What Did Jesus Write in the Sand?

[twb1621]

---

You say: “And how about all the People that saw him come back from the dead?” Would you be so kind as to mention to me a single one who saw Jesus come back from the dead? Even the “angel” of Matthew, when he came down from heaven and removed the stone, didn’t see anything. The tomb was empty. What did he tell the women who had come to see the tomb? “He is not here.” (Mat. 28:6)

The only knowledge that all those people you are talking about had was that someone had raised Jesus from that tomb. And if you ask me, it happened during the night of Friday to Saturday when there was no one at the tomb area and everything was deserted. I wonder who could have raised Jesus from that tomb. Have you ever thought about Joseph of Arimathea? Think it through!

Ben:

Ok Ben, I myself have seen enough of your posts to recognize you find this as a form of entertainment but have absolutely no credible support for any of the statements you make against Christianity. Now to use a phrase you have used frequently, let me teach you something regarding humanity that is of our nature and can not be denied, true today as was true during the days of Christ’s ministry. After the crucifixion of our Lord, the apostles fled into hiding in fear of persecution, feeling lost of the one who they believed to be their eternal savior. People who hide in such fear especially in groups do not without substantial cause (I specifically refer to a cause) become self assured with confidence and lose all fear of gruesome and horrid torture and death to a point of making public proclamations of the very nature that would bring about such torture and death, especially when there is absolutely no means to defend themselves against it.
Now considering it has been attested to by these very people that they had seen Jesus after he had been raised from the dead, penetrated through locked doors appeared to not only the apostles who where in fact the fearful but hundreds of others who attested to all that was proclaimed and that Jesus Himself gave them the ministry to go forth and proclaim to all nations, what more would it take to assure such fearful men who would then abandon the safety and security of running away and hiding to proclaim that which now was proven to them as true and they could know without doubt that torture and death was not to be feared as the end but to be yet the beginning of eternal life with God through the savior for those who are faithful.
There is nothing whatsoever that would have convinced these men or any people then or now after knowing the torture and death Jesus Himself suffered that would convince them to subject themselves to such an end unless they had experienced His resurrection as they had. This is the nature of fear and of confidence. It is proof in action that serves to verify their proclamations and yes, lets not forget that they did at separate times suffer the torture and death they once hid from and it never deterred the remaining apostles from carrying on the ministry. It takes more than just independent “speculative interpretation” of scripture to understand all involved in it correctly.

 

[Ben_Masada]

What about when they stuck the sword through his body after his death to prove he was dead. And he never even flinched. Come on you are going to have to come up with something better than that. Jesus Christ is and was the Son of God. He is the Messiah. How about the beating he took. Even the Jews admitted to that beating. They beat him so bad that they were afraid he would be dead before he made it to the Cross. And not a bone was broken Just like the OT said. (explain that)

It was not a sword but a spear. And it never happened. To spear-pierce a crucified was not a Roman policy and they would never do to Jesus only. That was invented by the Gospel writer to match Jesus with Zechariah 12:10 as an act of plagiarism. This is one reason why it never happened. The second reason is that neither the Centurion or any of his men would not do that piercing because they had recognized that Jesus was the son of God. A kind of conversion to Jesus’ Cause. (Mat. 27:54). The third reason is that Joseph of Arimathea must have paid good money to the Centurion just to let him take Jesus off the cross and take care of him. About the beating or scourging, it was a Roman policy to do it with everyone to be crucified in order to break down their will to react. (John 19:1)
Therefore, Jesus was not the only one. Josephus says that the Romans crucified thousands of Jews and all of them had to go through that scourging before the cross.

You need to go back and read how they did indeed make sure he was dead. Pilate did indeed make sure Jesus was dead. You must have missed that part. Yeah they are going to put a sword through someones body and they don’t even flinch and they are going to fake being dead. I don’t think so.

Pilate himself didn’t check anything. He sent the Centurion to do that. A Centurion who had converted to the faith that Jesus was the son of God. How could he spear-pierce Jesus’ side? No, it makes no sense. You have to think and not let faith blind your eyes.

What about how the whole earth shook, how about how darkness fell over. I guess thats just a fluke too.

No one can prove such a thing written 50+ years after the fact.

It is plain to see he existed as sure as I do. And I am with him until he takes me home. And you are surely against him. May God forgive you.

He existed and there is no doubt about it. But he was a Jewish man just like any one of us here in Israel. I am glad you are a faithful person. And I hope you will never let faith disappoint you, because faith is too misleading sometimes.

Ben:

 

[rinnie]

Tell Me Ben Do you believe in God?

 

[twb1621]

---

I am a Jewish man with knowledge of Jewish Law, ancient and modern. No woman ever caught in adultery could be executed in that manner. I am sorry but this case brought to Jesus is completely nonsense.

If a woman, after the proper Court procedure was condemned to stoning for having committed adultery, a man in the street could never make the executioners change their mind. And from the time the woman was caught in adultery until she was condemned, it would take a long time, even years.

We have no choice but to admit that the case here is a parable in order to enhance the credibility of Jesus. It only proves that the Gospel writers knew zero of Jewish Laws. Sorry, but that’s the truth.

Ben:

You’re wrong. This was a test by those in political and influencial power and there was “law” unless you abandon Deuteronomy. Courtesy of the Septugent and Latin Vulgate…

John CH 8 - 3 Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle. 4 They said to him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. 5 Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. 2 So what do you say?” 6 They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. 3 7 4 But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he bent down and wrote on the ground.

Book Of Deuteronomy Ch;22 - 22 si dormierit vir cum uxore alterius uterque morientur id est adulter et adultera et auferes malum de Israhel 23 si puellam virginem desponderit vir et invenerit eam aliquis in civitate et concubuerit cum illa 24 educes utrumque ad portam civitatis illius et lapidibus obruentur puella quia non clamavit cum esset in civitate vir quia humiliavit uxorem proximi sui et auferes malum de medio tui.

Translation;
22 If a man lie with another man’s wife, they shall both die, that is to say, the adulterer and the adulteress: and thou shalt take away the evil out of Israel. 23 If a man have espoused a damsel that is a virgin, and some one find her in the city, and lie with her, 24 Thou shalt bring them both out to the gate of that city, and they shall be stoned: the damsel, because she cried not out, being in the city: the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife.

 

[twb1621]

adrift;4699421:

What is Yom Kippur?

A symbolic Jewish tradition to seek for God’s forgiveness for the offenses against one another. But we all know
that there is no forgiveness if we don’t seek forgiveness first from each other.

On the word of a Jew, no, but it clearly says “they” so there was more than one.

And you mean to convince me that all of them caught the woman in the act of copulation? Where, in the middle of the street? How could a married woman do that and still be in her senses? Please, have mercy on yourself!

There is in Scripture that those caught in adultery would be put to death. So where was her partner? They obviously let him go but why? The answer: they weren’t really trying to uphold the law but to trap Jesus.

So, the woman went through Court procedures until the Judge condemned her to be executed and sent a group of Jews to bring her to Jesus to trap him. Jesus wrote some words
on the sand and reversed the decision of the Judge. Don’t you realize how funny you make this to be? Such a thing is not good even to Jesus’ credibility. It would be an insult to Christianity even to believe such a thing.

Ben:

your questioning shows you are unfamilier with Gospel.

 

[Ben_Masada]

After the crucifixion of our Lord, the apostles fled into hiding in fear of persecution, feeling lost of the one who they believed to be their eternal savior. People who hide in such fear especially in groups do not without substantial cause (I specifically refer to a cause) become self assured with confidence and lose all fear of gruesome and horrid torture and death to a point of making public proclamations of the very nature that would bring about such torture and death, especially when there is absolutely no means to defend themselves against it.
Jesus Himself gave them the ministry to go forth and proclaim to all nations, what more would it take to assure such fearful men who would then abandon the safety and security of running away and hiding to proclaim that which now was proven to them as true and they could know without doubt that torture and death was not to be feared as the end but to be yet the beginning of eternal life with God through the savior for those who are faithful.
There is nothing whatsoever that would have convinced these men or any people then or now after knowing the torture and death Jesus Himself suffered that would convince them to subject themselves to such an end unless they had experienced His resurrection as they had. This is the nature of fear and of confidence. It is proof in action that serves to verify their proclamations and yes, lets not forget that they did at separate times suffer the torture and death they once hid from and it never deterred the remaining apostles from carrying on the ministry. It takes more than just independent “speculative interpretation” of scripture to understand all involved in it correctly.​

Listen Twb, do you think Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans? Read Josephus. The Romans crucified thousands of Jews before, during and after Jesus.

There was a Roman policy to arrest and crucify the head of any private group with suspictions of insurrection. At the same time, there was a custom among the First Century Jews for Teachers and Rabbis to gather a group of Twelve around them to study Torah in an ambulant Yeshiva. Many of those Teachers were arrested and crucified by the Romans. They would arrest only the Teachers so that the disciples would disperse.

The disciples of Jesus were not the only ones to run for their lives, afraid to be also crucified but many did. Later, they would organize sects as the disciples of Jesus organized the Sect of the Nazarenes. This happened some time after Jesus said goodbye and was gone, till today no one knows where to, because the disciples were commanded to keep the secret. (Acts 1:2)

And this of being ready to die for one’s religious cause, does not
say anything of substance because we see Muslims dying almost everyday for Islam; and at the time the Aiatolla Homenni in Iran hundreds of Bahai died for their faith and never retracted. Does it say they had the Truth? I didn’t think so. Therefore, you are giving to your faith a very weak basis to be supported by.

Ben:

 

[rinnie]

Ben. Explain this to me. You agree the Jews just did whatever they could and you yourself to discredit Jesus. Why did your own people do this?

Caiphas the High priest that year said Jesus should die for the people rather than the whole nation perish. INTERESTING, VERY INTERESTING WOULD YOU NOT SAY.

Now He was PROPHESYING that Jesus was to die for the nation and not for the nation only but also to gather together into one the scattered children of God.

Now is that not odd, and it does fullfill scripture. Could you explain it to me. Why would your people do this, do you feel this discredited Jesus. Or could you say just more proof?

How could you not say this is proof. Especially when it was done by your people. Can’t blame any believer of Jesus for that one.

 

[Ben_Masada]

There is no parable to question the credibility of Jesus Christ. Just a person and his name is satan. He loves to try to get people to doubt Jesus, Well guess what, he failed then, and he will fail today. Jesus Christ is the Messiah. You missed the boat Ben, and you will never find it at the airport!

---

Well Rinnie, the parable is not to question Jesus’ credibility but to enhance it. You folks are the ones who question his credibility by submitting him to this childish interpretations of the facts of his life.

Now, regarding Satan, do you see what I mean? You say a person
and his name is Satan. Is this a joke or you really believe that Satan is a person? Listen Rinnie, Satan is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Satan as a person is a fabrication of Christianity to play with people’s fears.

I don’t want you to think that I am trying to make you doubt Jesus.
No, that’s not my purpose. I just want you to see Jesus as who he really was, and not how Paul made him to be.

So, “Jesus Christ was the Messiah?” How do you know it, by research or that others have told you? I believe that Israel, the Jewish People is the Messiah because the Prophet Isaiah has told me so. Would you like me to prove it to you?

Ben:

 

[rinnie]

---

Well Rinnie, the parable is not to question Jesus’ credibility but to enhance it. You folks are the ones who question his credibility by submitting him to this childish interpretations of the facts of his life.

Now, regarding Satan, do you see what I mean? You say a person
and his name is Satan. Is this a joke or you really believe that Satan is a person? Listen Rinnie, Satan is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Satan as a person is a fabrication of Christianity to play with people’s fears.

I don’t want you to think that I am trying to make you doubt Jesus.
No, that’s not my purpose. I just want you to see Jesus as who he really was, and not how Paul made him to be.

So, “Jesus Christ was the Messiah?” How do you know it, by research or that others have told you? I believe that Israel, the Jewish People is the Messiah because the Prophet Isaiah has told me so. Would you like me to prove it to you?

Ben:

I think I will stick with Paul rather than you. You can try but anyone that could even doubt that Jesus is the Messiah could NEVER teach me anything.

But got a quick question for you though. Back to the parable you claim that there has to be a trial correct before a person could be stoned to death correct?

 

[Ben_Masada]

I think I will stick with Paul rather than you. You can try but anyone that could even doubt that Jesus is the Messiah could NEVER teach me anything.

But got a quick question for you though. Back to the parable you claim that there has to be a trial correct before a person could be stoned to death correct?

---

Yes Rinnie, correct. And the trial for adultery was so complicated that it would take sometimes even years to adjourn. So, it’s much more logical to take that case as a parable.

Ben:

 

[Joe_5859]

I have not read beyond the first 20 or so posts, but I just wanted to chime in and say that I think speculating is not always a bad thing. The Early Church Fathers did it all the time.

Obviously, Scripture does not tell us exactly what Jesus wrote or why he wrote it. But I think it would be a mistake to assume that it is just some random, extraneous detail of no significance. It would not have been included in Scripture if it was not somehow significant. And I think that trying to answer this question can deepen our understanding of this familiar story.

Looking at the Ignatius Study Bible, it mentions the possibility that Jesus is writing the Pharisees into the ground a la Jeremiah 17:13:

“O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake thee shall be put to shame; those who turn away from thee shall be written in the earth, for they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living water.” [RSV]

I think they stole this from St. Augustine. You can see Augustine say something similar in the Catena Aurea on John 8. The Catena Aurea is Aquinas’ compilation of commentary on the Gospels from the Early Church Fathers. If you read through the section on John 8, you can see them doing exactly what we’re doing here: speculating as to what this means.

 

[rinnie]

---

Yes Rinnie, correct. And the trial for adultery was so complicated that it would take sometimes even years to adjourn. So, it’s much more logical to take that case as a parable.

Ben:

Okay Now no one has denied that this is a Parable. Actually is callled a parable. But here is something I would like you to answer me.

You said That according to Jewish law before someone could be stoned there was to be a trial. Now you claim that this COULD not have happened. Why Not. Becasue you said there had to have been a trial. I do not disagree with you on that. Here is where we differ. You said it could not have happened. Why NOT?

IT says they brought this women to Jesus and asked Jesus to test him to make a decision. Did Jesus make a call. No he did not. Why did he not. 2 reasons. First of all do you not think that JEsus knew according to the law he could not.

Second do you not think Jesus knew they were trying to trick him to make that call.

He never said the women was inocent or guilty. He said let the one among you who is guiltless throw the first stone.
Then Jesus said where are they, Has no one condemmed you, Neither do I. Go and sin no more.

Now why could this not: have happened to try to get him to break the law?

Because you are saying they could have never tried to trick Jesus. Again I disagree. Now you show me how this could not have possibly happened.

For the record I was taught Jesus never wrote anything in the sand, and was only doing it to save her embarrasment. BUt its your definition I have a problem with. Your turn

 

[twb1621]

twb1621;4702362:

After the crucifixion of our Lord, the apostles fled into hiding in fear of persecution, feeling lost of the one who they believed to be their eternal savior. People who hide in such fear especially in groups do not without substantial cause (I specifically refer to a cause) become self assured with confidence and lose all fear of gruesome and horrid torture and death to a point of making public proclamations of the very nature that would bring about such torture and death, especially when there is absolutely no means to defend themselves against it.
Jesus Himself gave them the ministry to go forth and proclaim to all nations, what more would it take to assure such fearful men who would then abandon the safety and security of running away and hiding to proclaim that which now was proven to them as true and they could know without doubt that torture and death was not to be feared as the end but to be yet the beginning of eternal life with God through the savior for those who are faithful.
There is nothing whatsoever that would have convinced these men or any people then or now after knowing the torture and death Jesus Himself suffered that would convince them to subject themselves to such an end unless they had experienced His resurrection as they had. This is the nature of fear and of confidence. It is proof in action that serves to verify their proclamations and yes, lets not forget that they did at separate times suffer the torture and death they once hid from and it never deterred the remaining apostles from carrying on the ministry. It takes more than just independent “speculative interpretation” of scripture to understand all involved in it correctly.​

Listen Twb, do you think Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans? Read Josephus. The Romans crucified thousands of Jews before, during and after Jesus.

There was a Roman policy to arrest and crucify the head of any private group with suspictions of insurrection. At the same time, there was a custom among the First Century Jews for Teachers and Rabbis to gather a group of Twelve around them to study Torah in an ambulant Yeshiva. Many of those Teachers were arrested and crucified by the Romans. They would arrest only the Teachers so that the disciples would disperse.

The disciples of Jesus were not the only ones to run for their lives, afraid to be also crucified but many did. Later, they would organize sects as the disciples of Jesus organized the Sect of the Nazarenes. This happened some time after Jesus said goodbye and was gone, till today no one knows where to, because the disciples were commanded to keep the secret. (Acts 1:2)

And this of being ready to die for one’s religious cause, does not
say anything of substance because we see Muslims dying almost everyday for Islam; and at the time the Aiatolla Homenni in Iran hundreds of Bahai died for their faith and never retracted. Does it say they had the Truth? I didn’t think so. Therefore, you are giving to your faith a very weak basis to be supported by.

Ben:

Hi Ben, Do I detect a bruised ego? None of what you say has anything to do with the disproving the principles of humanity I offered. You were proven wrong in that you attested to there never having been a law of stoning in the history of Jewish law and if you claim to be a jew and don’t know your heritage well enough you certainly have no credibility with Christianity. Aside from all of your comparisions, one you failed to bring up was all those who rose from the dead. None of these other victims of crucifixion returned from the dead and by the way, many Christians who were not teachers were tortured and killed by the hundreds by all different methods so don’t even think your defense stands up to History let along Christianity. Finally, not one credible archeological find that provided historic verification to the existence of Christianity from its origin has ever disproved any of the teachings of Jesus or His Church. That includes the most recent finds in Jordan within the last year. SO again, why not offer credible support for your claims.

 

[kimmielittle]

Ok Ben, I myself have seen enough of your posts to recognize you find this as a form of entertainment but have absolutely no credible support for any of the statements you make against Christianity. Now to use a phrase you have used frequently, let me teach you something regarding humanity that is of our nature and can not be denied, true today as was true during the days of Christ’s ministry. After the crucifixion of our Lord, the apostles fled into hiding in fear of persecution, feeling lost of the one who they believed to be their eternal savior. People who hide in such fear especially in groups do not without substantial cause (I specifically refer to a cause) become self assured with confidence and lose all fear of gruesome and horrid torture and death to a point of making public proclamations of the very nature that would bring about such torture and death, especially when there is absolutely no means to defend themselves against it.
Now considering it has been attested to by these very people that they had seen Jesus after he had been raised from the dead, penetrated through locked doors appeared to not only the apostles who where in fact the fearful but hundreds of others who attested to all that was proclaimed and that Jesus Himself gave them the ministry to go forth and proclaim to all nations, what more would it take to assure such fearful men who would then abandon the safety and security of running away and hiding to proclaim that which now was proven to them as true and they could know without doubt that torture and death was not to be feared as the end but to be yet the beginning of eternal life with God through the savior for those who are faithful.
There is nothing whatsoever that would have convinced these men or any people then or now after knowing the torture and death Jesus Himself suffered that would convince them to subject themselves to such an end unless they had experienced His resurrection as they had. This is the nature of fear and of confidence. It is proof in action that serves to verify their proclamations and yes, lets not forget that they did at separate times suffer the torture and death they once hid from and it never deterred the remaining apostles from carrying on the ministry. It takes more than just independent “speculative interpretation” of scripture to understand all involved in it correctly.

Based on human nature aspects alone

 

[kimmielittle]

Ben. Explain this to me. You agree the Jews just did whatever they could and you yourself to discredit Jesus. Why did your own people do this?

Caiphas the High priest that year said Jesus should die for the people rather than the whole nation perish. INTERESTING, VERY INTERESTING WOULD YOU NOT SAY.

Now He was PROPHESYING that Jesus was to die for the nation and not for the nation only but also to gather together into one the scattered children of God.

Now is that not odd, and it does fullfill scripture. Could you explain it to me. Why would your people do this, do you feel this discredited Jesus. Or could you say just more proof?

How could you not say this is proof. Especially when it was done by your people. Can’t blame any believer of Jesus for that one.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Regarding the story of the adulteress who is about to get stoned?

Before Jesus made his famous, “Let he who is without sin cast the first Stone” statement, he wrote in the sand.

I have heard, or read, that Theologians speculate that Jesus was writing in the sand the sins of those with stones in their hands, and those that were trying to trip him up with this question.

I find this plausable. But what else does Jesus’s writing in the sand signify?
Could it be as simple as That THEIR sins were as numerous as grains of sand?..or
Does this point to some ancient custom? or Did one of the Patriarchs write something in the sand?
In the OT God wrote to Moses on Stone, which was the Law, and put in the ark of the old Covenant. In the NT Jesus’s Only writing is in sand and there’s ONLY speculation as to what is written? This HAS to signify Something???
God does everything for a reason.

I think Jesus wrote this: “I wish people would stop asking so many questions”

 

[kimmielittle]

---

I am a Jewish man with knowledge of Jewish Law, ancient and modern. No woman ever caught in adultery could be executed in that manner. I am sorry but this case brought to Jesus is completely nonsense.

If a woman, after the proper Court procedure was condemned to stoning for having committed adultery, a man in the street could never make the executioners change their mind. And from the time the woman was caught in adultery until she was condemned, it would take a long time, even years.

We have no choice but to admit that the case here is a parable in order to enhance the credibility of Jesus. It only proves that the Gospel writers knew zero of Jewish Laws. Sorry, but that’s the truth.

Ben:

Hiyas Ben
" I am a Jewish man with knowledge of Jewish Law, ancient and modern."]…

Then you would know the difference between speculation and fact.

You can not make speculation, thoughts, conjectures - fact… without proof,

You can not ‘prove’ insert ] your speculations - without disproving what is accepted…as being false. In all of your posts you fail to do this.

The burden of proof - logic…STILL remains in your court…not ours.

Using your basis of speculation, alone…
I might as well be trying to sell… say, The Kennedy’s where assassinated by Harry Potter.

It is a FACT… I wasn’t there. ( I wasn’t even here ). my burden becomes harder as I’m not a witness ]
It is a FACT…I need proof to discredit…history/testimony.
It is a FACT…I need to prove Harry Potter is more than fiction.
It is a FACT…I have to place ALL parties in the same time and place.

You are presenting your subjective according your mindset ] , . theory… only.
In short it takes more than a shadow of doubt…new OR old law…to be accepted as fact

 

[adrift]

twb1621;4702345:

your questioning shows you are unfamilier with Gospel.

This statement shows that you did not read the thread.

 

[kimmielittle]

twb1621;4702489:

This statement shows that you did not read the thread.

Hiyas Adrift

I think, TWB was referencing our friend Ben’s answer to you. Not your post…it came out looking like TWB was referencing you. This is just IMHO , of course.

 

[NotWorthy]

Is there any reason we’ve let Ben hi-jack this thread?