What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[IgnatianPhilo]

daler,

i am serious when i ask, what does a human being need beyond faith in the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the divine grace that originates from that sacrifice?

Their answer seems to be “the social teachings of Baha’u’llah by which we can create utopia.”

 

[SteveVH]

daler,

i am serious when i ask, what does a human being need beyond faith in the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the divine grace that originates from that sacrifice?

And this is the very question that has never been answered by a Baha’i poster. I don’t believe they have any idea that they need to be saved or from what they need to be saved. Therefore salvation becomes an ideal life on earth rather than eternal life in the presence of God. Maybe the best we can hope for is “invincible ignorance” on the part of the Baha’i.

 

[PJM]

=Lochias;11412230]Loving a person does not mean condoning the lifestyle that they’ve chosen. We can love someone despite the bad choices they make, but that doesn’t mean we gloss over or encourage an objectively bad or harmful choice on their part.

I hesitate to enter this GREAT discussion, however it seems prudent to point out this fact.

TRUTH is as it MUST BE; a singular thing. It can be denined, ignored, and misunderstood; but in its essence it cannot be changed. What is “truth” is THEE Truth:thumbsup:

God Bless you both,
patrick

 

[PJM]

=Servant19;11412862]Hi Patrick, I am a great admirer of your email study program of the Catholic Faith. You are a wonderful servant of God.

I must admit, I got steered off track from your post and forgot to ask the questions I intended to ask. I will revisit your post today and address some areas that we may discuss together

I look forward to hearning from you my friend!

Patrick:thumbsup:

 

[PJM]

=MartinJordan;11413354]The thing is Abraham saw Jesus’ day and he was looking forward to it. So Abraham had to wait for Jesus to take him out of hell (and it’s not Hell that you think it is and this thread isn’t the place to explain it). But those who adhere to the Faith of Jesus and reach Holiness can go straight to Heaven. Catholics are called to Holiness in this way so we CAN make it to Heaven.

In no way does it reduce Father Abraham’s Faith and his Holiness. But he did need the Saviour of the World to let him attain Heaven.

Jesus is the Way The Truth and the Life.

MJ

SLOW DOWN THERE friends; a partial truth is NOT THEE truth. kindly take the time to share ALL of it; or none of it.

Abraham was NEVER in “hell” he was in the “limbo of the fathers”

Fr/ Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary:http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11413354
LIMBO. The abode of souls excluded from the full blessedness of the beatific vision, but not suffering any other punishment. They enjoy the happiness that would have been human destiny if humans had not been elevated to the supernatural order.

Catholic theology distinguishes two kinds of limbo. The limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum) was the place where the saints of the Old Testament remained until Christ’s coming and redemption of the world. The limbo of infants (limbus infantium) is the permanent state of those who die in original sin but are innocent of any personal guilt."

This site gives even more information if your interested.

God Bless you!
Patrick

 

[Lochias]

Ok then, where do you see logic in the Trinity?

The logic follows that since the Trinity makes sense in a historical, reasonable and theological context, it must logically be true.

Easy-peasy.

 

[SteveVH]

Catholic theology distinguishes two kinds of limbo. The limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum) was the place where the saints of the Old Testament remained until Christ’s coming and redemption of the world. The limbo of infants (limbus infantium) is the permanent state of those who die in original sin but are innocent of any personal guilt."

Correct. It must also be pointed out that “Limbo of Infants” is a theological theory and not a dogma or doctrine of the Church.

 

[MartinJordan]

SLOW DOWN THERE friends; a partial truth is NOT THEE truth. kindly take the time to share ALL of it; or none of it.

Abraham was NEVER in “hell” he was in the “limbo of the fathers”

Fr/ Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary:http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11413354
LIMBO. The abode of souls excluded from the full blessedness of the beatific vision, but not suffering any other punishment. They enjoy the happiness that would have been human destiny if humans had not been elevated to the supernatural order.

Catholic theology distinguishes two kinds of limbo. The limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum) was the place where the saints of the Old Testament remained until Christ’s coming and redemption of the world. The limbo of infants (limbus infantium) is the permanent state of those who die in original sin but are innocent of any personal guilt."

This site gives even more information if your interested.

God Bless you!
Patrick

You forced my hand Patrick.

This is what Im talking about:

*It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he **descended into hell."**482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but **to free the just who had gone before him ** *

Source: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm

Bolded mine.

God Bless,

MJ

 

[PJM]

=Servant19;11413703]That’s wonderful PR, however, one must not create a false dichotomy between faith and reason. One should not exist before the other, they go hand in hand. Faith must be reasonable, otherwise one can fall into the trappings of belief in superstitions and vain imaginings.

There are many in the world who truly believe that Elvis is still alive, having sworn with hand on heart that he was seen alive at the mall, airport, police station etc. They have two choices with this faith. Spend their whole lives trying to understand, seeking it to be certainly true, Fides quaerens intellectum, or they can rationalise it first and get on with their lives knowing full well that dead people don’t just roam around the streets after they’re dead.

Does that make sense.

We have here a few rational positions.

We both agree that:

1. God is All-Just, and All-Loving
2. Abraham was a Prophet of God, God’s consort, Friend, and Selfless Servant, the most important human foundation to religious truth today.
3. Abraham died
4. Jesus came several centuries later.

Now for God to send such an important Figure in His Divine Plan into a “waiting room” upon death, oozes injustice and severe unlovingness. How is that not rational to you?

Or is Elvis still alive?

NO Not at all

We can KNOW this because [1] God is good and “perfectly good” = Devine - unfailing “Justice” [2] “time” is a human invention: For God, EVERYTHING is in the “now.”
[3] There is no suffering in “limbo”. Rather, not too disimilar from “purgatory”;[in purgatory there is gladly endured suffering], there IS a sense of future expectation. There is Joy; but incomplete. Perhaps even without an awareness of this fact, until it hapened?

As for Elvis; I heard him singing on the radio; that means he’s alive RIGHT:shrug:

God Bless you my friend,
Patrick

 

[MartinJordan]

Correct. It must also be pointed out that “Limbo of Infants” is a theological theory and not a dogma or doctrine of the Church.

Thanks for the heads up!

MJ

 

[nmgauss]

[2] “time” is a human invention: For God, EVERYTHING is in the “now.”
Patrick

If time is a human invention, how to you explain that starlight is millions of years old?
Einstein has proven that dimensions of reality are width, length, height, and time. Also, physicists have proven that it is impossible to determine the location of a subatomic particle and measure its velocity simultaneously. Velocity is distance/time. If time was a human invention, the speed of moving objects would not be even considered.

 

[Servant19]

And this is the very question that has never been answered by a Baha’i poster. I don’t believe they have any idea that they need to be saved or from what they need to be saved. Therefore salvation becomes an ideal life on earth rather than eternal life in the presence of God. Maybe the best we can hope for is “invincible ignorance” on the part of the Baha’i.

Hi Steve, maybe you wouldn’t mind elaborating what you think is the Catholic perspective on what we need to be saved from?

Lets start from the very basic stuff and go from there…

 

[Servant19]

I look forward to hearning from you my friend!

Patrick:thumbsup:

Hi Patrick,

I responded to your post with some questions. It was post #425

God bless you

 

[Servant19]

SLOW DOWN THERE friends; a partial truth is NOT THEE truth. kindly take the time to share ALL of it; or none of it.

Abraham was NEVER in “hell” he was in the “limbo of the fathers”

Fr/ Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary:http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11413354
LIMBO. The abode of souls excluded from the full blessedness of the beatific vision, but not suffering any other punishment. They enjoy the happiness that would have been human destiny if humans had not been elevated to the supernatural order.

Catholic theology distinguishes two kinds of limbo. The limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum) was the place where the saints of the Old Testament remained until Christ’s coming and redemption of the world. The limbo of infants (limbus infantium) is the permanent state of those who die in original sin but are innocent of any personal guilt."

This site gives even more information if your interested.

God Bless you!
Patrick

Hi Patrick,

What is the Catholic Faith’s perspective on the concept of time in the afterlife?

 

[Servant19]

You forced my hand Patrick.

This is what Im talking about:

*It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he **descended into hell."***482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but **to free the just who had gone before him **

Source: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm

Bolded mine.

God Bless,

MJ

“Descending into hell” implies that Hell is a physical place. Is that correct Martin?

 

[Servant19]

NO Not at all

We can KNOW this because [1] God is good and “perfectly good” = Devine - unfailing “Justice” [2] “time” is a human invention: For God, EVERYTHING is in the “now.”
[3] There is no suffering in “limbo”. Rather, not too disimilar from “purgatory”;[in purgatory there is gladly endured suffering], there IS a sense of future expectation. There is Joy; but incomplete. Perhaps even without an awareness of this fact, until it hapened?

As for Elvis; I heard him singing on the radio; that means he’s alive RIGHT:shrug:

God Bless you my friend,
Patrick

Thankyou for this Patrick. I understand what you are saying.

My question refers to the “experiential” condition of Abraham’s soul which was in a condition of “lesser” joy than, for example, Peter, or Paul? How is this reflective of justice and love?

 

[daler]

daler,

nothing in your citing of bahaullah’s writings contains anything new to a follower of Christ.

like i said, bahaullah adds nothing to the revelation of Christ. this is the case most certainly because it is obvious bahaullah knows little about the revelation of Christ. but, it also is apparent because nothing bahaullah provides is necessary for salvation.

salvation has already been accomplished prior to the existence of bahaullah and salvation is the primary desire of God’s will for mankind.

this makes bahaullah’s very existence superfluous to a human being’s existence. bahaullah has nothing to add to our lives because everything we need has been given to us through the resurrection, life and sacrificial death on the cross of Jesus Christ.

you do not understand this because you have so little knowledge of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

but the bottomline is that after Christ frees us from our sins and opens to us the gates of heaven nothing more is needed for any human being in the realm of the spirit.

God has granted me through the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ the opportunity for salvation, complete and perfect union with Him.

i am serious when i ask, what does a human being need beyond faith in the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the divine grace that originates from that sacrifice?

Eddie,
. I’m not sure how to answer you in a way that conveys the sincerity of my own beliefs in Jesus Christ. I was born and raised going to the Methodist church, believing for the most part pretty much everything you believe in the same way that you do.

. I have always regarded myself as a “follower of Christ”, and it is simply my testimony that He led me to Baha’u’llah. I know that you cannot understand that, nor that the Words of God which have come through Him are to me in fulfillment of the words of Jesus about the Spirit of Truth coming with all truth. I understand your position, about Pentecost, etc, as I held that common interpretation myself.

. What really troubles me is the anger I hear from you as though you feel that by attacking Baha’u’llah and those who have come to believe in him you are acting any differently than Saul before he had his vision and became Paul. I have been like you and like Saul, but like Paul, I have had a vision which changed my entire perception. Now I see what I formerly did not see, my friend.

. When Paul had his vision, he had no more anger. He no longer persecuted Christians. He became one himself, you know. I used to scoff and huff like I see you doing, and thats ok, I’m not putting you down, but telling you very plainly that I see you in the position of Saul stoning Stephen, albeit on the Internet with words instead of rocks.

. Just being very plain and honest with you my friend. Please throw all the rocks or words that you need to to empty your heart. My cheek is turned to you again and again…

. God bless you, brother Eddie,

. Dale

 

[daisychain]

And I would tell her that the Reverend Fred Phelps is wrong.

Are you able to say that?

Or are you of the opinion that what the Rev Fred Phelps preaches is just another way of looking at God’s love?

See this example of what Rev. Fred Phelps preaches: elizabethgrattan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/phelps.jpg

I am not usually afraid to voice my opinion, so I’d probably try to talk with her.
With regards to your second question the Rev. might be taking the teachings to the extremes…which did and does happen throughout the centuries on occasions to all churches and individuals alike…
But the path is narrow (Matthew 7:14). I’ve always thought that the narrow path was actually right in the middle of the wide road, free of extremities either way, like a perfectly “balanced” way of living. So the real question is how far would you go to try to prove your point…how far can you go and still remain loving and how far should you go to become truly loving…and is she/he/anybody wrong or just off the golden mean…

 

[PRmerger]

I am not usually afraid to voice my opinion, so I’d probably try to talk with her.
With regards to your second question the Rev. might be taking the teachings to the extremes…which did and does happen throughout the centuries on occasions to all churches and individuals alike…

Excellent!

So you can see how what we are doing here on the CAFs is the paradigm you are espousing: talking to people who have embraced lies and expressing truths that have been revealed by Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

We believe that even if we obey God’s laws, it’s His Mercy that gets it into Paradise. So we believe that salvation is based on both works and God’s Mercy.

Do you believe that someone can stand before God and state, “Hey, I sacrificed my son Isaac (well, almost) for you! It is my right to be in heaven now. I demand that you allow me to enter, else you are an unjust God”?