Sure we can.
One can readily deny God and continue to do so until death.
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One can readily deny God and continue to do so until death.
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Bahman
Guest
Yes, the denial can only be temporary. Consider the church case that they didn’t accept the fact that the earth moving around the sun and not vice versa. Now, they accept the truth.You are obviously ignoring the many, many, many times in human history where someone simply ignored the facts and accepted as truth whatever they wanted it to be.
We as rational being can only accept an state of affair if it is supported by facts and it is anomaly free. Otherwise you are not honest with yourself. That is the lesson we learn form scientists effort for centuries.
Being rational doesn’t mean always recognizing the truth. It only means being capable of rational thinking, which doesn’t always lead to the truth***.
Science is constantly subject to revision depending on the experiment. That is true because scientists accept the fact that they can only find truth through scientific method gradually.A simple look at where science went wrong through the ages will tell you that.
Or the many people that die in denial of truth.Yes, the denial can only be temporary. Consider the church case that they didn’t accept the fact that the earth moving around the sun and not vice versa. Now, they accept the truth.
Perhaps i am supposed to only look at the evidence for the claim and ignore the evidence that refutes it?
Of course the case mentioned above has problems as ‘they’ is poorly defined.
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Bahman
Guest
You can either kill yourself or put yourself in a condition that other people kill you. There is no a huge difference.That’s true, but that still doesn’t make his death a suicide.
What was the point?No I can’t justify it. God did.
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Bahman
Guest
There is no fact to approve God’s existence. Do you have any fact?Sure we can.
One can readily deny God and continue to do so until death.
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davidv
Guest
Thomas Aquinas’ Five Ways.There is no fact to approve God’s existence. Do you have any fact?
Yes.There is no fact to approve God’s existence. Do you have any fact?
But they are facts you will not accept.
One of us is right.
One of us is wrong.
And both could go to our grave in this condition.
Denial can be permanent.
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Bahman
Guest
What do you mean?Or the many people that die in denial of truth.
I don’t understand what do you mean?Perhaps i am supposed to only look at the evidence for the claim and ignore the evidence that refutes it?
What is the problem?Of course the case mentioned above has problems as ‘they’ is poorly defined.
False dichotomy.You can either kill yourself or put yourself in a condition that other people kill you. There is no a huge difference.
There are many other ways to die.
Really?What do you mean?
I don’t understand what do you mean?
What is the problem?
You discuss high minded ideas and stumble over plain spoken refutation?
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Bahman
Guest
They are not facts. They are simply logical statements based on premises. You can simply doubt the premises such as the reality of causality.Thomas Aquinas’ Five Ways.
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Bahman
Guest
What is the fact? Please tell me.Yes.
But they are facts you will not accept.
That is correct. Suppose that I am wrong. Can you convince me that there is a fact for God’s existence?One of us is right.
One of us is wrong.
That is correct too.And both could go to our grave in this condition.
That simply doesn’t follow since you didn’t provide and fact to me!Denial can be permanent.
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davidv
Guest
You can, and have, simply doubted many things presented here. So what? Is everything that you rejected untrue? Not likely. Or was it simply not in agreement with your opinion? If the latter, this is in fact, evidence that truth can be obstinately rejected.They are not facts. They are simply logical statements based on premises. You can simply doubt the premises such as the reality of causality.
So, my guess is that you have not proven any of the premise of the five ways to be untrue. You have simply doubted them and stopped analyzing them.
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Bahman
Guest
That is not true.False dichotomy.
That is true but in the case of Jesus, He has to die on the cross as a part of plan. He knew that He would be killed. He had the power to convince the Judge because He was God but He refuse it.There are many other ways to die.
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Bahman
Guest
I have threads for all five ways. You can find them in this forum and we can discuss them.You can, and have, simply doubted many things presented here. So what? Is everything that you rejected untrue? Not likely. Or was it simply not in agreement with your opinion? If the latter, this is in fact, evidence that truth can be obstinately rejected.
So, my guess is that you have not proven any of the premise of the five ways to be untrue. You have simply doubted them and stopped analyzing them.
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Bahman
Guest
Yes, I really don’t understand your point.Really?
That is not true.You discuss high minded ideas and stumble over plain spoken refutation?
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Usagi
Guest
That took numerous human lifetimes. I rather hope you’re right over the long haul, but individual people can live their whole lives embracing an error even with facts staring them in the face. Indeed, research suggests that presenting contradictory facts to people whose minds are made up often strengthens their convictions!Yes, the denial can only be temporary. Consider the church case that they didn’t accept the fact that the earth moving around the sun and not vice versa. Now, they accept the truth.
You say there are no facts in evidence for the existence of God. Yet you are on a board dominated by believers, some of whom will die secure in their beliefs. Does not that itself refute the idea that denial cannot be permanent on a human scale?
In Jesus’ case, the authorities only had to maintain their stubbornness long enough to kill Him. Heck, by the Gospel account, Pilate did know Jesus was innocent, but executed Him anyway to maintain his political position. The rational course being followed by Caiaphas and Herod was “This guy is a threat to me; I should take this opportunity to get rid of Him.” Whether His claims were true or false was not relevant to them. Herod’s father, according to the Gospel, tried to have Jesus killed because the magi claimed to have evidence He was the Messiah and therefore a more rightful ruler than Herod.
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LethalMouse
Guest
Yeah, it is. It is the main theme of all your 80million threads…Yes, I really don’t understand your point.
That is not true.
P
PNEUMA
Guest
Because he had a greater miracle in mind, his resurrection.This is a well accepted fact among Christian that Jesus was able to perform miracles. Why then Jesus didn’t perform a miracle in the court to convince the judge that He is God so he save his life and continue his teaching?
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Bahman
Guest
I don’t understand how that could be true (bold part) considering the fact that human are rational beings.That took numerous human lifetimes. I rather hope you’re right over the long haul, but individual people can live their whole lives embracing an error even with facts staring them in the face. Indeed, research suggests that presenting contradictory facts to people whose minds are made up often strengthens their convictions!
I think we have to be honest with ourselves to make sure that we don’t refuse facts permanently. That is simple mental exercise which allows us to understand ourselves and our believes otherwise we could simply be trapped in a wrong system of belief.You say there are no facts in evidence for the existence of God. Yet you are on a board dominated by believers, some of whom will die secure in their beliefs. Does not that itself refute the idea that denial cannot be permanent on a human scale?
Are you sure that you are judging Pilate and Herod correctly? This seems to me that you are able to be inside their minds.In Jesus’ case, the authorities only had to maintain their stubbornness long enough to kill Him. Heck, by the Gospel account, Pilate did know Jesus was innocent, but executed Him anyway to maintain his political position. The rational course being followed by Caiaphas and Herod was “This guy is a threat to me; I should take this opportunity to get rid of Him.” Whether His claims were true or false was not relevant to them. Herod’s father, according to the Gospel, tried to have Jesus killed because the magi claimed to have evidence He was the Messiah and therefore a more rightful ruler than Herod.
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