What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

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I don’t think that religious differences are meaningless. People are different. If you were a teacher for example you’d know that children and adults learn differently and they have different abilities or talents, so you’d need to apply a variety of teaching methods.
Dear Daisy,
. Thank you for your refreshing perspective. The broad diversity in God’s creation is evident throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. How boring it would be if all flowers were only marigolds. Where would the daisies be? 😉

. So, too, if all animals were rabbits. Where would the fox be? And the elephant, and the squirrel?

. Human creativity comes from God. Perhaps God desires this wonderful diverse understanding. The great variety of religious expression among the many cultures of the world tell similar stories, but clothed in multi-colored hyacinths and roses filled with breath-taking fragrances.

. God is just so much bigger than some folks can handle. sigh… !

.
 
I think you would agree, friend, that given Abrahams selfless devotion to God, a waiting room is a manifest injustice. No?
That’s because you believe heaven is your right.

It is not. It is most presumptuous of you to believe, “Hey, I was selfless! Now you owe me heaven, God!”

 
No one has posited that “spiritual matters are about a circle”.

All I have said, as far as circles go, is that there is a truth, to which we all can arrive, and to which none of us has the right to re-define.

Thus, you don’t get to say that you now are going to declare this to be a circle.

http://wiki.urbandead.com/images/1/1c/Square.gif

Nor do you get to say that it’s the capital of France.

We are all confined by the Truth. As well as logic and reason.
PR,
. How are you, old friend? Very well and happy, I hope.

. Your exploration of the circle and the square bring back meaningful memories for me. When my Lakota Sioux friends describe the clash of Indian and White cultures, they use the Circle and the Square to explain the extreme differences between the two.

. They have always seen the world as circular, continuous, and eternal. When the white men came, they brought them a “Book”, in rectangular shape. They built square houses, and schoolhouses, with rectangular doors and windows, and handed them more square or rectangular books.

. They sat them down in square chairs at square desks and explained to them everything about the world in these terms. They wrote Treaties on rectangular sheets of paper, telling them how honest they were and what their intentions were. When they got the Indian people to sign these square pieces of paper, they promised them that as long as the grass shall grow and the wind shall blow, they would keep their promises in these Treaties, all of which were signed “In the year of our Lord, 1868… etc”

. They swore on their rectangular Bibles that their words were true, then promised to let the Indians live on Reservations drawn on more rectangular pieces of paper, showing them where their borders were, with square edges on the maps.

. Then they built prisons with bars at the windows, lines on more squares for them to look out of whenever they crossed the lines of the squares they drew on the maps. If they dared to cross these borders, they were “lined up” and shot square in the heart.

. They were beaten as children for speaking a single line of their own language, deprived of cereal which came in boxes, until they were good. Yes, the circle was round. It had no predetermined edges. The natural curvature of the rivers and the skies was not beautiful enough. The buffalo were not right for the land, so millions of them were slaughtered and cattle were brought in to live in square fields surrounded by barbed wire fences, strung from one corner of a pasture to another.

. To this very day, I know of Sioux Indians who are afraid to cross these lines for fear of the people who speak of the one who profess to believe in someone Who was nailed upon a cross of horizontal and vertical lines. The soldiers came in lines to enforce these ever-changing straight lines of the ever-shrinking reservations. The prisons are full of the people of the Circle. The ones who did not fit into the little boxes made by people of the Square…

.God bless us all. We dearly need it. May Wakan Tanka forgive us for our sins and help us to better understand each other. May He hasten the Day of the One Fold and the One Shepherd, the Sacred Hoop of all Nations…

. Mitakuye Oyasin (All my relations…) Aho!

.
 
And that’s why we’re here. So we can dialogue and come to an understanding of truth together. 🙂
There is a show on PBS called “Closer to Truth: Cosmos, Consciousness, G-d,” which you and others might be interested in. Some very informative dialogue there.
 
No one has posited that “spiritual matters are about a circle”.

All I have said, as far as circles go, is that there is a truth, to which we all can arrive, and to which none of us has the right to re-define.

Thus, you don’t get to say that you now are going to declare this to be a circle.

http://wiki.urbandead.com/images/1/1c/Square.gif

Nor do you get to say that it’s the capital of France.

We are all confined by the Truth. As well as logic and reason.
Isn’t there some process in mathematics called “squaring the circle”? Calling all mathematicians.
 
Isn’t there some process in mathematics called “squaring the circle”? Calling all mathematicians.
It has to do with “squaring”, as in 2 squared is 4.

Not with re-defining a circle to be called a square.
 
So a great Prophet like Abraham spends 1000 years in Hell, and a Catholic saint can go directly to Paradise?
As-Salaam-Alaikum

. We all need to allow Allah this right to decide, and not judge each other, nor the Prophets!!

. “Had God wanted, He could have granted them (unbelievers) victory, but He wants to test you through each other…” 😉

.
 
Fides quaerens intellectum, Servant.

That is the mantra of Catholicism.

Faith seeking understanding.
That’s wonderful PR, however, one must not create a false dichotomy between faith and reason. One should not exist before the other, they go hand in hand. Faith must be reasonable, otherwise one can fall into the trappings of belief in superstitions and vain imaginings.

There are many in the world who truly believe that Elvis is still alive, having sworn with hand on heart that he was seen alive at the mall, airport, police station etc. They have two choices with this faith. Spend their whole lives trying to understand, seeking it to be certainly true, Fides quaerens intellectum, or they can rationalise it first and get on with their lives knowing full well that dead people don’t just roam around the streets after they’re dead.

Does that make sense.

We have here a few rational positions.

We both agree that:
  1. God is All-Just, and All-Loving
  2. Abraham was a Prophet of God, God’s consort, Friend, and Selfless Servant, the most important human foundation to religious truth today.
  3. Abraham died
  4. Jesus came several centuries later.
Now for God to send such an important Figure in His Divine Plan into a “waiting room” upon death, oozes injustice and severe unlovingness. How is that not rational to you?

Or is Elvis still alive? 😃
 
That’s because you believe heaven is your right.

It is not. It is most presumptuous of you to believe, “Hey, I was selfless! Now you owe me heaven, God!”

http://media.tumblr.com/c0569ea4b1d95d1133a9d9c861572681/tumblr_inline_mhf45fEQkh1qz4rgp.gif
I don’t believe heaven is my right. ('m going straight to hell 🙂 ) I simply can see a good man being treated unjustly.

What did Abraham do wrong?

Would you be content if Baha’u’llah had said that Jesus was in hell until Baha’u’llah set Him free? It would be utter blasphemy, heaven forbid!
 
I don’t believe heaven is my right. ('m going straight to hell 🙂 ) I simply can see a good man being treated unjustly.

What did Abraham do wrong?

Would you be content if Baha’u’llah had said that Jesus was in hell until Baha’u’llah set Him free? It would be utter blasphemy, heaven forbid!
Er…Father Abraham looked forward to Jesus’ day.Because he knew God will not fail His promises.

MJ
 
Er…Father Abraham looked forward to Jesus’ day.Because he knew God will not fail His promises.

MJ
Yes of course Martin, but looking forward to a glorious religious Figure doesn’t mean that God loses His “All-Justness”.

Jesus looked forward to Baha’u’llah, but it doesn’t equate to Jesus being in hell, it’s the increased splendour of Gods Light which shines upon the world which Abraham was looking forward to
 
Faith must be reasonable, otherwise one can fall into the trappings of belief in superstitions and vain imaginings.

There are many in the world who truly believe that Elvis is still alive, having sworn with hand on heart that he was seen alive at the mall, airport, police station etc. They have two choices with this faith. Spend their whole lives trying to understand, seeking it to be certainly true, Fides quaerens intellectum, or they can rationalise it first and get on with their lives knowing full well that dead people don’t just roam around the streets after they’re dead.
Why can’t Elvis still be roaming around the streets? Jesus died on the cross and he roamed around for years afterward. He is probably roaming around heaven even as we speak.

One main feeling of Christians is that God is not of this world, nor is Jesus. Rather He is in heaven—i.e. He is “out there”. Thus if one wants to unite with God, one must perform emotional exercises (prayers) that help transcendence toward God. Since God is not immanent in this world, one must exert effort to try to reach “out there”.

Now doesn’t that sound reasonable?
 
Yes of course Martin, but looking forward to a glorious religious Figure doesn’t mean that God loses His “All-Justness”.

Jesus looked forward to Baha’u’llah, but it doesn’t equate to Jesus being in hell, it’s the increased splendour of Gods Light which shines upon the world which Abraham was looking forward to
Here you go again. You need to let go of your Bahai lenses,

MJ
 
Why can’t Elvis still be roaming around the streets?
I guess you could believe he is alive. Its a hypothesis, and you could spend you’re whole life trying to find him, so that your understanding can one day match your faith in him being alive, even though logic tells you that he died on Aug 16, 1977

Its the same with Abraham, you can spend your whole life trying to match your understanding with your “faith” that He spent several centuries in Hell, even though the logic of God being All-Just points to a completely different reality.

Your choice, but God gave us logic for a reason, to be able to discern truth from falsehood. If it defies rational logic, then its likely to be a falsehood. Thats my humble understanding and take on life and reality 🙂
Jesus died on the cross and he roamed around for years afterward. He is probably roaming around heaven even as we speak.
Is heaven a “place” then? If so it must be made of matter, and science will soon enough discover it. People can walk in and out of heaven as they please.
One main feeling of Christians is that God is not of this world, nor is Jesus. Rather He is in heaven—i.e. He is “out there”. Thus if one wants to unite with God, one must perform emotional exercises (prayers) that help transcendence toward God. Since God is not immanent in this world, one must exert effort to try to reach “out there”.

Now doesn’t that sound reasonable?
What does “out there” mean? Where?

Transcendence is not quantitative, its qualitative. Qualities do not have a “place” where they reside.

When you pray, and “transcend” (which is wonderful btw) do you physically float towards another “out there” place?
 
Majority wins; case closed…well, not really. But you make a good point, only it is mighty difficult to accept on a Catholic Forum, (Orthodox) Jewish Forum, or Islam Forum. We all believe we have the fuller truth, and we all have the faith and reason to show why. Probably none of us has the absolute truth, for, as I have previously stated, the ways and mind of G-d are beyond all human comprehension.
Nice post again Meltzerboy 🙂

The validity of logic is based on the fact that rationality and reason is often based on “empirical reality”…

If the “empirical realities” of this world are discounted, then what else can we rely on to make judgemnts on truth and falsehood?

It is when one CLINGS onto a blatantly irrational concepts, even when it is pointed out in clear language, refusing to even “entertain” the thought that maybe more thought needs to be placed into the said concept, that the “disunity” of this world arises from.

I’m not even close to a very fair-minded, or just person, but when a man cleans my garden, I pay him promptly, not ask him to wait for 5 years in my waiting room…poor gardener.

My mum and dad were once told that tonight the face of Ayatollah Khomeini was to be seen on the moon. They all ventured out, and all the neighbours could see it…go figure :rolleyes:
 
Friends, just to point out categorically, I have no doubt that Jesus Ministry did provide salvation, but obviously that is another thread.

In fact, the moment Jesus declared who He was, the salvific grace of Judaism ended.
 
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