What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[MartinJordan]

Ok, let me re-phrase this one*** just for you*** brother Martin. Here you go

Actually God isn’t Just. If He was just, we’d all be dead.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Actually God isn’t Just. If He was just, we’d all be dead.

MJ

Well, I would be dead anyway
I tried to enrol into RCIA and they said they won’t let me in, they need to pray for me for at least 1 year first!



…seriously, you don’t think God is just?

 

[MartinJordan]

Well, I would be dead anyway
I tried to enrol into RCIA and they said they won’t let me in, they need to pray for me for at least 1 year first!

They probably see something you don’t so they need to pray for you first. :yup:

…seriously, you don’t think God is just?

God’s Justice is beyond humans. Thus you could say His Love saves us, verses his own Justice.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

God’s Justice is beyond humans.

I agree

That’s why if I can be just towards my humble gardener, then God’s justice makes original sin look inhumane, don’t you think? Rationally?

Thus you could say His Love saves us, verses his own Justice.

MJ

I would totally agree, His love does save us.

Why couldn’t His love save Abraham though?

 

[Servant19]

They probably see something you don’t so they need to pray for you first. :yup:

What am I missing Martin??

 

[MartinJordan]

I agree

That’s why if I can be just towards my humble gardener, then God’s justice makes original sin look inhumane, don’t you think? Rationally?

You sure you want to trust your human rationality? All need God’s Grace first.

I would totally agree, His love does save us.

Why couldn’t His love save Abraham though?

The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob is God of the living. Thus they (not only Abraham) were not in torment but awaiting Heaven.

They were saved from hellfire in other words. God’s Love assures this.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

You sure you want to trust your human rationality? All need God’s Grace first.

Amen brother
All need God’s grace first indeed. Is human rationality not a product of the grace of God?

The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob is God of the living. Thus they (not only Abraham) were not in torment but awaiting Heaven.

They were saved from hellfire in other words. God’s Love assures this.

MJ

I have highlighted the word “awaiting” because this brings up another rationality issue. Is there ‘time’ in the afterlife? If Abraham was awaiting heaven, then there must be time.

Rational discourse would suggest that since the physical sun is not part of the spiritual realm, then there is no time, and hence Abraham would, upon death, be able to be in heaven instantly, since Jesus has already BEEN within a timeless arena…no?

 

[MartinJordan]

Amen brother
All need God’s grace first indeed. Is human rationality not a product of the grace of God?

I have highlighted the word “awaiting” because this brings up another rationality issue. Is there ‘time’ in the afterlife? If Abraham was awaiting heaven, then there must be time.

Rational discourse would suggest that since the physical sun is not part of the spiritual realm, then there is no time, and hence Abraham would, upon death, be able to be in heaven instantly, since Jesus has already BEEN within a timeless arena…no?

We’re dwelling into a more nuanced territory. Why not do some research on CAF because the subject matter may not necessarily fit in the non-Catholic section.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

We’re dwelling into a more nuanced territory. Why not do some research on CAF because the subject matter may not necessarily fit in the non-Catholic section.

MJ

Fair enough brother. Nice exploring this with you


I’ll do some research now while I have a free slot of time

 

[Servant19]

I’m quite late getting into this conversation, so I’ll respond to the OP; not the more recent comments.

There are several highly signifiant points to make

[1] The Incarnation fulfilled OT prophisies of the Messiah: Man actually SAW God!

[2] What Moses accomplised was accomplised THROUGH God

What Christ accomplised was accomplished through Himself; WITH the Father & Holy Spirit

Hi Patrick

In light of what you have posted (and a wonderful post it was too btw) how would you reconcile your comments with this verse from 1Timothy 2:5?

***For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. ***

[3] Among the MOST significant differences are these three realities

[a] GRACE was now the factor for salvation; not just the “law”

Very interesting observation Patrick

Can you please explain “how” grace is a factor in salvation?
Is a Jew following the “law” not privy to any grace at all?
Finally why would God change the main factor towards salvation from the Law to grace?

If, as I believe, God’s grace has always showered upon His creation, then do you believe that Gods grace is not showered upon those who do not follow the Law within Jewish Teaching?

** Man was able for the first time KNOW God; not just know “Of God” as did Moses**

Can you please clarify how Jesus enabled one to “know” God? And did that differ to what Moses provisioned?
PJM;11409005:

[c] Christ Instituted the SEVEN sacraments; 3 of which play critical roles in the meriting of ones Salvation:

Baptism

for BOTH genders introduced a new level of importance for women as well as making it POSSIBLE for EVERYONE to become a “child of God.”

"Confession/ Reconcillation" actually permits Catholic Priest to FORGIVE all sins in Christ name and with His Authority. OT priest the sins were merely “covered over”.

Eucharist/ Catholic Holy Communion/ THEE REAL PRESENCE OF GOD/CHRIST IN OUR MIDST:thumbsup:

It’s a great question; perhaps a difficult one to comprehend for our non-catholic friends?

God Bless you!
Patrick

Thank you Patrick, by what basis do these sacraments work Ex opere operato?
Does a man who has committed adultery or murder receive the Holy Spirit through these sacraments?

God bless

 

[daler]

Actually God isn’t Just. If He was just, we’d all be dead.

MJ

. “The essence of wisdom is the fear of God, the dread of His scourge and punishment, and the apprehension of His justice and decree.”

(Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 155)

. " not cringe before Him as before a tyrant, but know His Mercy exceeds His Justice!"

 

[MartinJordan]

. “The essence of wisdom is the fear of God, the dread of His scourge and punishment, and the apprehension of His justice and decree.”

(Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 155)

. " not cringe before Him as before a tyrant, but know His Mercy exceeds His Justice!"

I like the last line. The thing is Catholicism already have taught this. Infact one of our Saints had a vision when God spoke to her. Catherine of Siena (from 1380 A.D.)

St. Catherine of Siena (d.1380) prayed, “Oh, Divine Mercy!. . . On
every side which I turn my thought I find nothing but mercy.”

God the Father said to her: “I gave My Word, My Only-begotten Son,
because the whole. . . human generation was corrupted. . .[that]
He might endure suffering in that self-same nature in which man
had offended. . .so ** He satisfied My justice and My Divine Mercy.
For My Mercy willed to make satisfaction for the sin of man and
to dispose him to that good for which I had created him. . . My
mercy is greater without any comparison than all the sins which
any creature can commit. **. . it greatly displeases Me that they
should consider their sins to be greater. Despair is the sin
which is pardoned neither here nor hereafter, and it is because
despair displeases Me so much that I wish them to hope in My
mercy at the point of death, even if their life has been
disordered and wicked.”

MJ

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t believe heaven is my right. ('m going straight to hell )

You ought to be trembling at the thought, rather than putting a smiley face, if that’s what you truly believe.

I simply can see a good man being treated unjustly.

Then you must think that all of us here on earth who aren’t in heaven yet are being treated unjustly.

Right?

What did Abraham **do **wrong?

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that you are on a works-righteousness forum. Muslims and Mormons believe that heaven is their right based on what they do, as per my understanding.

Catholics do not believe that we get heaven because of what we do.

We get heaven because of what Jesus did.

Would you be content if Baha’u’llah had said that Jesus was in hell until Baha’u’llah set Him free? It would be utter blasphemy, heaven forbid!

How is it that Bahaullah would set anyone free? Do you claim that he is the lamb of God?

 

[PRmerger]

That’s wonderful PR, however, one must not create a false dichotomy between faith and reason.

Amen! Very Catholic, this.

 

[PRmerger]

We have here a few rational positions.

We both agree that:

1. God is All-Just, and All-Loving
2. Abraham was a Prophet of God, God’s consort, Friend, and Selfless Servant, the most important human foundation to religious truth today.
3. Abraham died
4. Jesus came several centuries later.

Now for God to send such an important Figure in His Divine Plan into a “waiting room” upon death, oozes injustice and severe unlovingness. How is that not rational to you?

Because you seem to think that you can go before heaven and demand entry because of what you did.

*That *oozes injustice and a wee bit o’ presumption.

Abraham needed Jesus to take him to heaven. As Jesus had not yet accomplished his mission (it was not yet “finished”), Abraham was sent to a waiting room.

And the waiting room was better than what we all deserved, prior to the atonement.

What a merciful God we Christians have!

 

[Servant19]

Then you must think that all of us here on earth who aren’t in heaven yet are being treated unjustly.

Right?

Nope, you reap what you sow from the moment your life begins according to my understanding of ALL religious Words. The justice is manifestly obvious in this life.

What do you see as an injustice on earth PR?

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that you are on a works-righteousness forum. Muslims and Mormons believe that heaven is their right based on what they do, as per my understanding.

Nope again, I’m a FAITH AND DEEDS kinda guy. Have Faith in God, and adhere to His Will for the age in which I live in

Catholics do not believe that we get heaven because of what we do.

Is this another false dichotomy from you here PR?
I can list a dozen works related verses from the Bible for you, we can start from James.
Even the Pope acknowledged the value of deeds for atheists, “Just do good” were his words

We get heaven because of what Jesus did.

And what did Jesus do that gives you straight passage to heaven. If you get to heaven because of what Jesus did, then you can go ahead and have your 10 affairs, steal from your neighbour and spit at the poor and needy, heaven is already a given…

How is it that Bahaullah would set anyone free? Do you claim that he is the lamb of God?

…this was just an example to make a point, it seems you missed it sister, sista!!
(actually quite funny, I feel like I’m chit chatting with my sister when I talk with you)

 

[Servant19]

Because you seem to think that you can go before heaven and demand entry because of what you did.

*That *oozes injustice and a wee bit o’ presumption.

Abraham needed Jesus to take him to heaven. As Jesus had not yet accomplished his mission (it was not yet “finished”), Abraham was sent to a waiting room.

And the waiting room was better than what we all deserved, prior to the atonement.

What a merciful God we Christians have!

I am quite convinced you may are unaware what justice means.

Justice is a response to an action. If God is just, He would create a Creation which would reflect a reward for those that do His Will, and a punishment for those that turn away from His Will.

Is God just?

 

[Servant19]

Amen! Very Catholic, this.

Hey!!

Since, as a Catholic you expressed a false dichotomy, I think I have the right to say:

"Ya Baha’ul- Abha! Very Baha’i "

 

[meltzerboy]

Nice post again Meltzerboy

The validity of logic is based on the fact that rationality and reason is often based on “empirical reality”…

If the “empirical realities” of this world are discounted, then what else can we rely on to make judgemnts on truth and falsehood?

It is when one CLINGS onto a blatantly irrational concepts, even when it is pointed out in clear language, refusing to even “entertain” the thought that maybe more thought needs to be placed into the said concept, that the “disunity” of this world arises from.

I’m not even close to a very fair-minded, or just person, but when a man cleans my garden, I pay him promptly, not ask him to wait for 5 years in my waiting room…poor gardener.

My mum and dad were once told that tonight the face of Ayatollah Khomeini was to be seen on the moon. They all ventured out, and all the neighbours could see it…go figure

With regard to your last statement, psychologists are fond of saying that “Believing is seeing” rather than “Seeing is believing.” This may be applicable to a multitude of miracles. My “waiting room” analogy was meant to point out that sometimes waiting is a good thing, a kind and generous thing, something that is provided by others for our own benefit. It is often that way in this life when G-d does not answer our prayers immediately in the affirmative even though we believe ourselves to be “worthy” of instant relief from our suffering, and perhaps it is a similar situation in the afterlife.

 

[Servant19]

With regard to your last statement, psychologists are fond of saying that “Believing is seeing” rather than “Seeing is believing.” This may be applicable to a multitude of miracles. My “waiting room” analogy was meant to point out that sometimes waiting is a good thing, a kind and generous thing, something that is provided by others for our own benefit. It is often that way in this life when G-d does not answer our prayers immediately in the affirmative even though we believe ourselves to be “worthy” of instant relief from our suffering, and perhaps it is a similar situation in the afterlife.

You make valid points again Meltzer

I am concerned about the conflicting concepts of the “afterlife” (where there is no time) and “waiting”, and this is part of why I feel the whole thing is questionable…