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adamhovey1988
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My godmother is from Slovenia. She moved to Austria when she was eleven. The way she tells it, is liking going from slavery to freedom.
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Peeps
Guest
I think it would be useful to consider what it would be like to be part of “communal living.”
It’s been tried all over the U.S., and in some situations, it works pretty well; e.g., the Amish.
But think about what it would be like to actually live in that community–to not have control of much of your wage in whatever job you do, and to have the obligation (not the choice) to help with all the manual labor in the community, and to have your children attend the community school no matter what it’s like…
…I know it sounds pleasant to some of you, but think about the fact that you have no CHOICE–you have to do what the community expects and you can’t leave, ever, or do anything different, ever.
No, I think most Americans really feel strongly–“Live free or die.”
One of the greatest pleasures of freedom is making choices and seeing those choices bear fruit. E.g., switching college majors from music to lab science gave me a well-paying job that I can find in almost any city in the country. Choosing to live fairly simply (buying a cheap house instead of a huge “family home”) has made it possible for me and my husband to be able to have our girls involved with the very expensive sport of figure skating, which has paid off with jobs and a rich social life and rewarding physical activity for both of them. I could give more examples, but…the point is, I had the freedom to make choices, and although I did make some stupid choices that did not help out my wallet or my ego, I made a lot good choices. I was free to do so.
I really wish that U.S. schools could get into this method of education–from the very beginning, teaching kids about making wise choices, not only in arithmetic or P.E., but in life.
With communism you choose what the State tells you to choose.
It’s been tried all over the U.S., and in some situations, it works pretty well; e.g., the Amish.
But think about what it would be like to actually live in that community–to not have control of much of your wage in whatever job you do, and to have the obligation (not the choice) to help with all the manual labor in the community, and to have your children attend the community school no matter what it’s like…
…I know it sounds pleasant to some of you, but think about the fact that you have no CHOICE–you have to do what the community expects and you can’t leave, ever, or do anything different, ever.
No, I think most Americans really feel strongly–“Live free or die.”
One of the greatest pleasures of freedom is making choices and seeing those choices bear fruit. E.g., switching college majors from music to lab science gave me a well-paying job that I can find in almost any city in the country. Choosing to live fairly simply (buying a cheap house instead of a huge “family home”) has made it possible for me and my husband to be able to have our girls involved with the very expensive sport of figure skating, which has paid off with jobs and a rich social life and rewarding physical activity for both of them. I could give more examples, but…the point is, I had the freedom to make choices, and although I did make some stupid choices that did not help out my wallet or my ego, I made a lot good choices. I was free to do so.
I really wish that U.S. schools could get into this method of education–from the very beginning, teaching kids about making wise choices, not only in arithmetic or P.E., but in life.
With communism you choose what the State tells you to choose.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
They’re treated as 2nd class citizens by the government. Some are denied further education and jobs because their son or daughter became American.
I worked and trained engineers from China. Most hated their government. One liked them and the difference was obvious,
I asked if Chinese people are allowed to leave ? I asked because the former Soviet Union would not allow their people to leave, until Gorbachev. The Chinese engineer told me of course they let people leave, they have too many people already and the less is better in the government’s eyes. Hence their one child policy which turned into a disaster as the ratio of male to female became unbalanced according to nature.
Also, you have to take a look at how the Chinese government treats others like the people of Tibet. When the government began shooting Buddhist protesters in the street there, one pro-government Chinese engineer pointed out how the protesters where throwing rocks at the police there. The problem is that the Chinese government had workers bring barrels of rocks in before the protest and then planted agents who began throwing rocks at the cops in order to justify the shooting of protesters. Those agents were filmed secretly before the protest even began, observing the citizens in the streets and later planting themselves in with the protesters to begin the violence.
And of course religious freedom and human rights. Some say the West should put pressure on the Chinese government to end this. However, just as we saw what’s taking place in the world with the pandemic from China, which I believe was China’s response to the Trade War started by Trump, the Chinese Communist Government isn’t going to listen to anyone.
I worked and trained engineers from China. Most hated their government. One liked them and the difference was obvious,
I asked if Chinese people are allowed to leave ? I asked because the former Soviet Union would not allow their people to leave, until Gorbachev. The Chinese engineer told me of course they let people leave, they have too many people already and the less is better in the government’s eyes. Hence their one child policy which turned into a disaster as the ratio of male to female became unbalanced according to nature.
Also, you have to take a look at how the Chinese government treats others like the people of Tibet. When the government began shooting Buddhist protesters in the street there, one pro-government Chinese engineer pointed out how the protesters where throwing rocks at the police there. The problem is that the Chinese government had workers bring barrels of rocks in before the protest and then planted agents who began throwing rocks at the cops in order to justify the shooting of protesters. Those agents were filmed secretly before the protest even began, observing the citizens in the streets and later planting themselves in with the protesters to begin the violence.
And of course religious freedom and human rights. Some say the West should put pressure on the Chinese government to end this. However, just as we saw what’s taking place in the world with the pandemic from China, which I believe was China’s response to the Trade War started by Trump, the Chinese Communist Government isn’t going to listen to anyone.
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JimR-OCDS
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In free societies, the farmer owns his farm and the what he produces on it.
This is not the same in Communist nations who own the farm, the land the production and the farmer himself.
I worked with an engineer who grew up on a farm in China. He told me of the struggle to move to Beijing in order to get an education.
One day on our walk at lunch time, he said how he enjoyed hearing the birds. I asked, “don’t they have birds in China ?” He said no, the people eat them because they don’t have enough food to eat. “Even on the farms ?” He said the government takes all of the crops and the farmer has to go to the village to purchase crops from government run markets. That’s if he can afford to. So, they eat song birds and other animals they can get in order to feed themselves.
This is not the same in Communist nations who own the farm, the land the production and the farmer himself.
I worked with an engineer who grew up on a farm in China. He told me of the struggle to move to Beijing in order to get an education.
One day on our walk at lunch time, he said how he enjoyed hearing the birds. I asked, “don’t they have birds in China ?” He said no, the people eat them because they don’t have enough food to eat. “Even on the farms ?” He said the government takes all of the crops and the farmer has to go to the village to purchase crops from government run markets. That’s if he can afford to. So, they eat song birds and other animals they can get in order to feed themselves.
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Rozellelily
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You believe the Covid pandemic was created intentionally?
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sealabeag
Guest
Pure evil does not exist in this world, it is always a mixture of good and evil, truth and lies, or a good thing used in such a way as to distort and corrupt it. Communism and Socialism are evils, but evils that contain some elements of truth or good, however they are by and large evil, and as such must be rejected. Communism has been condemned outright by the Catholic Church - Capitalism has been condemned only in its extreme forms. Some people, for some reason, want to be both Communist or Socialist and Catholic at the same time. You can’t be, and the Church has affirmed that.
Some also think that being socialist means you care about the poor and being capitalist means you don’t. This is a nonsense perspective.
Some also think that being socialist means you care about the poor and being capitalist means you don’t. This is a nonsense perspective.
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MNathaniel
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Fallacy of False Equivalence.
Communism and non-communism are apples and oranges.
I’m honestly trying to keep out of this thread, but it’s like listening to someone try to ask for the “positives” about Hitler or the Nazis. Someone could ask the same question when defending Nazi Germany: “Is any government’s hands truly clean?”
No, obviously not. But there’s a difference between different kinds and amounts of dirt on the hands.
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JimR-OCDS
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I suspect that it was created intentionally.
Not saying it’s fact, just my gut feel about it.
I just pray that something worse doesn’t follow
Not saying it’s fact, just my gut feel about it.
I just pray that something worse doesn’t follow
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joyalton
Guest
I can only imagine greater opportunities to live as a Christian under Communism because you may not only be required to pick up your cross but you may be required to lay down your life for your faith. Something your people and the early Christians endured. This is something we Americans have not been required to do…yet. Maybe in that respect, Communism can be a blessing. I also know that your Eastern Churches share Apostolic Traditions with us in the West and they have much to teach us. God Bless
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MNathaniel
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I’m trying to figure out whether your comment is meant to be read in an ironic tone?
If not, I’m reminded of Jesus’ words in Matthew 26:24, Matthew 18:7 and Luke 17:1.
Though martyrdom for Christ is good, we should surely not be wishing for persecutions and temptations to apostasy (which surely are faced in the course of martyrdom). We should surely not be wishing to be betrayed by our neighbours. Even if primarily for the sake of the persecutors, we should not wish for persecution. Because woe to the persecutors. Yes, we’d be fine, because we’d just be dead (but alive in Christ). But those who put us to death won’t be fine, and we’re supposed to be concerned about them (and try to help them not choose that path).
If that path comes, sure, we might ultimately receive greater glory for it and God will work blessings for us through it. But I still think it’s mistaken to look fondly upon that possibility: because of the greater risks to souls that it implies for those who would be committing the persecutions.
It seems to me that we have a moral obligation to try to work for a world in which persecutions are minimized, stumbling blocks are minimized. Otherwise we risk becoming, ourselves, that man (or woman) by whom, at least in part, the temptation comes. E.g. the temptation to apostasy.
It’s only if our best efforts fail, and God allows the persecutors to gain temporal power to effect their persecutions, that we should accept the reality that others have chosen to condemn themselves, and look for the silver lining of blessings in the persecutions to come. I don’t think we’re quite there yet (though I do feel we’re rolling down the hill), so personally I don’t consider myself yet excused from trying to help the would-be persecutors choose not to persecute.
Just my $0.02.
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Inbonum
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Exactly.
It’s not normal to ever claim that “Nazis did good things too”. But communism? Oh yeah it’s great, it’s like first Christians. I mean, what??? There was (and there still is) so many suffering because of communism, I wrote just one of million examples in my previous post.
It’s not the first time I see simmilar comments on CAF.
I am wondering is it because we don’t share same definition of communism?
Is it because you were part of system so you are blinded and have some agenda? (I have met that too, unfortunately)
Or members of your family had great benefits from it and were part of system?
I don’t see any benefit of this thread since OP keeps going with wrong arguments again and again.
Communism is like any other totalitarian regime - THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT IT.
@rozellelily Church condemned communism, you can read about it here:
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joyalton
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Forgive me if my words were offensive. I did not mean them to be. I do not wish for others to be unduly persecuted , mistreated or killed. My previous comment stems from my reading of the persecution of the early Christians at a time when they were expecting Jesus to return at any moment and there was a great following of Jesus in martyrdom which that early church believed, I think rightfully, sent them straight to heaven. Many of them even sort opportunities to face martyrdom following the example of Christ. There was also a story in later centuries about a Catholic priest who was being severely persecuted in one location so he moved to another place where he was not persecuted. He then chose to return to the first place telling everyone that ‘it was easier being a Christian under persecution’. I think the easy Christian life caused him to take his eyes off Jesus. So, this is where I was coming from but, like you, I do not wish any persecution on any of our fellow humans. Thanks and God bless.
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Pattylt
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I have a question. When talking about Tito’s Yugoslavia and the various ethnic/religious groups getting along better, did they really get along better or were they just forced to behave? Another important question is, did they live amongst each other or live in separate neighborhoods? It seems that if they had truly become tolerant of each other, the strife wouldn’t have broken out as soon as communism left.
In Lebanon where four majority religions and several other smaller ones tried to pretend that they all got along…and, to some extent did. But, they still maintained separate neighborhoods and set up a political system that was based on religion. Eventually, this couldn’t be maintained as one group will always feel left out and unrepresented…or not represented enough. They were a parliamentary system but high positions are each required to be a specific religion. They also have a constitution with individual rights…and lately, it’s all going to heck in a hand basket. It’s in no way communist but whenever you claim that the various faiths all get along but segregation and mandatory religions for certain positions still keep the system unequal by force.
So, I’m curious as to the statement that communism kept the peace between these various groups if it was a forced cooperation and didn’t develop organically. I’d be interested in the thoughts from those that lived under these regimes.
I can say one nice thing about Hitler, by the way. He loved dogs and promoted anti cruelty policies towards animals. Too bad he didn’t think as highly of humans! So, he wasn’t 100% evil…just 99.99% !
In Lebanon where four majority religions and several other smaller ones tried to pretend that they all got along…and, to some extent did. But, they still maintained separate neighborhoods and set up a political system that was based on religion. Eventually, this couldn’t be maintained as one group will always feel left out and unrepresented…or not represented enough. They were a parliamentary system but high positions are each required to be a specific religion. They also have a constitution with individual rights…and lately, it’s all going to heck in a hand basket. It’s in no way communist but whenever you claim that the various faiths all get along but segregation and mandatory religions for certain positions still keep the system unequal by force.
So, I’m curious as to the statement that communism kept the peace between these various groups if it was a forced cooperation and didn’t develop organically. I’d be interested in the thoughts from those that lived under these regimes.
I can say one nice thing about Hitler, by the way. He loved dogs and promoted anti cruelty policies towards animals. Too bad he didn’t think as highly of humans! So, he wasn’t 100% evil…just 99.99% !
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kainosktisis
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And I get that - but it seems totally opposed to socialism & communism in any form.
And having served in the military over in Germany when the Walk fell & having heard of Christian persecution in the East & people like Brother Andrew who’d smuggle Bibles into the East in support of fellow Christians, I had & maintain a very negative view of socialism & communism. I honestly do not recall any news stories at the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall of people making mad dashes to the East because socialism & communism were so good. Quite the opposite. They fled by the thousands. There is a reason why people braved the machine gun towers of the Wall, the minefields that stood between free Germany & East Germany, & devised all sorts of ways to escape the East - at great cost to them - & many paid with their lives in the attempt.
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DaveBj
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I have not read all the posts, but I’m going to chime in with my experience.
The Air Force made me a Russian linguist, and I parlayed that into a BA in the language, and eventually an MA in Soviet and East European studies, the latter a few years before the Soviet Union broke up. All of my language instructors, and several of the professors in the MA program, were expats, either from Russia, or, in the latter case, from the post-WWII Soviet satellites. Uniformly they hated communism, and some of that rubbed off on my, so I do have a bit of a bias when it comes to this subject.
I saw it claimed that the early Church was communist. Having studied both communism and the writings of the Fathers, I must say that those who make that claim understand neither communism nor early Christianity. The big difference is that communism is imposed on a population from above, while the redistribution of wealth in the early church was voluntary (see the 5th chapter of Acts).
With regard to religion, communism as we know it comes from the writings of Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, and Vladimir Il’ich Lenin, all of whom were totally hostile to all religion.
Communism itself in its barest definition involves the government ownership of all means of production and the complete government control of the economy. This system failed in the USSR, because the Soviet nachal’stvo (leadership) consistently proved that they couldn’t plan a picnic, let alone a national economy. The reason for that is because people got into the nachal’stvo not because of their expertise or training, but because of their political connections. Cronyism is not just a capitalist phenomenon.
I’ll go thru the posts tomorrow morning, and I may have more to say.
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The Air Force made me a Russian linguist, and I parlayed that into a BA in the language, and eventually an MA in Soviet and East European studies, the latter a few years before the Soviet Union broke up. All of my language instructors, and several of the professors in the MA program, were expats, either from Russia, or, in the latter case, from the post-WWII Soviet satellites. Uniformly they hated communism, and some of that rubbed off on my, so I do have a bit of a bias when it comes to this subject.
I saw it claimed that the early Church was communist. Having studied both communism and the writings of the Fathers, I must say that those who make that claim understand neither communism nor early Christianity. The big difference is that communism is imposed on a population from above, while the redistribution of wealth in the early church was voluntary (see the 5th chapter of Acts).
With regard to religion, communism as we know it comes from the writings of Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, and Vladimir Il’ich Lenin, all of whom were totally hostile to all religion.
Communism itself in its barest definition involves the government ownership of all means of production and the complete government control of the economy. This system failed in the USSR, because the Soviet nachal’stvo (leadership) consistently proved that they couldn’t plan a picnic, let alone a national economy. The reason for that is because people got into the nachal’stvo not because of their expertise or training, but because of their political connections. Cronyism is not just a capitalist phenomenon.
I’ll go thru the posts tomorrow morning, and I may have more to say.
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Nicene
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You seriously need to read the New Testament more, or at least more closely. . . . Ananias and Sapphira . . . had property for example and what did St. Peter say to them? What did they do wrong? “Was not your property yours to do with as you wish?" . . . (see Acts 5:1-11).
To whom did St. Paul go to to collect donations for the poor in the church? Communism forces you to give ones resources.
Where did people gather? In each other’s private homes.
There were no corporations. People ran their own businesses and had apprentices. Vineyards hired workers in due season.
They weren’t even remotely communist in reality nor nature, that’s a modernist projection onto scripture to promote a false agenda. Now THATs communist, using propaganda to promote a false narrative (I. E control of the press narrative)
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StudentMI
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Guess I’m a modernist and a communist in your eyes.
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Nicene
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Of course he wouldn’t be an atheist socialist would he, promoting his secular view of how to control society? Same with Noam Chomsky?
The answer to both is yes. I’m guessing your not old enough to remember our favorite communists, pol pot and the lamer rouge, Stalin, Lenin, Che, Fidel, Kim Jong Il and his son, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Kruschev, among many others. Whom do do you admire the most?
The 100 million is a gross underestimation. In my lifetime they have straight out executed ( not including famine economics etc) 75 million. Estimates range from conservative 148 million to to a more realistic 245 million.
Capitalists don’t tend to execute their opponents, nor jail and execute dissenters. We have free speech.
My opinion is that your generation needs to wake up from its delusion
The answer to both is yes. I’m guessing your not old enough to remember our favorite communists, pol pot and the lamer rouge, Stalin, Lenin, Che, Fidel, Kim Jong Il and his son, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Kruschev, among many others. Whom do do you admire the most?
The 100 million is a gross underestimation. In my lifetime they have straight out executed ( not including famine economics etc) 75 million. Estimates range from conservative 148 million to to a more realistic 245 million.
Capitalists don’t tend to execute their opponents, nor jail and execute dissenters. We have free speech.
My opinion is that your generation needs to wake up from its delusion
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Nicene
Guest
Your the one defending communism, if it walks like a duck
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