean toward the EF Mass rather than towards a more reverent OF.

I can certainly understand a preference for the EF.

But you ask why I attempt to foster a more reverent OF. Isn’t that self-explanatory? Rome has set out what it expects for the OF, in Sacrosanctum Concilium, and by its own liturgical practices at the Vatican. Why wouldn’t we want that applied to the OF across the board? Rome has moreover said that the OF is the “ordinary” that is, the customary form of the Mass. Improving the OF is thus going to reach out to and nourish a greater number of faithful. And I think that the mind of Benedict XVI with his talk of “reform of the reform” was just that.

Some places took the OF and ran with it. Witness the monasteries of the Solesmes Congregation, of which mine is one. It would probably be unrealistic to expect every parish to be as liturgically perfectionist; surely not even every EF can be a Missa Cantata or sung High Mass and surely there were, in the pre-Vatican II days, some sloppily-executed Masses.

Religious communities show us an example of what can be done. I’ve been to an ad orientem OF Mass entirely in Latin at the abbey of Monte Cassino in Italy, and I’ve been to a very quiet, spoken but faithful to the rubrics OF weekday Mass at St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal; it was a 7 am Mass I regularly attended; communion rail in place, and communion on knees and tongue if desired. In winter I would enter the church in the dark about a half hour before Mass, pray the Office of Readings in my LOTH, pray on the tomb of St. André Bessette (then a Blessed), and leave at dawn just as the day was breaking out over Montreal at my feet (the Oratory is on Mount Royal in the middle of Montreal). In the summer, I would pray the Office before Mass, in the Stations of the Cross garden just after it opened. The spiritual impact of that was incredible. What a way to start the day!

You see it has nothing to do with the form of the Mass, but just how open our hearts are to letting Christ in, and in finding Him in the oddest places. When we get caught up in liturgical minutiae, we often end up building a wall that prevents Christ from entering.

This past Sunday we had a remarkable homily from a visiting bishop from Chad (it was a 25 minute homily, riveting for every second). Besides hearing about their having to deal with Boko Haram on a daily basis, which certainly puts our issues into perspective, he said that the Eucharist, without getting to first know Christ through the Word, can become just an empty ritual that we end up viewing as a magic spell if we’re not careful. It really put into perspective what counts: our own inner conversion to conform our will to Christ’s.

Many saints, BTW, did not pray the Tridentine Mass as you know it. Besides some religious communities that maintained their own rites after Trent, there were other rites that continued alongside to this day. To name a few, the Carthusians, the Mozarabic and Ambrosian rites that are all considerably different than the Tridentine, that have been prayed through the centuries. Moreover many saints before Trent would have prayed in the many rites that existed then, before Trent standardized on the Tridentine rite that we now know; examples would be the Beneventan or Sarum Rites. There was a lot more variety in the Church than many people know about. The saints became saints not because of the Mass they celebrated or assisted at, but because of what they did with their own lives.

 

[pianistclare]

No, that’s not what I said about the OF, though I understand how you think I implied that. All I was saying was that generally, for those individuals who do prefer the EF, they are able to become more fully detached from this world, and in a sense lifted into Heaven while at an EF Mass, compared to an OF Mass.

Perhaps I shouldn’t have mentioned the EF in that context since it caused a misunderstanding. My main point was actually to express my bewilderment at Timothy’s comment that the saints were “not concerned with perfection but with sufficiency”. I would argue there could be nothing further from the truth!

You’re correct, of course, that inner conversion is what sets one on the path to perfection, to striving for that holiness which God desires of all souls. At some point, though, unless one becomes a cloistered nun or monk, one who is truly converted must share the Good News, but also their experiences and encounters with the Lord. Obviously one can experience God in different ways, but personally, my greatest encounters with God are at Mass (or Adoration), in the direct presence of the Lord. To take that a step further, my greatest encounters within the Liturgy were had at an EF Mass. I would be lying if I said I haven’t had some wonderful experiences at OF Masses as well - I have - but overwhelmingly I have experienced the Lord’s presence in me and in front of me in the deepest way at the EF Mass. This is why I hope, until the day I die, I will always, always look to expose people to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, as Pope Benedict desired to be done anyway when he said there should be at least one EF Mass at every parish. I will always, always look to change the (current prevalent, negative) attitude of many Catholics today towards the EF. I will always as part of my evangelization invite people to an EF Mass.

Since the EF is just as a legitimate form of the Roman Rite, yet the majority of Catholics have never even heard of it or been to an EF Mass, I see this as a big problem. I don’t care that the OF Mass is, well, the “Ordinary” Form - I will work until the day that I die, if I need to, to expose people to (at least nearly) the same Mass which the majority of Catholics before 1965-70 experienced in the whole existence of the Catholic Church. At the very least, even if one hates the EF Mass after being exposed to it (though that is a problem in itself, obviously), greater understanding of the EF Mass will inevitably lead to greater understanding of the OF of the Mass.

Who knows, maybe I’m just this fiery 23-year old who just wants to argue with everyone, and this will die down within me in the next few years, but I highly doubt it. If everyone believes, as they should, that they OF and EF are two legitimate expressions of one rite of Catholicism, and that the OF is a continuation of the EF, one should always support greater knowledge of what came before.

I don’t think it behooves either side to make sweeping generalizations like
“individuals who do prefer the EF, … are able to become more fully detached from this world”.

I don’t think either option gives on the ability to peer into another’s soul.

I don’t like to pray in Latin, It’s not my native tongue.
The fact that some see this is a great flaw in me is distressing. Just like the people who don’t understand why there are Masses in Spanish. People want to pray in their own tongue.
People who talk a lot about reverence should also be concerned with charity toward others.
It’s just a very disturbing trend on the boards when one side feels superior and the other has to constantly defend itself. I don’t go to the EF. Not because I don’t know where to find one or I don’t want to drive there. That’s ridiculous.
I go to my parish. I work at a parish. I’m very happy here. It’s OK, really. No one needs to worry about me. I’ll let my confessor,Spiritual Director and Guardian Angel do that.

Maybe it’s your age, and you feel all warm and fuzzy about it.
But as a person who grew up with the Latin Mass, and was told sit still and be quiet…
I’ll take the English. Things were never the way people so romantically remember them.

 

[OraLabora]

I don’t think it behooves either side to make sweeping generalizations like
“individuals who do prefer the EF, … are able to become more fully detached from this world”.

I don’t think either option gives on the ability to peer into another’s soul.

I don’t like to pray in Latin, It’s not my native tongue.
The fact that some see this is a great flaw in me is distressing. Just like the people who don’t understand why there are Masses in Spanish. People want to pray in their own tongue.
People who talk a lot about reverence should also be concerned with charity toward others.
It’s just a very disturbing trend on the boards when one side feels superior and the other has to constantly defend itself. I don’t go to the EF. Not because I don’t know where to find one or I don’t want to drive there. That’s ridiculous.
I go to my parish. I work at a parish. I’m very happy here. It’s OK, really. No one needs to worry about me. I’ll let my confessor,Spiritual Director and Guardian Angel do that.

Maybe it’s your age, and you feel all warm and fuzzy about it.
But as a person who grew up with the Latin Mass, and was told sit still and be quiet…
I’ll take the English. Things were never the way people so romantically remember them.

This brings to mind another part of the bishop’s homily. The bishop was a Canadian who has worked in Chad for 45 years and has been bishop there fore 38 of those years, Mgr. Jean-Claude Bouchard, OMI. He said one of the things he deplored about the Church’s actions in Africa, was the imposition of Western European culture on Africans and patronizing Africans. He also said that contrary to what we think about the Church’s vibrancy in Africa, he is already seeing the first signs of young people bailing as they become more and more attached to their electronic gizmos and the Internet, as they become more widely available. It’s a slow trend, but he mentioned for example the difficulty in finding young people to be catechists to replace the older ones that become too frail or pass away.

As for my age, I’m a battle-weary 57 y.o. who has come to realize it’s not the trappings of the faith that matter, it is the conversion of the heart and doing what Christ commands us to do, in particularly in Matthew chapter 25… and to do it from the heart, and that Christ can truly be found not only physically in the Eucharist, but in other people no matter how imperfect they are.

 

[R_H_Benson]

It’s just a very disturbing trend on the boards when one side feels superior and the other has to constantly defend itself.

On these boards, more often than not it is those attached to the Extraordinary Form who have to defend themselves. And when the opposite is true, in most cases, the threads are promptly deleted.

 

[bobballen_18]

No, I’m not kidding.

I believe that liturgical perfectionism drives part of the tradtionalist movement. Note that I said part of, not all of. I’m not sure how big the part is but I’m sure it is there.

We all want beautiful liturgies and all want to give God the worship due him but when I hear someone say “I want to be a traditionalist” I sometimes wonder if they are really just expressing an unrealistic expectation of perfection. The liturgy is a perfect place for people to exercise their unrealistic expectations, demands even, for perfection. After all, what’s more important than the liturgy?

I’m a melancholic temperament - an idealistic perfectionist - and I know what its like to hold everything and everyone up to a standard of perfection. Life becomes a miserable series of disappointments. The biggest disappointment of all is one’s own self.

This disappointment is what drives people to switch parishes when they hear a hymn they don’t like or to post on CAF whenever a priest coughs or glances at his watch during Mass. It causes people to question the orthodoxy of a particular priest when he doesn’t live up to their standard of perfection. it causes some to search for the perfect elevation, the perfectly chanted preface, the perfect liturgical language, the perfect cantor…

The saints strived for perfection in the virtues but were not obsessed with perfection in every aspect of their life. For most, the more they progressed in holiness (virtue), the more they were able to realize how imperfect they really were.

-Tim-

You’re very likely correct that “liturgical perfectionism” is one factor in the “traditionalist” movement. You know what? I don’t see the issue with that. I was just at Mass Saturday evening at my parish, and the diocesan head of Liturgy (sorry, I can’t think of the official name for it off the top of my head) said something which really resonated with me. He quoted it from a Vatican document, too (and again, unfortunately I can’t think of which one it was): “the faithful have the right to a Mass celebrated according to the mind of the Church.” Whether one prefers the OF or the EF, that’s putting an awful lot of emphasis on the Liturgy. But this makes perfect sense to me, to put so much emphasis on the Liturgy. The Liturgy is the context in which the Eucharist is confected; the context in which we receive our Lord and Savior into our souls. And the Eucharist is the source and summit of our lives, to quote a certain someone. The Liturgy is man’s ultimate worship of God; and it is our worship which God has commanded us to do, in a particular way, through the church! What, then, given the importance of the Liturgy and the Eucharist, is the deal with not wanting only the best? What’s wrong with desiring for and striving for the ideal? All of the “options” which the Church provides for within the Liturgy are only supposed to be exceptions, not the norm. The Church has certain preferences; all parishes should have as their goal these preferences. So even aside from which form of the Mass one prefers, the Liturgy is a huge deal, and therefore I would claim there is absolutely nothing wrong with faithful “clamoring” for a good, reverent Liturgy which reflects the mind of the Church with regards to how it is celebrated; indeed, all the faithful should demand such, especially if they have a right to it.

Haha, I’m melancholic too, in case my fiery arguments which basically expose my desire for perfection haven’t given that away! You mention a number of things which could currently drive people to switch parishes. Obviously it is possible to go too far. Switching parishes simply because a priest checked his watch would obviously be a little over the top! Obviously we must recognize that priests and all people are, well, human, and that all humans make mistakes. It is clear, though, that in a number of parishes today, either out of ignorance or plain indifference, some priests and some laypeople simply do not care to strive to think with the mind of the Church, and therefore it doesn’t even cross their mind to “demand” certain things to which they have a right. There is a very, very harmful “everything goes” attitude among many Catholics (which is no doubt caused by secular society’s same attitude) today. NO, everything is not fine - yes, we are not perfect, but there’s no reason to be not actively working toward the ideals and preferences of the Church. There’s gotta be a happy medium between obsessively disparaging everyone’s mistakes, and saying “oh people make mistakes so everything goes”.

I still 100% disagree with you that the saints did not strive for perfection in every aspect of their lives. Sure, they failed at times, and you’re obviously correct that the more one grows in holiness, the more one sees one’s own faults - but the notion that the holiest people to live on this earth did not strive to better oneself in every area of life is to me absurd. Striving for perfection in the virtues will inevitably lead one to greater perfection of all areas of life.

 

[pianistclare]

On these boards, more often than not it is those attached to the Extraordinary Form who have to defend themselves. And when the opposite is true, in most cases, the threads are promptly deleted.

Ok, ok I’ll leave.