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We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
And who gave Jesus any authority ? What authority had the apostles ? (Answer to both questions: No-one.) Luther’s is no weaker than theirs.
Being crucified is a pretty abject form of failure - He couldn’t even count on the loyalty of all his disciples: one betrayed him, another denied him with curses (the one he had called “Satan”), & the rest took to their heels. That’s not failure ?
And Jesus divided the people - no asked him to. As for contradictory beliefs & sects, the Christians were spitting hate at one another in the NT books.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
That is the kind of arrogance & pride that can always been turned upside down. It was nothing once, & to nothing it can easily return. It’s been said, & very truly, that the Church is never more than one generation away from destruction
Some abuses for you by 1517:
- trafficking in relics
- trafficking in false relics
- clerical concubinage
- bastard offspring of these concubines (politely called “nephews”)
- holding of several benefices simultaneously, so as to gain their revenues
- trafficking in indulgences (which the Council of Trent explicitly admitted & deplored)
- the other face of pluralism - non-residence by bishops (one bishop entered his cathedral for the first time at his funeral)
- failure to provide bishops for vacant sees (a see in Iceland was vacant for 100 (one hundred) years)
- a swarming clerical proletariat of men with no education & no vocation (no seminaries existed yet)
- pervasive superstition & ignorance (St. Peter Canisius noticed this in Germany)
- and so it goes on…
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
give me a break…
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Why don’t you list what religion you are in your profile? Would it be anti-Catholic?
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Distracted, any non-Catholics here find you annoying because they can’t face the truth. And they think I am rude because of the same thing. So be it.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Why would you call me arrogant because I said the Catholic church has stood for 2,000 years?
Do you have an issue with this? You want the church to be destroyed as you say here in your post, but sorry to disappoint you, Jesus said it will never happen. Is he being arrogant too?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
For your reading pleasure:
TAN Books publishes the entire canons and decrees of Trent. Session 25 explicitly refers to abuses of indulgences, even while defending indulgences themselves. Anyone who tries to deny that there were real and scandalous abuses has the words of the Council to explain. The Fathers of Trent seemed to think there were serious abuses. Innocent VII (1389-1404) is suspected of having trafficked in indulgences as Pope. (I got that from a Catholic source - “The Popes”, by E. John (1964).The translation is that of H.J.Schroeder O.P, “The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent”, TAN Books 1978. It should not be confused with the translation by Canon Waterworth, also republished by TAN, which is to be found in the TAN book “Dogmatic Canons and Decrees”. This is a collection of the doctrinal and dogmatic parts of Trent - it does not, unlike Schroeder’s book, include the decrees for the reform of the Church which are included in the sessions of the Council. “Dogmatic Canons and Decrees” also includes the 1864 Syllabus of Errors and the definitions of Vatican I.
Session 21 chapter 9:
“Since many remedies heretofore applied by different councils, those of the Lateran [Lateran V (1512-17) ? ] and Lyons [it is not clear which one] as well as that of Vienne [in 1312], against the pernicious abuses of quaestors of alms, have in later times become useless, and since their depravity is, to the great scandal and complaint of the faithful, found to be daily so much on the increase that there seems no longer to be any hope of their amendment left, it is decreed that in all parts of Christendom their name and service be henceforth absolutely abolished and in no wise shall they be permitted to exercise such an office; any privileges granted to churches, monasteries, hospitals, pious places, and to any persons of whatever rank, state, or dignity, or any customs, even though immemorial, notwithstanding. With regard to indulgences or other spiritual graces of which the Christian faithful ought not on this account to be deprived, it is decreed that they are in the future to be announced to the people at suitable times by the local ordinaries aided by two members of the chapter. To these also the authority is given to collect faithfully and without fee the alms and chritable contributions offered them so that all may understand that these heavenly treasures of the Church are administered not for gain but for piety.”
(Schroeder p.142)
Session 5 Chapter 2 in June 1546 had restrained quaestors (Schroeder p. 28) - now, 16 years and a month later, the Fathers of the Council are making a clean sweep.
Session 25 chapter 21
Session 25 in December 1563 says:
“…But desiring that the abuses which have become connected with them, [indulgences, which are being regulated by the decree here quoted] and by reason of which this excellent name of indulgences is blasphemed by the heretics, be amended and corrected,** it**[the council] ordains in a general way by the present decree that all evil traffic in them, which has been a most prolific source of abuses among the christian people, be absolutely abolished…”
(Schroeder p.253, 254.)
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I’m sorry you can’t face facts
I sympathise - they are not pleasant, but here in the UK we don’t have the luxury of fictionalised history that US Catholics seem to have - the facts are too well known, we have a much longer history than the US has, & any attempt to deny notorious scandals would be recognised very quickly, because our scandals and the Reformation are often closely related. We do not have the luxury of lying, & a good thing too.My religion ? RC - for now. Not that my details matter - they are irrelevant to the facts about the abuses & corruptions in the Church at the time of the Reformation. The worldliness of the Papacy & its unseemly absorption in power-politics did more than any Protestant could have done to bring it into discredit. I forget to mention that
- one of the evils in the Church’s life was nepotism
- another was the making of adolescent princelings into cardinals (Leo X’s cardinalate was conferred when he was 14, not because his family, the Medici, were renowned for their piety (the reverse is the case), but because they were wealthy & powerful)
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Any church with men and women in it will have abuses. That’s not anti-Catholic or anti- anything else. But that is what the Reformation was about. It is very sad that it happened, and I wish it hadn’t. But to say that the abuses were not there is simply not honest, OTCA. That’s the point you don’t want to see or admit. My own Methodist communion split over the issue of slavery during the Civil War. Someone saying that isn’t anti-Methodist - just stating history.
I have great respect for Catholicism. But any church was always be diligent against abuse and apostacy. No one is immune.
O+
I have great respect for Catholicism. But any church was always be diligent against abuse and apostacy. No one is immune.
O+
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Why would you call me arrogant because I said the Catholic church has stood for 2,000 years?
Here’s what was said:
OTCA to the OP:- Where do you see shouting? Just like your church interpreted the Word of God the wrong way, you interpret my post the same way .
And he DID FAIL because the Catholic church STILL STANDS, being the largest leading religion in the world. Was then, is now.
That is the kind of arrogance & pride that can always been turned upside down. It was nothing once, & to nothing it can easily return. It’s been said, & very truly, that the Church is never more than one generation away from destruction.
Clearer ?
May I suggest that the abuses of the Church in the 16th century - whether you believe they existed or not - are as long ago as any mistakes Luther made. And therefore, they are worth reviewing for the sake of not repeating, then getting on with the task of finding some way to overcome our differences in the 21st century. IOW, neither the Catholic Church nor Catholics today, Pope, priest or laity, are responsible for mistakes or abuses, real or imagined, from 500 years ago. And I pray God’s blessings on her and Pope Benedict XVI.
Jon
Jon
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Hesychios
Guest
Nicely put!
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Hisalone
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Why do you not address any of these points and Ill add one. The selling of Church offices.
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gcnuss
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Well said, Jon. And I might add that this applies to all Christians – Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, etc. None of us in the 21st century is responsible for what our ancestors did or did not do. As you note, we should be able to use their experiences as learning tools in the hope that errors and abuses might not be repeated.
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Hisalone
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The Reformation is relevant today and the reason for it because of those that live in a false reality that all the fault rests on the reformers.
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motstraumen
Guest
For one thing Shouting in computer/internet forums are when you capitalize things. It is rude, and in most blogs and chat rooms you are banned for using this form, madam… There were abuses and the council of Trent points them out, and there are, if you may recall the recent episodes in Ireland. He did not want to be some sort of hero, he sought truth, was ready to die for the cause as did Jan Hus in Bohemia, and longed for unity in the church. It was the Wonderful of hierarchy of what is now your church that split the church and empire. Thank you to everyone on here who has been supportive in letting me know what caliber this “apologist”.
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motstraumen
Guest
Ahhhhhh? Truth hurts…I am quoting here. Apologist? Johan Eck would be ashamed.
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motstraumen
Guest
You are correct both of you, JonNC and gcnuss, although we are not responsible, we are responsible for how we look at history. The Luthean Church has come a long way from the days of my parents when all that Luther said was right on and what the Lutheran Church did was perfect, to today realizing that he made mistakes and that we didn’t always love our neighbor. We all know of Lutheans though who still stand on that principle and white wash everything he said or did, along with the consequent generations of Lutherans, ie Muhlenburg, Chemnitz, the Preus Brothers et al. Some on this forum remain in the mode that everything the Roman Church did and does is good, and there again, that is not looking at history objectively (and yes, I know that one cannot totally do that, because we as saint and sinner always tend to throw a bit of subjectivity in the mix). To white wash the acts of the Church during the age of the Reformation does no one any good, and therefore it is much easier in the long run for history to repeat itself. That goes for today when so called apologists blame victims of pastoral or priestly abuse or call it sensationalism etc, it is not healthy, and it turns its back on Christ’s peace, the peace that breaks down all walls that divide us, Ephesians 2 comes to mind. God Bless you all on this glorious Pentecost. Wear Red!
Thanks, Pastor.
I might add that we can become as responsible as our ancestors for their mistakes if we continue to repeat them.
Jon
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onenow1
Guest
Hi, All
Just afew things to chew on here .
Adam became the “Father of the Human Race” in Genesis 4:1-2,25.
GOD spoke directly to Adam in Genesis 2:16-17, and in many other verses.
Noah, the Father of three sons, Genesis 6:10, his wife and his sons wives, were all that was left of the human race after the great flood, Genesis 7:23.
GOD spoke directly to Noah in Genesis 6:13-14, and in many other verses.
Our Father Abraham: Luke 1:73,3:8, John 8:39,53, Acts 7:2, Romans 4:1,12, James 2:21. He became the “Father of a Multitude of Nations” in Genesis 17:5.
GOD spoke directly to Abraham in Genesis 17:1-22, and in many other verses.
Our Father Isaac…Romans 9:10
GOD spoke directly to Isaac in Genesis 26:2-5, and in many other verses.
Our Father Jacob…John 4:12. He became the “Father of Israel” in Genesis 32:29, and he had twelve sons who became the “Father Figures” of each of the twelve tribes of Israel, Exodus 29-49.
GOD spoke directly to Jacob in Genesis 35:1, and in many other verses.
Moses was the “Father Figure” for GOD’s chosen people, the one who would lead them out of the bondage of Egypt. Exodus 1 to Deut 34.
GOD Spoke directly to Moses from the Burning Bush in Exodus 3:4-10, and in many other verses.
Our Father David…Mark 11:10, who was both King, 2Sam 6:16, and Priest, 2Sam 6:18, foreshadowed Jesus Christ who is both King and High Priest in the New Testament.
GOD spoke directly to David in 2Samuel 2:1 and in many other verses.
“Thus said the Lord, the GOD of David thy Father…”, 2Kings 20:5
"He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.”
Matthew 16:15-17
In these verses it is shown that GOD had spoken through His “Father Figure”, Peter, and Peter only, revealing the truth to him. Why then do some say that GOD does not speak today through His “Father Figure” on earth, the successor to Simon Peter?
“Father figures”, are all throughout Holy Scripture.
You can readily see that GOD always provided a “Father Figure” on earth to shepherd His people.
GOD is the invisible head of His people, and His “Father Figure” is the visible head.
It is no different today.
GOD is the same yesterday, today and forever. The truth never changes. Since GOD is infinite truth, how then could He possibly change, since any change would then imply a defect in the truth?
Hope this helps the discussion on the topic at hand.
Peace, onenow1
Just afew things to chew on here .
Adam became the “Father of the Human Race” in Genesis 4:1-2,25.
GOD spoke directly to Adam in Genesis 2:16-17, and in many other verses.
Noah, the Father of three sons, Genesis 6:10, his wife and his sons wives, were all that was left of the human race after the great flood, Genesis 7:23.
GOD spoke directly to Noah in Genesis 6:13-14, and in many other verses.
Our Father Abraham: Luke 1:73,3:8, John 8:39,53, Acts 7:2, Romans 4:1,12, James 2:21. He became the “Father of a Multitude of Nations” in Genesis 17:5.
GOD spoke directly to Abraham in Genesis 17:1-22, and in many other verses.
Our Father Isaac…Romans 9:10
GOD spoke directly to Isaac in Genesis 26:2-5, and in many other verses.
Our Father Jacob…John 4:12. He became the “Father of Israel” in Genesis 32:29, and he had twelve sons who became the “Father Figures” of each of the twelve tribes of Israel, Exodus 29-49.
GOD spoke directly to Jacob in Genesis 35:1, and in many other verses.
Moses was the “Father Figure” for GOD’s chosen people, the one who would lead them out of the bondage of Egypt. Exodus 1 to Deut 34.
GOD Spoke directly to Moses from the Burning Bush in Exodus 3:4-10, and in many other verses.
Our Father David…Mark 11:10, who was both King, 2Sam 6:16, and Priest, 2Sam 6:18, foreshadowed Jesus Christ who is both King and High Priest in the New Testament.
GOD spoke directly to David in 2Samuel 2:1 and in many other verses.
“Thus said the Lord, the GOD of David thy Father…”, 2Kings 20:5
"He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.”
Matthew 16:15-17
In these verses it is shown that GOD had spoken through His “Father Figure”, Peter, and Peter only, revealing the truth to him. Why then do some say that GOD does not speak today through His “Father Figure” on earth, the successor to Simon Peter?
“Father figures”, are all throughout Holy Scripture.
You can readily see that GOD always provided a “Father Figure” on earth to shepherd His people.
GOD is the invisible head of His people, and His “Father Figure” is the visible head.
It is no different today.
GOD is the same yesterday, today and forever. The truth never changes. Since GOD is infinite truth, how then could He possibly change, since any change would then imply a defect in the truth?
Hope this helps the discussion on the topic at hand.
Peace, onenow1
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