Was Judas Iscariot a Bishop?

[Cathoholic]

Cathoholic to EndTimes . . . .

Jesus is the High Priest.
Do you think Jesus was a bishop in addition?

EndTimes response?

“Nope”.

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Sacred Scripture . . .

1st PETER 2:24-25 24 He (Jesus) himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian (Greek = episkopos - this us where we get the word “bishop” or “Episcopal office” from) of your souls.

Parenthetical addition mine for context.

 

[Cathoholic]

The context . . . .

ACTS 1:20 (DRV) 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

Here is the RSVCE using the word “office” (the Greek word is episcopoi [episcopen] as in “episcopal office” which merely means “bishops office”).

ACTS 1:20 (RSVCE) 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it’; and ‘His office let another take.’

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The discussion . . .

@tafan2 . . .

I certainly hold to the view Judas was not a Bishop.

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Cathoholic (With minor) spelling correction. . . .

Yet Judas was described in Acts 1:20 as holding an episcopoi (“episcopen”) that had to have been conferred upon him when he was alive.

He was an episcopal office holder. He was a bishop.

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tafan2 . . .

A Bishop is an office of the Church, until the Church existed, there were no bishops. Of course Apostles could be bishops,but there was a timing involved.

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Cathoholic . . .

OK.

WHEN did the Apostles become Bishops in your estimation?

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tafan2 . . .

I had always assumed it was after the resurrection, John 20:21-23, when Jesus said he was sending them, he breathed in them, and gave them the power to forgive sins. Judas was certainly not present.

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You are correct tafan2 in that Judas was NOT PRESENT there (he was almost certainly dead).

Yet Judas was described as an office holder.
Judas was specifically described as as “episcopen”.
Judas is explicitly described as holding a bishop’s office.

How do you reconcile this with your assumption ("I had always assumed . . . ") of conferring the office of bishop to the Apostles in the upper Room AFTER the Resurrection with Judas absent? (And was St. Thomas - doubting Thomas - NOT ordained here also? – As he too was absent.)

 

[EndTimes]

I had always assumed it was after the resurrection, John 20:21-23, when Jesus said he was sending them, he breathed in them, and gave them the power to forgive sins. Judas was certainly not present.

Yep…Judas was an Apostle and never a bishop.

It’s APOSTLESHIP. . !

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Sacred Scripture . . .

24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know the hearts of all. Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to assume the task of this service and Apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

26 Then they cast lots for them, and the one chosen was Matthias;
so he was counted with the eleven Apostles.

 

[Cathoholic]

Using that logic @EndTimes, they couldn’t be “priests” either because after all, they were “Apostles”.

Good grief.

#either/orcreationofafalsedilemma

 

[Cathoholic]

tafan2. . .

until the Church existed, there were no bishops . . .

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One other thing tafan2.

The Church existed.

Jesus and His disciples were Baptizing people into the Church that was already conceived (yet not birthed - they proclaimed the Gospel before even being birthed, John The Baptist did in a sense too - Luke 1:41) in John 4:1-2.

JOHN 4:1-2 1 Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples) . . .

When you are Baptized you get Baptized into Christ.
But you ALSO get Baptized into the Church.

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Jesus’ Apostles were also anointing the sick. This suggests they were already at least priests as non-priests cannot anoint the sick. (Preaching the Gospel, at least in some sense, is a Priestly function too by the way. Having Ministerial Priests = Having a Church to have such Priests.)

MARK 6:12-13 12 So they went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.

 

[EndTimes]

Using that logic @EndTimes, they couldn’t be “priests” either because after all, they were “Apostles”.

No. That’s an illogical non-sequitur …

They were Apostles because they were Apostles!

Anything else?

 

[Cathoholic]

No EndTimes.

I used the PRINCIPLES you employed to come to that wrong conclusion to rhetorically make a point.

Look. If you want to think otherwise, the posts are right up here recently.

You can think whatever you want. I am not your dictator. You can have your opinions. I’m good with that.

But you’ve never addressed any of the points I made. At least logically.

People can draw their own conclusions.

To the readers:

Read back three ornfour posts and see for yourself.
Come to your own conclusions.

 

[EndTimes]

Judas I was an Apostle.

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . .

Judas I (sic) was an Apostle.

Cathoholic. . . .

Judas was an Apostle. But Judas was not MERELY an Apostle.

 

[poche]

Matthias was consecrated a bishop before Pentacost.

 

[tafan2]

How do you reconcile this with your assumption ("I had always assumed . . . ") of conferring the office of bishop to the Apostles in the upper Room AFTER the Resurrection with Judas absent?

I am.more than happy with @EndTimes explanation in post 60 and 62 to explain the use of the word.

It just does not make sense to.me, in the least, that the apostles were bishops during Jesus’s ministry. You hang too much weight on one word.

BTW, you don’t have to cut and oast the entire context of a conversation every post. We can keep up without such rudimentary assistance.

 

[redal]

Because Judas also received the Eucharist and then he berayed Christ.

I’m not sure this is a litmus test for righteousness. The Eucharist is an act of forgiveness offered to us by God, not an act of piousness by us.

Have we all, not betrayed Christ in one way or another through sinfulness, after receiving the Eucharist?

There might be a little bit of Judas in each of us.

 

[adf417]

There have been good arguments on both sides in this thread thus far and forgive me for not fully reading through the complete thread. Assuming no one has discussed this point i would like to introduce the idea of “bishop by desire”.

Basing this idea from our Catholic belief of “baptism by desire” concept, and surly it was Jesus’ desire to have Judas become bishop along with the other apostles at pentecost, wouldn’t it be appropriate to say Judas was a bishop by desire? I realize the “desire” is not Jesus’ desire but that this concept would be based on (as in the concept of baptism) Judas’s desire.

Thoughts?

Peace!!!

 

[EndTimes]

Basing this idea from our Catholic belief of “baptism by desire” concept, and surly it was Jesus’ desire to have Judas become bishop along with the other apostles at pentecost, wouldn’t it be appropriate to say Judas was a bishop by desire? I realize the “desire” is not Jesus’ desire but that this concept would be based on (as in the concept of baptism) Judas’s desire.

That’s a series of highly speculative and problematic notions…

The Apostles at that time of Last Supper -
were all still very ignorant of what was to follow…

And Judas was dead even before our Lord was Crucified…

And the remaining Apostles
Voted for an Apostle to replace the vacancy left by Judas - after Pentecost…

For what meaningful purpose does this thread - Was Judas a Bishop - actually Serve?

_

 

[kainosktisis]

They forgave St. Peter, & he’d denied Him 3x publicly.

 

[kainosktisis]

For what meaningful purpose does this thread - Was Judas a Bishop - actually Serve?

Perhaps to see how see how forgiveness & Apostleship works?

It’s an interesting view…

 

[EndTimes]

Perhaps to see how see how forgiveness & Apostleship works?

Do you not know by now how e.g., Forgiveness “works”?

Apostleship? The APOSTLES CREED is a perfect start.

As is Jesus’ Apostolic Commission - To Preach the GOSPEL!

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[kainosktisis]

I meant as applied in the hypothetical. No need to get upset about it.

Acts 1:12-26 (BibleGateway):

Acts 1:12-26 NIV - - Bible Gateway

15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)

16 and said, “Brothers and sisters,[b] the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus.

17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”

20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: “‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’[c] and, “‘May another take his place of leadership.’[d]

21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us,

22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.

24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen

25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.”

26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

See also 1 Timothy 1:6 and 4:14.

 

[adf417]

That’s a series of highly speculative and problematic notions…

Possibly, possibly not.

The Apostles at that time of Last Supper -
were all still very ignorant of what was to follow…

And Judas was dead even before our Lord was Crucified…

Agreed and still are today to some degree. :man_shrugging:t3:

And Judas was dead even before our Lord was Crucified…

And the remaining Apostles
Voted for an Apostle to replace the vacancy left by Judas - after Pentecost…

Ok

For what meaningful purpose does this thread - Was Judas a Bishop - actually Serve?

Possibly nothing, not unlike most threads here on CAF. But i dont see anything wrong with it, do you?

Peace!!!

 

[Cathoholic]

tafan2 . . .

BTW, you don’t have to cut and oast the entire context of a conversation every post. We can keep up without such rudimentary assistance.

I don’t do that typically with “every post”.

I try to do it whenever I think it is time to easily bring readers and lurkers (who may only read portions of a thread) up to date with a reasonable re-capitulation.

I will contine writing that way.

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Regarding my use of the Bible EXPLICITLY mentioning Judas’ Bishop’s office that he held you said . . . . .

tfan2 . . .

It just does not make sense to.me, in the least, that the apostles were bishops during Jesus’s ministry. You hang too much weight on one word.

That’s your call tafan2.

It just does make sense to me, that the apostles were NOT bishops during Jesus’s ministry when it is explicitly stated as such at least by the time they are in the Upper Room waiting for Pentecost. You hang too much weight on no words.

1/2 . . .

Edited.