What Did Jesus Write in the Sand?

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Hi, kimmielittle!

I am not suggesting that Jesus did not write on the sand; my concern is that (when reading through this thread) too many are claiming that Jesus wrote down pertinent material on the sand and that the people seeking to harm the woman or Jesus’ Ministry responded not to Jesus’ body language and challange but to some “perceived” list of sins written on the sand…

speculation is an exercise of the mind… I find no fault with it… but when postulation replaces actual Scripture we all lose…

Maran atha!

Angel
Hiyas 🙂
Great points:thumbsup:👍
I do hope my joke is seen as nothing more or less than that. I wouldn’t postulate on something that I know can only be speculation on our parts. Jesus knows what He wrote…we do not. “If He wanted us to know He woulda taught” it to us.
 
…but which scolars? …what determining factors did they have that “others” were not able to access? …since they do not quote actual scrolls, what are the sources they use to determine what is or is not part of the original scrolls? …who determined that that source is genuine/correct?

Maran atha!

Angel
I don’t know, but the Oxford Dictionary is world-renowned, so it’s doubtful they would lie or make things up.

But here is another reputable Web site that gives all sides to the forgery question: religioustolerance.org/john_8.htm

The New International Version of the Bible states:

“The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53 - 8:11.”

The above, I know, is true because I have an NIV Bible and I just looked at it.

Then we have this:

The “Interpreter’s One Volume Commentary on the Bible” states:

“7:53-8:11: This passage is omitted or set off in modern editions of the gospel since it does not appear in the oldest and best manuscripts and is apparently a later interpolation. In some manuscripts it occurs after Luke 21:38.”

Then it finally states:

There is general agreement that the verses from John 7:53 to John 8:11 were not written by the author or authors who wrote the rest of the gospel. It was probably based on a story about the life of Jesus that had been often told, and was passed orally down through the centuries. Copyists then inserted it into various gospels.

Like I said, I don’t know. I just know what I read. If someone has a site or source that says different, I’d like to see it, please.
 
It seems, to this reader, that The Alexandrian Church Scribes, knew of it but but omitted it. This can be seen in their punctuations and spaces, inserted where this verse was omitted. Indicating “knowledge” of it’s presence. So this statement, “The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53 - 8:11.”, would be true, however, it’s too simplified. As it doesn’t say the ONLY earliest manuscripts available, to us now, were written by Alexandrian scribes ( copyists ), of Egypt. It’s statement is being too definite - the final say, so to speak. Logic tells us, this is ONLY definite, until other sources might be recovered.

Logic, also says we can “accept” a given, without proving. i e. Master Einstein’s “Bend Of Fabric” I can accept as factual. Simply on the merits of others who have researched it. I only need to prove/disprove - if I intend to promote my thoughts - theory’s as more than speculations.

Since this Scripture has been defended by Church Fathers…I do accept.

Here is a good link newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm
 
I don’t know, but the Oxford Dictionary is world-renowned, so it’s doubtful they would lie or make things up.

But here is another reputable Web site that gives all sides to the forgery question: religioustolerance.org/john_8.htm
IMHO…Any website that has a title " Forgery in The Gospel of John", I would suggest as NOT being unbiased. The title seems to say, they have already made up their minds. Thus goes their credibility of being and unbiased source.

When I read a web page I search first who it represents.
Who their page sponsors are…etc…

Try their “who we are page” here religioustolerance.org/index_about.htm

It seems, to me, they support Everything. In short Humanist.

“We are a multi-faith group. As of 2008-FEB, we consist of one Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Wiccan and Zen Buddhist. Thus, the OCRT staff lack agreement on almost all theological matters, such as belief in a supreme being, the nature of God, interpretation of the Bible and other holy texts, whether life after death exists, what form the afterlife may take, etc.”

From their site here
http://www.religioustolerance.org/statbelief.htm

I hope this helps.
 
IMHO…Any website that has a title " Forgery in The Gospel of John", I would suggest as NOT being unbiased. The title seems to say, they have already made up their minds. Thus goes their credibility of being and unbiased source.
I have been using Religious Tolerance since my freshman year in college when it was presented to us in a religion class. They are very reputable. **They give all sides to every issue. **

But, again, Wikipedia cited the Oxford Dictionary as saying the same thing.

I certainly hope it isn’t a forgery; I just haven’t done enough research to decide one way or the other.
 
I have been using Religious Tolerance since my freshman year in college when it was presented to us in a religion class. They are very reputable. **They give all sides to every issue. **

But, again, Wikipedia cited the Oxford Dictionary as saying the same thing.

I certainly hope it isn’t a forgery; I just haven’t done enough research to decide one way or the other.
I have no doubt as to their honor, ( The folks at Religious Tolerance ) and I agree with some of their philosophies.
Am I willing to put my Catholic Faith in the hands of:
"
  • The coordinator and main author, Bruce Robinson, is a retired Electronics Engineer and an Agnostic. He was born in 1936 and graduated in 1959 from the University of Toronto with a BaSc degree in Engineering Physics. He worked as an Instrument development and computer science professional, both in supervisory and technical capacities for 38 years at a large multi-national chemical/textile fibers company. A significant part of his work was to write technical manuals. He has been a volunteer technical staff person for the * National Model Railroad Association*, and a vice coordinator for a local distress (suicide prevention) agency.
  • The office manager is a retired Registered Nurse and an Atheist, who has worked in a variety of fields: executive director of a shelter for abused women, head nurse in a hospital, and field worker for the Government of Ontario working in a disability support program.
  • One of our researchers is a Christian with a PhD in urban planning, and worked as a post-doctoral fellow at the * Sustainable Development Research Institute* in Vancouver, BC, Canada. She is now a professor at the Ryerson University.
  • Another researcher is a Zen Buddhist, was a IT system manager, and is now a post-production sound editor.
  • Our other researcher is a waitress, currently unemployed, and a Wiccan.
    None of us has any formal education in theology. We share about 230 feet of religious reference books, including an truly impressive array of religious hate literature. We are fortunate enough to live in a city with two universities and one community college. Between them, they have one theology department and multiple libraries. All of us are motivated by a concern about threats to religious freedom, and about religious hatred, misinformation, and discrimination. We have no underground, secret agenda."
No…I can not.
As I’ve stated elsewhere; "I can not accept humanistic theory as it’s based on “humans” alone…It’s completely ‘humanly’ subjective.

If it worked, it would be grand…but it’s ‘humanly’ fallible.
Humanistic theory relies upon a treaty with ALL other Humans.

How many “treaties” with say, the Native Americans…First People, have been kept? Not one. Maybe, signed in good faith ( faith here used as in our legal laws ), BUT quickly changed in the political wind of the time.

It just isn’t logical. Why? It depends on subjective thoughts alone. It allows each of us as ‘humans’ to do OUR will."

I guess the question goes to each of us: “What is my Faith going to be based on.?”

As to if it’s a forgery…No proof exists either way for a definitive statement one way or the other. The burden of proof lays with those who speculate it is a forgery. It maybe, common thought ( by some )…BUT my question remains…Since the earliest manuscripts…clearly show their omissions and “knowledge” of…

If they aren’t there to prove…???
Note: Some pages in the manuscripts seem, to be purposefully, removed. Whole pages, ripped out.

So, I’m left to depend upon Church Fathers who argued their favor.

No one has proved them wrong.
I accept.

Why they were omitted…we can see history in the Alexandrian Church and the subject those verses speak to - adultery. Adultery was an unspeakable sin, culturally and religiously. How much these verses could be seen as a threat? I speculate ( based on cultural regional beliefs rooted deeply, at that time ). …a GREAT deal.!!!

I hope this helps
 
Clarification: when I say omitted …I don’t mean just left out. I mean there is much evidence, supporting, purposeful removal. i.e erasures, passages inked over, empty spaces with punctuations ( a dot ) indicating this would go here normally ] where we would find these verses, ripped out passages.etc -
 
I found this non denominational site fascinating. adultera.awardspace.com/TEXT/MSS-top10.html

I have bracketed things I found interesting ]

"Codex D and the Pericope de Adultera
Codex D is obviously a unique and fascinating early textual witness. We cannot hope to untangle its mystery here. However, we can sum up a few salient points:
(1) Although D is a late 4th or early 5th century manuscript, it certainly represents a much older text. This is evident from its many early and primitive readings throughout. Whether some textual variations were ‘blended’ in or found in the master-copy from which it was made, these readings came from even older manuscripts. It cannot be dismissed as simply a 5th century ‘creation’ out of free literary or editing activity. Almost all of its significant readings, even the unique ones, demand serious attention from scholars, and many can be independantly confirmed as ancient.
(2) Regardless of its character, and even the character of the passage (John 7:53-8:11) under consideration, Codex D remains a powerful witness to the popularity of the Pericope de Adultera among both Latin and Greek readers prior to the 5th century. One critic has tried to dismiss this singular survivor as a mere ‘blip’ on the radar. But it appears to be the tip of a long lost iceberg.
(3) Although dated slightly after Jerome’s time (circa 380 A.D.), it is clearly not a copy of Jerome’s Vulgate. This is significant, because it confirms Jerome’s statement that there were many copies “both Greek and Latin containing the Pericope de Adultera in his own time”. Jerome obviously believed it was an ancient reading even then, for he explicitly states he bypassed the ‘editions’ of his contemporaries and sought out the most ancient manuscripts he could find to produce his Latin Translation. And here Jerome leaves no doubt as to his assessment of the passage, since he includes it in his Latin Vulgate, and it has stood there ever since.
Code:
              This having been said, it must be admitted that the version of the story in Codex **D** has suffered a few minor omissions and the dislocation of a verse, in comparison to the common version of the story found in the traditional Byzantine text. 
     But the value of Codex **D** is not so much in the word for word accuracy of its text (it may have been conformed to the Latin in places by its own scribe/editor). Rather it is in the undeniable testimony of the ***existance*** of the **Pericope de Adultera** in its standard place in John earlier than the 5th century.
And this is no real surprise after all. We have at least five early fathers testifying of its existance and authenticity at the turn of the 4th century: Ambrose, Didymus, Jerome, Augustine, etc., and many later fathers.
At least one critic has tried to get some mileage out of the fact that Codex D is the only 4th/5th century MS containing the verses. If Codex D didn’t exist, it is noted, the earliest surviving manuscript with the passage would be from the 7th or 8th century.
But this is a really a mistatement of the significance of the evidence. If pigs could fly, then yes, the Pericope de Adultera could be said to have flown into the stream of transmission in the 8th or 9th century. But pigs don’t fly, and the testimony of codex D alongside that of a dozen early fathers, some of whom were brilliant scholars and multilingual masters, makes it clear that our passage existed where it is today from times of the earliest surviving manuscripts.]"

It is lengthy view at early writings, BUT I enjoyed it. I only posted it’s summation. This sample is found near the bottom.
I think we can rest assured that before this sample, Church Fathers knew of this teaching and it’s significance.

I leave it for all.
Hi, kimmielittle!

Thank you for the info!

…this is the exact opposite of what the “most scholars” believe… my question is, why can’t these “scholars” accept the findings which seems to predate their “opinion” and is backed by authoritative sources who study the passage/s in question shortly after its inception?

I suspect that those “scholars” are not seeking so much the Truth as they are seeking notoriety. They reject anything that disagree with or disprove their opinions.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
There is general agreement that the verses from John 7:53 to John 8:11 were not written by the author or authors who wrote the rest of the gospel. It was probably based on a story about the life of Jesus that had been often told, and was passed orally down through the centuries. Copyists then inserted it into various gospels.
Hi, Beltany!

…please don’t misunderstand me… I do not fault you… my problem is with the “scholars;” though my skills are as pedestrian as they come, it seems to me that they go way out in an effort to authenticate their claims… of course stories about Jesus were passed down from one generation of Christians to another–that was the direct format used by Christ Himself! All we need do is read the Gospels and we will find that not a single time does it speak on any Teachings that Jesus wrote or had written down for His disciples! They, conveniently, forget that the early Church was borne in persecution and did not benefit, as we do, from the compilation of the Sacred Writings… Oral Traditions existed prior to the first Epistle; the Gospel of Luke offers a preamble which situates the development of the Writen Traditions–they do not even bother to investigate why the various claims that today’s “scholars” continue to introduce appear to have been a non-issue to the Apostles and the first century Church.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hiyas 🙂
Great points:thumbsup:👍
I do hope my joke is seen as nothing more or less than that. I wouldn’t postulate on something that I know can only be speculation on our parts. Jesus knows what He wrote…we do not. “If He wanted us to know He woulda taught” it to us.
Hi, kimmielittle!

…I did not mean to suggest that you were doing anything wrong… having a curious mind is a good thing… my concern is that sometimes we tend inject Scriptures with personal speculation and Scriptures become eroded as speculation seems more appealing than the Word… though I normally am against humanizing Christ (many take it to an absurd extreme), this passage, in my view, is showing us a very strong Christ dismissing the fake wisdom and feigned moral outcry of hypocrites whose main concern is not obeying the Law but, rather, setting a trap for Him–He ignores them, doodles on the ground, and challenges their feable righteous play… inevitably, they lose!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
It seems, to this reader, that The Alexandrian Church Scribes, knew of it but but omitted it. This can be seen in their punctuations and spaces, inserted where this verse was omitted. Indicating “knowledge” of it’s presence. So this statement, “The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53 - 8:11.”, would be true, however, it’s too simplified. As it doesn’t say the ONLY earliest manuscripts available, to us now, were written by Alexandrian scribes ( copyists ), of Egypt. It’s statement is being too definite - the final say, so to speak. Logic tells us, this is ONLY definite, until other sources might be recovered.

Logic, also says we can “accept” a given, without proving. i e. Master Einstein’s “Bend Of Fabric” I can accept as factual. Simply on the merits of others who have researched it. I only need to prove/disprove - if I intend to promote my thoughts - theory’s as more than speculations.

Since this Scripture has been defended by Church Fathers…I do accept.

Here is a good link newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm
I concur!

I too find the ambiguous language suspect… ie: “earliest and most reliable manuscripts,” this statement suggests that all the manuscripts have been found, that there are manuscripts which were deemed not reliable, and that some unnamed authority has deemed their source manuscripts as “reliable.” What about Church history? How can this unnamed authority disregard the testimonial of hundreds of Christians that spoke/wrote on this very same issue for hundreds of years?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
IMHO…Any website that has a title " Forgery in The Gospel of John", I would suggest as NOT being unbiased. The title seems to say, they have already made up their minds. Thus goes their credibility of being and unbiased source.

When I read a web page I search first who it represents.
Who their page sponsors are…etc…

Try their “who we are page” here religioustolerance.org/index_about.htm

It seems, to me, they support Everything. In short Humanist.

“We are a multi-faith group. As of 2008-FEB, we consist of one Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Wiccan and Zen Buddhist. Thus, the OCRT staff lack agreement on almost all theological matters, such as belief in a supreme being, the nature of God, interpretation of the Bible and other holy texts, whether life after death exists, what form the afterlife may take, etc.”

From their site here
http://www.religioustolerance.org/statbelief.htm

I hope this helps.
Hi, kimmielittle!

Excellent post! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

I too have come accross “reliable sources” that on the surface seem to be unbiased… but the anti-Christian sentiments always bleed through the deeper/longer you get to know them.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
The way I was taught Jesus the women was being stoned. Jesus said if any of you can say you have no sin you can cast the first stone. Not one person could throw a stone. Then Jesus said women where did everyone go. I do not know she said. So Jesus said then (he was righting in the sand) this was so she would not have to be embarrased then I also hold no sin against you. He forgave her for her sin, but he said Go then and sin no more. He was drawing circles in the sand. There were no words or meanings, the reason was again so he would not make her look him in the eyes. He felt she suffered enough, and did not make her suffer anymore!👍
 
… So Jesus said then (he was righting in the sand) this was so she would not have to be embarrased then I also hold no sin against you. He forgave her for her sin, but he said Go then and sin no more. He was drawing circles in the sand. There were no words or meanings, the reason was again so he would not make her look him in the eyes. He felt she suffered enough, and did not make her suffer anymore!👍
The problems with “teachings” like this is that they are mere speculations and should be presented as such. Maybe the priest called it speculation, and in the following years that tag was lost in your thoughts. But we simply don’t know what He wrote and can only guess.

With that in mind, Jesus was never averse to looking someone in the face even in compromising positions (He didn’t hesitate to point out to the Samaritan woman that after 5 husbands, she was living with another who wasn’t her husband).
 
Hi, kimmielittle!

Thank you for the info!

…this is the exact opposite of what the “most scholars” believe… my question is, why can’t these “scholars” accept the findings which seems to predate their “opinion” and is backed by authoritative sources who study the passage/s in question shortly after its inception?

I suspect that those “scholars” are not seeking so much the Truth as they are seeking notoriety. They reject anything that disagree with or disprove their opinions.

Maran atha!

Angel
You are most welcome.🙂
The fastest way to a PhD, is to ‘publish’ your thesis.
After that they need research funds. Which leads to the need of publishing a book.
What sells?
Conspiracy theories…i.e…The Kennedy Conspiracy Theory.
Theories are - subjective conjecture only. Based on - “what if’s”.

If I publish 800,000 books and no one disputes them…can I not say, 'It’s ‘commonly accepted’"? Albeit: I have failed to exhaust ALL sources. This is the statement Master Oxford, IMHO, has made, without ALL sources…including Catholic teachings.

ALSO the word “Forgery”, in scientific terminology, doesn’t have the same implications/connotations, normally associated to it.

How do you forge a copy of a copy? The manuscripts available for our studies, at this time, are just that. Facsimiles. Just as much so as our Bibles today are.
We clearly, don’t have the originals.
We can clearly see the need to copy, in order to have more available to the growing Church.
I wouldn’t release my Master Edition, but I would allow it to be copied.

Inspired accounts, yes.
Defended by Church…without a doubt.
I can accept.

Ps: just call me kimmie, if you wish.🙂
 
The problems with “teachings” like this is that they are mere speculations and should be presented as such. Maybe the priest called it speculation, and in the following years that tag was lost in your thoughts. But we simply don’t know what He wrote and can only guess.

With that in mind, Jesus was never averse to looking someone in the face even in compromising positions (He didn’t hesitate to point out to the Samaritan woman that after 5 husbands, she was living with another who wasn’t her husband).
6 boy friends??? Why.?? One would drive me to tears.😃

Good point about her though:thumbsup:
 
Hi, kimmielittle!

Excellent post! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

I too have come accross “reliable sources” that on the surface seem to be unbiased… but the anti-Christian sentiments always bleed through the deeper/longer you get to know them.

Maran atha!

Angel
Thank you.🙂

I’m a kid, we get bombarded with pages that try to “present themselves”, i.e Church of Scient…, cults, porn, even Humas supporters ( A page I went to, after the attacks in India, for reference - ‘presented’ as a news source] ), as unbiased reference sources. ALL seem innocent on the surface.

It’s dangerous enough out there.:(😦
Kids, don’t need hate.

BTW: I got this link
adultera.awardspace.com/TEXT/MSS-top10.html

from the wikipedia.org link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericope_Adulter...it’s the third reference down at the bottom of that article (well the face page). For the Record: I think wikipedia did a fair representation. BUT only if we read it’s entire context and then follow it out.
 
Regarding the Woman Caught in Adultery,

Here’s what Scott Hahn says in Scripture Matters:
The misuse of this passage is not something new. In fact, the story is actually missing from many ancient manuscripts of John’s Gospel, and many modern versions fo the Bible relegate it to a footnote or place it in brackets. (Indeed, some of the ancient manuscripts that omit the story do so with an indication that “something has been left out.” This is otherwise unprecedented in the New Testament.)
Apparently, in the early Church, the passage was sometimes omitted in order to avoid scandal. St. Augustine explained that moral rigorists tended to exclude the story because they feared it could lead people to a lax attitude about adultery.
At the Council of Trent, when the biblical canon was defined, this passage was authoritatively included in the Vulgate. The Magisterium confirmed the story’s place in the New Testament more than once in the twentieth century.
 
Regarding the Woman Caught in Adultery,

Here’s what Scott Hahn says in Scripture Matters:
SoOo Master Hahn…just gave my research and conclusions, in this matter… an A+ …VERY cOOl :):)🙂

( sorry, I know I’m supposed to be humble…I do try. BUT a good grade 🙂 ).

Thank you
 
Regarding the story of the adulteress who is about to get stoned?

Before Jesus made his famous, “Let he who is without sin cast the first Stone” statement, he wrote in the sand.

I have heard, or read, that Theologians speculate that Jesus was writing in the sand the sins of those with stones in their hands, and those that were trying to trip him up with this question.

I find this plausable. But what else does Jesus’s writing in the sand signify?
Could it be as simple as That THEIR sins were as numerous as grains of sand?..or
Does this point to some ancient custom? or Did one of the Patriarchs write something in the sand?
In the OT God wrote to Moses on Stone, which was the Law, and put in the ark of the old Covenant. In the NT Jesus’s Only writing is in sand and there’s ONLY speculation as to what is written? This HAS to signify Something???
God does everything for a reason.

It’s not that hard to know what Jesus wrote on the sand. We need only to think about what he said to the woman
afterwards.

When Jesus finished writing he asked the woman:
“Where are your accusers, has no man condemned you?” She answered and said, “No man, Lord.” Then Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” (John 8:8-11) Why couldn’t
the men condemn the woman? Because they were equally sinners. Why couldn’t Jesus either as he stated himself he wouldn’t? Obviously for the same reason: That he was also a sinner. Therefore, that’s what he was writing on the sand: That everyone alive on earth was a sinner, including himself. See? Not so hard.

Ben: <*)))>< :cool:
 
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