What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[nmgauss]

If the answer to that person’s question is literally the Book of Revelation, yes it is.

If people don’t like the (correct) answer that they get, then there’s not much the answerer can do about that. If people are here reading and replying on an internet forum, they have the ability to go read the Constitution, the Book of Revelation, the Magna Carta or anywhere else the answers to their questions may be found.

How is it, exactly, that telling someone where to find the direct answer to their question isn’t answering a question, but simply parroting what that source says IS an answer?

If I told you to read all the books in the Library of Congress, you will find the answer, that does not help. Rather if you could condense the main thrust in the Book of Revelation, that would help a lot. Are you here to assign tasks, or are you here to promote conversation in a forum?

 

[Lochias]

I’m saying that rather than focusing on the differences we should focus on the similarities. And this is the way to manifest unity and to get closer to the understanding of “truth”.

Regarding the differences, we should understand them, acknowledge them, incorporate them as a society, but on a personal level we don’t have to agree with everything and we have to discern what works the best for us personally.

Your premise supposes that there is no one objective Truth, which is itself a logical fallacy; saying “Nothing is completely wrong and everyone must work out what works for them best” is presenting itself as an objective Truth…yet there are no objective Truths, because what works best for everyone is best, and that’s the Truth…yet there are no Truths…yadda, yadda.

There must, by fact of very simple logic, be a Truth that is objectively right. That’s the only possible conclusion that can be reached in a sane and rational manner.

 

[Lochias]

If I told you to read all the books in the Library of Congress, you will find the answer, that does not help. Rather if you could condense the main thrust in the Book of Revelation, that would help a lot. Are you here to assign tasks, or are you here to promote conversation in a forum?

Maybe I just have more faith in peoples’ ability to read and understand a single book of the Bible than you do?

Besides, see the post above. PRMerger directed an answer towards one book of the Bible…***you ***directed an answer towards an entire library. “Do as I say, not as I do”, eh?

 

[PRmerger]

I’m saying that rather than focusing on the differences we should focus on the similarities. And this is the way to manifest unity and to get closer to the understanding of “truth”.

I think there is room for both views.

We as rational beings are certainly big enough to focus on multiple paradigms. We can focus on the differences, as well as focusing on similarities.

Regarding the differences, we should understand them, acknowledge them, incorporate them as a society, but on a personal level we don’t have to agree with everything and we have to discern what works the best for us personally.

If your daughter came home announcing she had joined the Westboro Baptist Church you would understand her decision, acknowledge it, incorporate it as your family, but tell her you don’t agree with everything the Rev. Fred Phelps espouses and that she has to discern what works for her personally?

Is that what you are saying?

I wouldn’t do that. I would tell my daughter that God does not HATE homosexuals, and that she is being duped into believing a lie.

 

[meltzerboy]

But before Abraham was, Jesus IS…so why would Jesus not show love towards Abraham for all His good work?

If I had an opportunity to reward Abraham for His loving, saintly and obedient work towards me, I would do in an instant, not have to wait in Hell for 1000+ years, thats pretty unloving.

Whether Abraham is/was in Sheol, Gehenna, Purgatory, or Heaven is not really a question that Jews feel competent to respond to, and neither do they generally ask these questions. The waiting in Hell for a thousand years of which you speak may seem like an eternity to us but not so for those who experience time differently after this earthly life. Think of Sheol as a “waiting room” in a doctor’s office that allows patients to become acclimated and more relaxed before they enter the doctor’s office, and can thus have them avoid the instantaneous shock of suddenly facing the magisterial physician.

 

[daisychain]

There is no reason to create a dichotomy here.

Both are true.

You seem to be saying that my position is false, while yours is true.

While I am saying: we are both right.

How about that for irony, eh? Here you are coming to this thread saying that we can view things differently while both views still being true…yet you are objecting to my point.

So, are we agreed that unity fails, not only because people can talk about the same thing in different ways, but ALSO because some people are duped into believing LIES?

No I’m not saying that your position is false. Your position is your understanding, it is your opinion, like my position is my opinion. And I’m glad that you agree that we are both right:thumbsup:

I can see why you are saying that people may be “duped”, I just personally don’t like using this terminology because it can imply or justify a whole set of uncharitable acts or attitudes imho…

All the best.

 

[daisychain]

I think there is room for both views.

We as rational beings are certainly big enough to focus on multiple paradigms. We can focus on the differences, as well as focusing on similarities.

If your daughter came home announcing she had joined the Westboro Baptist Church you would understand her decision, acknowledge it, incorporate it as your family, but tell her you don’t agree with everything the Rev. Fred Phelps espouses and that she has to discern what works for her personally?

Is that what you are saying?

I wouldn’t do that. I would tell my daughter that God does not HATE homosexuals, and that she is being duped into believing a lie.

So basically you would tell her that you don’t agree with her, like me, and then what…because you can’t “force” her to convert back, you’d just have to continue loving her because you do no matter what…

 

[Lochias]

So basically you would tell her that you don’t agree with her, like me, and then what…because you can’t “force” her to convert back, you’d just have to continue loving her because you do no matter what…

Loving a person does not mean condoning the lifestyle that they’ve chosen. We can love someone despite the bad choices they make, but that doesn’t mean we gloss over or encourage an objectively bad or harmful choice on their part.

 

[daisychain]

Loving a person does not mean condoning the lifestyle that they’ve chosen. We can love someone despite the bad choices they make, but that doesn’t mean we gloss over or encourage an objectively bad or harmful choice on their part.

Well…if you tell them that you don’t agree with them like I said, than you are not exactly encouraging or condoning their view or behaviour…are you?

 

[eddie_too]

there is a world of difference between having the same goal and knowing what the goal is.

the vikings worship of their pantheon of gods does reveal that all mankind is naturally endowed with a search for God, but it reveals little more than that.

the RC worship of the Incarnate Word and the presence of divine intervention in human history reveals far more than the vikings pantheon of gods.

it is extremely sinful to possess the fullness of truth while simutaneously reducing the fullness of truth to a mere natural response to man’s innate desire for God by acting as though all roads to the truth are of equal value or equally valid.

 

[PRmerger]

So basically you would tell her that you don’t agree with her, like me, and then what…because you can’t “force” her to convert back, you’d just have to continue loving her because you do no matter what…

And I would tell her that the Reverend Fred Phelps is wrong.

Are you able to say that?

Or are you of the opinion that what the Rev Fred Phelps preaches is just another way of looking at God’s love?

See this example of what Rev. Fred Phelps preaches: elizabethgrattan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/phelps.jpg

 

[Lochias]

Well…if you tell them that you don’t agree with them like I said, than you are not exactly encouraging or condoning their view or behaviour…are you?

No, but it doesn’t send a very clear message, either…at the very least, they should know why I disapprove.

 

[eddie_too]

how can a human being spend eternity in perfect union with the Triune God if they do not believe there is a Triune God?

exactly where does the human intellect that rejects the Triune Nature of God end up in eternity?

it seems that it would be quite difficult to spend eternity with God when you do not even know He is Three Persons.

 

[meltzerboy]

I’m sure there are many things we do not know about G-d, probably more than we do know. Affirmed knowledge about the nature of G-d, which in some ways displays our arrogance, does not seem to me to be a sine qua non for spending eternity with G-d. I’m sure there are many, if not most, Christians who don’t understand the Trinity, and surely this does not mean they are doomed to hell. I would also bet that G-d, who has given us our intellect and our power to reason, does not punish us for using it even if we reach the wrong conclusion. G-d must be bigger than that, not to mention more merciful.

 

[rinnie]

I wouldn’t agree that “Baha’is are impossible to deal with”…

Shoghi Effendi the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith answered the question some years ago in terms of prophecy…

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father,” the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father,” …

~ Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 93

For more detail see:

bahai-library.com/lambden_quintessence_greatest_name

and

bahai-library.com/mazal_comparison_christianity_bahai&chapter=4

From what I have learned not impossible to deal with, they seem to be a very loving and humble group.

With that said very few of them agree with the next.

They seem to just throw out scripture, never defend it, or interpret it fully.

Its one man for himself it seems.

I have yet had one explain in simple terms what they truly believe. Its all over the place.

They say one truth, but then teach many. But you gotta love em. They are so kind and sweet, impossible to not like,

Hopefully someday they can find a way to relate to Christ through is RCC.

 

[eddie_too]

there are degrees of understanding.

the question is whether or not a human intellect that in this life does not seek the Triune God can in some unrevealed manner encounter Him after death.

the only eternal life that exists is perfect union with the Triune God.

 

[Servant19]

There is no reason to create a dichotomy here.

Both are true.

You seem to be saying that my position is false, while yours is true.

While I am saying: we are both right.

How about that for irony, eh? Here you are coming to this thread saying that we can view things differently while both views still being true…yet you are objecting to my point.

So, are we agreed that unity fails, not only because people can talk about the same thing in different ways, but ALSO because some people are duped into believing LIES?

PR, how do you know what is truth and what is a lie that people are duped into believing?

Spiritual matters are not about a circle…

 

[Servant19]

If the answer to that person’s question is literally the Book of Revelation, yes it is.

If people don’t like the (correct) answer that they get, then there’s not much the answerer can do about that. If people are here reading and replying on an internet forum, they have the ability to go read the Constitution, the Book of Revelation, the Magna Carta or anywhere else the answers to their questions may be found.

How is it, exactly, that telling someone where to find the direct answer to their question isn’t answering a question, but simply parroting what that source says IS an answer?

I hereby declare the answer to ANY AND ALL questions asked of me is " The Entire Revelation of Bahaullah"

(honey…can you put the kettle on!)

 

[Lochias]

PR, how do you know what is truth and what is a lie that people are duped into believing?

Spiritual matters are not about a circle…

Logic, reason, history and theology all play a part.

The circle is simply an analogy, which I think you know already.

 

[Lochias]

I hereby declare the answer to ANY AND ALL questions asked of me is " The Entire Revelation of Bahaullah"

(honey…can you put the kettle on!)

If you never want people to understand what you mean, fine.

In the meantime, if you ever want the answer to your question, the Book of Revelation is waiting.