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PRmerger
Guest
As you wish.
What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
See heres the thing which you need to clarify but you refuse. You are implying that there is one manifestation that changes from generation to generation, yet you want then affirm at another time they are distinct individuals. What is it? Im sorry but Im tired of this game and the seeming fruitlessness of bahai trying explain their dogma. There are terms which you could use but refuse to use. Is Jesus and mirza hussain the same person? That is the same soul just taking on different bodies in every generation? Bahai don;t answer this question and this why it is impossible for others to take your religion seriously. You lack a clear definition of faith, it is a vague and mysterious religion in which the basic components of your faith mean nothing in the end except what you make them.Yes He is, but in the realm of dominion, the realm where “before Abraham was, I am” He is not known as Jesus.
In this physical realm, His name changes from age to age. In this age, He is known by a different name (who’s name I will not mention)
“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.“ (Revelation 3:12)
Now, Jesus says before Abraham was I am. You are interpreting this seemingly to mean that Jesus was Abraham. Or you mean something totally different that there was this spirit or title they both have, you refuse to clarify. The New testament implies no such thing. To say Jesus was Abraham is ultimately to accuse Jesus of sin, for Abraham slept with his wife’s servant, which is a sin. To say Jesus is in any sense Moses is wrong, for Moses refused to obey God and thus sinned. We are told in the new testament that Jesus was without sin, therefore he could not be these flawed individuals of the old testament, great though they be. John tells us that the word did not become flesh with Adam or Abraham or whatever you believe, the word became flesh with Jesus Christ.
Your theology is an addition to the gospel message of Christ that he and his apostles never taught. Why should we take this new gospel seriously? Why is Jesus greater than Moses if they were the same individual, just with a different body?
Bahai, you need to define your terms. You need to understand your theology whatever it is. Hold a council of Nicea, you need it.
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Servant19
Guest
Hi Ignatian,
Unfortunately you do not read the threads when you post, even when you ask a question and it is answered for you
You ask how can Jesus and Muhammad (for example) be distinct yet at the same time One. The Baha’is addressed this very question for you with links to comprehensive theology and everything here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11080278&highlight=lahut#post11080278
Beacuse I love you dearly and want you to be given EVERY chance to understand, I will try and address it again for you
The human frame of a Manifestation of God such as Jesus is still made up of atoms, and His humanity is also attached to a soul. His soul was attached to His human frame at conception, just like every other human being. Otherwise He will not be able to be visible, talk, eat, etc etc. He was a human being with TWO ASPECTS, physical body and soul
If you are on this earth as a human being, you cannot speak to anyone without those two asepects.
Baha’u’llah has clarified what the “before Abraham was, I am” aspect is. THIS IS A THIRD ASPECT ONLY FOUND IN THE MANIFESTATION OF GOD
As a human being with two aspect, we do not have a conscious soul prior to conception, but Jesus did, and so did all the other Manifestations of God:
Where does this “alternative” consciousness come from? Can’t be the human soul, it is not conscious until conception.
Baha’u’llah says that the Manifestations of God are given “pre-conception” consciousness through their THIRD ASPECT (which no other human being shares)
They are a branches of a SINGULARITY. This SINGULARITY is their THIRD ASPECT and Baha’u’llah defines this realm as the realm of "lahut"
I hope this is explained now and we can move on
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Servant19
Guest
Good question, and unquestionably Jesus was greater than Moses
Why?
As I explained above, they both dwell in the SINGULARITY known as lahut. In that realm they have “essential unity”
Why Jesus was greater was because of the increased “potency” of His Person as a model for His teachings. His teachings elevated humanity to the next level of maturity.
Just like the sun. The noonday sun is “greater” than the sun at dawn, yet they are not two suns, they are the same sun (essential unity), but while the sun at dawn may elevate the plants and some animals to activity and maturity (for that day), it is the noonday sun which elevates all forms of life to some form of activity and maturity (for that day)
Hope this helps
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Servant19
Guest
Addressing this post from PR will hopefully also assist in understanding my post above.
PR says that “We get to heaven because of Jesus”
The Jewish response is why did God not open the doors of heaven through Moses, if that is the case?
The concept revolves around faith AND works
We were given the new commandment by Jesus and were told that there is salvation through Him. The reason why salvation is through Him is because He was the harbinger on the new commandment and the Embodiment of the Godhead for that age.
Why did Moses not do all these things? Why would God wait 1000 years after Moses to bring about a new commandment?
Was it hard for God to say “turn the other cheek” to the Jews? The Jews were incapable of practising the new commandment?
Well this is the question we should all ask. Was humanity ready for the new commandment during Moses’ time?
The time and the application of God’s laws amongst the generality of humanity, seems, from an objective standpoint, to be critical…
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Espero
Guest
Was Muhammed greater than Jesus because he elevated humanity?
Also, following this theology, maybe what Jesus brought that Moses didn’t was this elevated level of maturity
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I have read the threads and refuse to reread them. The bahai are unclear as to many issues and define them, not by clearly stating their position but instead quoting from their prophet whom they expect another person to immediately understand. Things don’t work like that, we cannot just read a work as vague as anything Mr Husain wrote and expect a nonbeliever who does not care about him in particular to take enough time to study everything he wrote, his surrounding context and etc in which you understand your particular idea of the bahai faith. That is unreasonable, thus you must try to define yourselves without relying on such things.
But in everything you have said, you have avoided my fundamental question. Is Jesus the same individual on the level of the soul as Abraham? Again bahai have never clarified this point or have been totally vague as to what they mean. I can no sense of what you believe when you refuse to clarify. You speak of Manifestations, as if there are multiple manifestations in the plural, each a separate spirit, yet another bahai comes along and speaks as If Abraham was Moses, was Jesus and etc. You need to clarify this, don’t expect people to understand the religion of a minority of people, essentially a cult which has barely two hundred years behind it. You have no excuse for not knowing Christianity since there are the definitions of the faith throughout two thousand years of councils and theologians talking and communicating.
Now servant, I deny your claim that Jesus evolves every time he is incarnated. I deny he is incarnated more than once, in the person of Jesus Christ as the New Testament says. The New testament has no idea of this mysterious theology of yours (I can only assume you as a bahai believe there is one manifestation continues to evolve and grow each time he reveals himself from the way you are speaking, so don’t accuse me of misrepresenting you). The word became flesh not with Abraham, Abraham heard of the day of Christ and was glad, Moses prophesised of one greater than him, they never promised to return. I can only go by the New Testament and not your revelation, you have to demonstrate your understanding is what the New testament authors intended and I do not think you can do this.
When people in the New Testament speak of Jesus and Moses, they never confuse the two; they never speak as if they were the one individual. There is not this sense (in which the bahai apparently believe) in the early church, they viewed the prophets different from Jesus and had no concept of manifestationism. Why should we accept your novel and new interpretation against what we have received in the apostolic deposit of faith of the church?
But you have already conceded to the thread the topic, Jesus was greater than Moses, servant. Now I want to ask you the next best thing, is Jesus the fullness of salvation? What aspect of salvation is lacking in Jesus?
But in everything you have said, you have avoided my fundamental question. Is Jesus the same individual on the level of the soul as Abraham? Again bahai have never clarified this point or have been totally vague as to what they mean. I can no sense of what you believe when you refuse to clarify. You speak of Manifestations, as if there are multiple manifestations in the plural, each a separate spirit, yet another bahai comes along and speaks as If Abraham was Moses, was Jesus and etc. You need to clarify this, don’t expect people to understand the religion of a minority of people, essentially a cult which has barely two hundred years behind it. You have no excuse for not knowing Christianity since there are the definitions of the faith throughout two thousand years of councils and theologians talking and communicating.
Now servant, I deny your claim that Jesus evolves every time he is incarnated. I deny he is incarnated more than once, in the person of Jesus Christ as the New Testament says. The New testament has no idea of this mysterious theology of yours (I can only assume you as a bahai believe there is one manifestation continues to evolve and grow each time he reveals himself from the way you are speaking, so don’t accuse me of misrepresenting you). The word became flesh not with Abraham, Abraham heard of the day of Christ and was glad, Moses prophesised of one greater than him, they never promised to return. I can only go by the New Testament and not your revelation, you have to demonstrate your understanding is what the New testament authors intended and I do not think you can do this.
When people in the New Testament speak of Jesus and Moses, they never confuse the two; they never speak as if they were the one individual. There is not this sense (in which the bahai apparently believe) in the early church, they viewed the prophets different from Jesus and had no concept of manifestationism. Why should we accept your novel and new interpretation against what we have received in the apostolic deposit of faith of the church?
But you have already conceded to the thread the topic, Jesus was greater than Moses, servant. Now I want to ask you the next best thing, is Jesus the fullness of salvation? What aspect of salvation is lacking in Jesus?
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
The problem is you don’t understand God’s story. Gods story is not that he wants humanity to save themselves through sending prophets whose messages are immediately corrupted upon arrival. The story of the church, of the bible is one of God wanting to repair what was destroyed and lost in Eden. Bahais reject this idea, that anything was lost, that we were instead created imperfect with this terrible tendancy to sin. but the true story is different, the true story is that we fell from grace and God would not bare his creation to be handed over to corruption. So he determined from a righteous man, Abraham that his nation would be a light to the world, a light to the gentiles, he put them under law and told them to follow. The Only problem was that there was no chance of israel doing it, israel failed, Moses Failed. That is the interesting thing bahais ignore, the so called manifestations you profess, should be perfect, sinless, yet the bible you claim to believe tells us that they sinned, that they were imperfect. You have only responded in the past by trying to accuse Jesus of sin, which should tell you something. A perfect mirror should be a perfect mirror, not a stained mirror as Moses and Abraham neccessarily are to the bahai cause.
The story and the problem is solved in Jesus Christ who lived the truely human life. Bahai and secularists seem to think the normal life is to try to be good, try not to sin as much as possible and then die. That is not the human life, that is not what God intended, he did not intend for the world to be ruled by death. Death being something the bahai celebrate as eagerly as the gnostic. He intended for us to live forever, to be glorified, to be like Jesus in every respect. This is the true story of God and his relation to the world, that that mankind should save itself with rules and good behavior, but by following the example of Jesus.
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daler
Guest
Servant,You can choose to believe what you wish PR, but it’s not necessarily Truth.
As I say if any can tell me how many people are adherents of the so called “sects” of the Bahai Faith, I will personally give them free dental treatment for life (I’m a dentist and I’m happy to travel
I believe the official count of human membership in the totality of these sects worldwide is around 50 lost souls, dedicated egotists, attempting to get attention by any means possible, spread dishonest concoctions, attempt to poison the atmosphere in gatherings, and their chief goal is to create unity, which is the very anti-thesis of Baha’i belief, ie:
“Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind.” Baha’u’llah
So there are about 6 to 7 million Baha’is in the world absolutely united in the recognition of the Covenant of Baha’u’llah, His appointment of Abdul Baha as the Center of that Covenant, all accepting His appointment of the Beloved Guardian and 100% loyal to the Universal House of Justice, and about 50 egotists trying to get attention, some of them extreme mental cases with no following whatsoever pretending to be Baha’is, indulging in grandiose fantasies and wearing Napoleon hats. They are entirely cut of from the foundation of Covenant. I have met a couple, and it is as though meeting dead souls, lifeless and lost, hollow and empty… I suspect Eddie would thoroughly enjoy their companionship from the sounds of his depleted rants and fascination with divisive untruthful obsessions which lack clarity, and demonstrate no sign of the love of Christ in any of his posts. Perhaps he could be #51, but he would first have to acknowledge Baha’u’llah and then immediately deny His Covenant. Maybe working at a pretzel factory would help.
Sorry guys, got some pretty severe back pain mid and low and in between, on a few meds, and forgot to wind up my BS tolerance machine tonight. Please pray for me, my body tonight. Not usually this bad of shape. Tried everything lately: Chiropractor, shots, meds, and soon to receive radio ablation treatments. I don’t like to complain, but am coherent enough to see someone’s garbage for what it is and gotta say something. Hopefully this will soon pass. God bless everybody. Eddie, too, and especially so, as the need is so great! Peace, my brothers. Good will on earth.
“Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” The Lord’s Prayer of Jesus the Christ
PS Servant, I’ve got a bad tooth going on, a molar I need a little help with. How long are your instruments…
Love ya, brother.
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Kaninchen
Guest
I suppose an analogy might be to having an interest in how some feature of a car works, would you go to a mechanic or engineer or to a whatevermake dealers’ convention?
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daler
Guest
Espero,Was Muhammed greater than Jesus because he elevated humanity?
Also, following this theology, maybe what Jesus brought that Moses didn’t was this elevated level of maturity
Think of one plant. It starts out like Adam, a seed in a garden. Noah waters this seed. Abraham unfolds two little leaves, Isaac and Ishmael. Moses puts a stick in the ground for it to grow around. Jesus grabs a few grapes, blesses them, and lets people taste the fruit of the little tree so far, both Jew and Gentile. Muhammad gathers a nation to sample this tree’s fruit, water it a little more, but people fight over who’s tree it is.
Then the Bab comes and declares that the Owner of the Vineyard is coming. He comes, calls Himself Baha’u’llah, and talks about how it is and has always been one single Tree which He planted Himself about 6000 years ago. Immediately they stone Him, subject Him to the bastinado, beating the souls of His feet until He cannot walk, throw Him down three flights of darkness into a dungeon with thieves and assassins for four months in a place so vile it is called “The Black Pit” where few survive, put either of two hundred pound chains on Him the whole time, during which time the “Maiden of heaven” appears to Him and Revelation floods His being for the next 40 years night and day, as Noah said it would.
Isn’t this great stuff?
And its all from one tiny seed, planted 6000 years ago, and still growing in a little pasture called earth with One Fold and One Shepherd. Yeah… you’re invited to have a taste of this sweet fruit yourself. I eat it everyday. Yummy. Unity… Love… World Peace… No more racism… Education for all… the Sacred Hoop of All Nations… and its a free concert, man!! .
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PRmerger
Guest
This is a non-sequitur. “If that is the case” does not follow from “we get to heaven because of Jesus.”
However, to answer your question as to why God did not open the doors of heaven through Moses: because no human person could pay for the sins of humanity. Only a divine person could.
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PRmerger
Guest
Source, please?
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PRmerger
Guest
No, Servant.
Salvation is through Him because He was the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
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Servant19
Guest
Yes, so why was Moses not given the task of providing salvation?
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Servant19
Guest
Why did God not make Moses the Lamb of God?
…or Abraham for that matter?
(could’ve saved Him from all that waiting)
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Servant19
Guest
Why did God not make Moses a divine Person?
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PRmerger
Guest
I don’t know.
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Servant19
Guest
I’ll tell you why PR.I don’t know.
Its because there was salvation through Moses too
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PRmerger
Guest
What do you mean by “salvation”?I’ll tell you why PR.
Its because there was salvation through Moses too
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