Was Judas Iscariot a Bishop?

[Cathoholic]

2/2 . . .

Remember this ORDAINING occurred BEFORE Pentecost.

And they are readying to be ORDAINING a fellow-bishop. Matthias.

And Judas had a “share” in “this ministry” that the Apostles were about to exercise in replacing a fellow-bishop.

ACTS 1:16-26 16 Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry. 18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akel′dama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms,

‘Let his habitation become desolate,
and let there be no one to live in it’;

and

‘His (Judas’) office (Greek = Judas’ Bishoprick or “bishop’s office”) let another take.’

21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab′bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi′as. 24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi′as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

Bold and parenthetical mine.

Non-bishops cannot ORDAIN.
Mere ministerial Priests cannot ordain.
Laity cannot ordain.

You might say, “Well it’s evident Apostles” CAN ordain Bishops.

In which case I would say fine. The Apostles are functioning as Bishops then because you NEED to be united to that dimension (of bishop) of Christ’s one priesthood in order to ordain anybody.

They are in the upper room carring out THE Prayers and the breaking of the Bread (they are saying Mass). They are acting in their Priestly ministry.

As I said before, in Mark’s Gospel they were at least apparently anointing the sick.

These are ministerial priestly functions. The Apostles or “ones who are sent” are doing so carrying out these ministerial functions with a SHARE in Christ’s one, once for all Priesthood.

So they were at least Priests and perhaps Bishops even by then even in the Gospels.

But if you want to think they were not, that’s fine with me.

Or if you want to think of an Apostle as being a super-priest or Bishop or whatever that’s your perogative too.

 

[tafan2]

It just does make sense to me, that the apostles were NOT bishops during Jesus’s ministry when it is explicitly stated as such at least by the time they are in the Upper Room waiting for Pentecost. Y

I certainly believe they were before Pentecost, I made that clear. That would have been after Jesus’s ministry. But that phrase was admittedly not clear, as it I should have said before the Paschal Mystery.

You hang too much weight on one word.

Really, I have provide that seems clear that they were made Bishops at that point. I will point out that Jesus told Peter “You are the rock upon I will build my Church” (ie future tense).

 

[tafan2]

I don’t do that typically with “every post”.

I try to do it whenever I think it is time to easily bring readers and lurkers (who may only read portions of a thread) up to date with a reasonable re-capitulation.

I will contine writing that way.

Just so you know, it is rather annoying to others but it is of course you call.

 

[EndTimes]

I meant as applied in the hypothetical. No need to get upset about it.

Not upset…

Potentially Endless disagreeable discussions re: Judas: Bishop? Yes? No?

Seems near to 100% useless re: Learning to Know what Forgiveness is all about.

Father Forgive Me - AS I Forgive others.
For, Our Forgiveness is a necessary pre-requisite for inheriting eternal Life.

See? It’s that’s simple - That’s my point.

 

[EndTimes]

For what meaningful purpose does this thread - Was Judas a Bishop - actually Serve?

With some, I do…

Virtually endless examples of disagreeableness while engaged in talking the talk… .period.

_

 

[Cathoholic]

tafan2 . . .

I certainly believe they (the Apostles) were (made Bishops) before Pentecost, I made that clear.

Parenthtical mine for context.

But even if you affirm they were Bishops BEFORE Pentecost, it is irrelevant because Judas had such an office.

Your conclusion excluded Judas from “among us”.

Yet the Bible dies NOT exclude Judas (“For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry.”).

“This ministry” they are in the process if exercizing is . . . . ordaining a new Bishop here.

The Bible says so explicitly.

So if Judas was “included among us” in the context of the ministry of ordaining Bishops, by definition, Judas would have had that charism. Which we know belongs to the bishoprick exclusively.

(Again. If somebody wants to say an “Apostle” INCLUDES the charisms of the office of the Bishop and then some, I’d be fine with that too. But so far nobody has attempted to make such a distinction.)

And I don’t think it was clear for me as it was for you because you (correctly) pointed out that the birthday of the Church is at Pentecost.

But (incorrectly) intimated that therefore, the ministries cannot commence before then (which is clearly wrong as they were preaching with authority, binding and loosing, baptizing, anointing the sick, and offering the Mass).

I agree, Peter gets the Keys sometime after Matthew 16.

But remember, the Apostles had the power to bind and loose in the present tense in Matthew 18:18.

.

MATTHEW 18:18 18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

NOT MATTHEW 18:18 18Truly, I say to you, whatever some day in the future, you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven . . .

.

.

And even the Seventy (the proto-priesthood if not the full priesthood) were exercising their ministires.

Judas CERTAINLY would have been included here. Or at least their is no reason Scripturally, to EXCLUDE him here.

LUKE 10:8-12, 16 8 Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; 9 heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town. . . . 16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

 

[EndTimes]

Just so you know, it is rather annoying to others but it is of course you call.

To prove what is impossible to…

 

[adf417]

adf417:

For what meaningful purpose does this thread - Was Judas a Bishop - actually Serve?

With some, I do…

Virtually endless examples of disagreeableness while engaged in talking the talk… .period.

_

I understand, which is why i don’t engage in those threads.

Peace!!!

 

[EndTimes]

I understand, which is why i don’t engage in those threads.

I’ll soon follow your lead… I’m new to this Forum,
and as time goes by - I’m whittling the useless branches

 

[Cathoholic]

But I am not being a “useless branch” for you guys.

I am posting this information for others that come and read and that DO appreciate it.

And to save those others the work of having to look it all up, when I include the resources for them.

So in the future, they can come to the CAF website, do a search on “Cathoholic” and whatever subject (Ecclesial subject. I don’t get this specific with a lot of “news” threads because this is where my heart is. But on the news threads at least right now, I can obtain more people dialoguing. And that is fun too.), and have the resources at hand quickly for themselves.

 

[Zaccheus]

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

This happened when Christ appeared to the Apostles, after the Resurrection. Judas was not present.

 

[Cathoholic]

Zaccheus . . .

This happened when Christ appeared to the Apostles, after the Resurrection. Judas was not present.

Nor was St. Thomas.

Yet Judas is still explicitly described as holding a “bishoprick” in Acts 1.

 

[Zaccheus]

Zaccheus . . .

This happened when Christ appeared to the Apostles, after the Resurrection. Judas was not present.

I just came from reading Acts 1. Jesus ascends to Heaven. The disciples return to Jerusalem and spend time in prayer. Peter speaks of the need to replace Judas the traitor, who is dead by that time. They choose Matthias.

That chapter contains a list of Apostles that includes a man named Judas son of James. But clearly this is not the same man as Judas Iscariot the traitor. The traitor is already dead.

Also Peter speaks of Judas as having shared in the ministry of the Apostles. That doesn’t mean he was made a bishop. It means that until his act of betrayal he was one of the Twelve.

 

[vz71]

Also Peter speaks of Judas as having shared in the ministry of the Apostles. That doesn’t mean he was made a bishop. It means that until his act of betrayal he was one of the Twelve.

Here is the passage from the DRV.
15 In those days Peter rising up in the midst of the brethren, said: (now the number of persons together was about an hundred and twenty

16 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus:

17 Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

18 And he indeed hath possessed a field of the reward of iniquity, and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out.

19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem: so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

 

[Zaccheus]

0 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

Peter quoted Psalms regarding the fate that befall Judas.

Did Judas possess a ‘habitation’ in which others could have dwelt, except that it came to ruin because of his sin?

Peter was not saying Judas possessed a bishop’s office. He was saying Judas came to ruin and desolation.

 

[EndTimes]

I guess this is one of those alternate history questions.

Let’s assume everything up to the crucifixion takes place as it does in real life. However, instead of hanging himself, Judas simply runs away. Since he is technically an apostle, would he be a valid Bishop and would bishops created by him be valid?

That’s a mighty What If? Speculation…

 

[vz71]

Peter was not saying Judas possessed a bishop’s office. He was saying Judas came to ruin and desolation.

Then what exactly is this?
And his bishopric let another take.

 

[EndTimes]

Let’s assume everything up to the crucifixion takes place as it does in real life. However, instead of hanging himself, Judas simply runs away. Since he is technically an apostle, would he be a valid Bishop and would bishops created by him be valid?

That did not occur…

T’is Better to apply that pure Speculative What If? question to Real World

Has/Have any E.G. Schismatic Bishop(s) ordained more Bishops?

Then What?

 

[Zaccheus]

Zaccheus:

Peter was not saying Judas possessed a bishop’s office. He was saying Judas came to ruin and desolation.

Then what exactly is this?
And his bishopric let another take.

That is a quote from the Psalms, noting the fate of someone who offended against God and lost his possession and his place. Peter was not saying Judas was a bishop. He was saying Judas was left desolate because of his sin.

 

[vz71]

Peter was not saying Judas was a bishop. He was saying Judas was left desolate because of his sin.

I disagree.
There is a very clear reference to an office.
Whether Judas ever took that office remains a question, but there very clearly is an office.