What do you think scripture says about Mary?

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YuRa:
Church Militant-

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Mary was saved by the same sacrifice of Christ that we were

I just want to know what was she saved from? Hell? Why did she need to be saved if she never sinned?

I do believe Mary is saved; just do not believe that she never sinned.
This question still stands…

Why did Mary need to get saved if she was sinless and did not need a savior?
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Did or did not St. John refer to Jesus as “lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world” (In the book of Revelation). Then that means that the sacrifice of christ is timeless and therefore is the source of salvation of all the faithful Jews in the OT up to and including the Blessed Virgin. Who are we to question the manner and time in which god chooses to apply that sacrifice?

Mary was saved from original sin, since as you rightly point out it is enough to send one to hell. The fact that she was called “full of grace” by no less than the angel Gabriel means that special grace was given her and that she cooperated with it to live a sinless life. Now SURELY you’re not gonna sit there and try to tell me that such is not possible, because if you do then you proclaim that God’s grace is not sufficient enough to help us live a sinless life (as we know we’re ALL called to). Did it occur to you that living in the constant presence of Jesus all her life would affect the way one lived? I don’t need a Bible verse to see that, and you don’t believe it either because you and I agree that the presence of Jesus in our lives is what makes us live the better lives we do. As we cooperate with the grace of God we live better and better lives. We sin when we fail to cooperate with that grace…right?! So…this is not rocket science or “theological mystery”.

You needn’t try to mock our beliefs…especially since you don’t really know or understand them (and don’t seem to be listening when we answer…)

Pax vobiscum
 
Alright, seems that I might have misunderstood quite a bit, and I am sorry if I caused some head aches. So to clear things up please answer a few questions.

Do you believe Mary ever committed a sin? Weather it is original or personal?

If she did commit any sin, then she needed a Savior, and whether Christ’s righteousness was imputed on her before of after she gave birth to Christ would be irrelevant at least to me.

Why? That is because if the Holy Spirit can be inside of us when we commit sin they Christ could be inside of Mary if she commits sin, and the Holy Spirit is in all believers and we all do fall.
 
I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.
 
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YuRa:
I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.
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Like, man–what do you expect on a Catholic site when you bring up something like Mary?
We’ve been honoring her for 2000 years, and coming up with good arguments against Protestants for 500, and we’re supposed to just drop our heretical beliefs in one day?
Even Luther never stopped believing any of this. (except the praying to her part)
 
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YuRa:
I see that it is no use arguing with the common day Catholic. You rely on your own righteousness to get you into Heaven. You believe your deeds surpass the deeds credited to you when you receive Christ’s righteousness by faith. Paul calls it a false gospel that isn’t a gospel at all. That was his whole letter to the Eph.

I know now my blunt statement will get deleted as well as my account, but the word of God will never see decay! It is clear faith alone saves without any effort of man, everything else derives from faith including works. I hope God will bless you and you will except the gospel and also have a place in eternity. Until then you are damned to the eternal flames of Hell.

Sola gratia, sola Christo, sola fide, and sola Scriptura equals Soli Deo Gloria!

By grace alone through Christ alone by faith alone, and also Scripture alone as authority will equal all the Glory to Him alone! God fulfils His purpose for the vessels of mercy and the vessels of destruction without fail. May you be a vessel of mercy and except His sacrifice on the cross and through faith alone be saved.

God bless you all.
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This farewell speech was so far left on three threads:rolleyes: So much drama. I guess the poster thought we would be converted,well I guess he was wrong:p God Bless
 
Actually, he posted it on 13 different threads. Think we’ll ever see him again? Under this user name?

Has he lurked here previously under another name?

I often wonder if some of the beligerant ones are simply the same person under new cover or if we might have some seekers of new understanding of the Catholic position.

I keep praying that someone might be surprised to learn where we are coming from and realize it isn’t as wrong as they had previously been led to believe.

At least they didn’t come here and find us easy pickin’s. That at least is something, that they’re finally meeting Catholics who know and love the faith. A refreshing change, I’m certain.

🙂

God Bless to all you defenders of the faith,

CARose
 
Okay…
Yes you misunderstand a lot. Remember the forum rules from now on. This is not a hunting ground for non-Catholic evangelism.

Do you believe Mary ever committed a sin? No. She led a sinless Christian life. Y’know, the kind we’re ALL called to live?
Whether it is original or personal? You inherit original sin from Adam & Eve. Personal (or “actual” sin as we call it, because it’s sin that we actually commit) sins? Not the Blessed Virgin.

You do not understand original sin. Read this whole document to have a better idea newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

If she did commit any sin, then she needed a Savior, and whether Christ’s righteousness was imputed on her before of after she gave birth to Christ would be irrelevant at least to me.

All mankind needs a savior because of original sin and all the other actual sins that they commit later on. However, Mary’s graces were such that she received those graces at her conception, so thather redemption was more perfect and she was preserved from the stain of original sin. It’s not so weird…think about it, Adam and Eve were sinless in the same way prior to the fall. Mary’s whole life was one of the greatest cooperation with God’s grace and the will of God. Why would she sin? Face it…she of ALL people knew exactly who her son was and believed in Him all the way I personally believe that so little is said about her in the NT because what IS said about her is so overwhelmingly powerful. Any decent and careful study of these passages will bring that out instead of just glossing 'em over “because the catholics make so much of them.” That’s biased study and will always lead a mistaken interpretation taken out of context.

See my last post above on the Immaculate Conception: The doctrine that Mary was conceived wihout the stain of original sin. Her sinless conception by her parents was accomplished by the grace of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. (See my post above for a brief explanation.) These tracts will explain better than I can. They cover both what we teach and why on these topics.
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp

Why? That is because if the Holy Spirit can be inside of us when we commit sin they Christ could be inside of Mary if she commits sin, and the Holy Spirit is in all believers and we all do fall.

So you’re gonna tell me that God’s superabundant grace is not enough to keep us from sin? And that He wouldn’t insure the holiness of the one woman He chose to be the mother of His Son made flesh? You seem to forget the very words of thr archangel Gabriel when he announced to Mary that God wanted her to be the mother of His son…and she said yes. Luke 1: 37 " …for nothing will be impossible for God." Everybody seems to forget this all encompassing truth so simply stated by the very angelic spokesman of Almighty God. That Mary set us te very best example of the Christain walk beginning with her initial fiat (yes) to the will of God at the Annunciation through all the sorrows that she suffered because her beloved son suffered. Remember the prophesy of St. Simeon in the temple at the presentation of Jesus in the temple? Luke 2:35 “and you yourself a sword will pierce…”.

So this is “the short course” as they say. I pray that you see the truths we are talkin’ about. Whether you join us or not…at least try to understand.

Pax vobiscum
 
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YuRa:
Obviously but why then did Mary need to be saved! If she never sinned! Why did she need the sacrifice of Christ? Wow how clear is it, she need to be saved; therefore she needed something to be saved from. Meaning she had to have sinned!
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Please read post # 53. Your question was already answered before you insisted on asking it again.
 
Tradition blinding Scripture. Someday all will kneel before Christ in His full glory. Mary was but a simple tool in Gods plan to bring the Savior into human form. Ignorance and tradition lead to a different conclusion. Vessels of common use can not be transformed into vessels of mercy.

I would like to ask an administrator to delete my account as well as all I have posted. I said a lot of it out of anger and I should not have done that. Please forgive me all of you and I hope someday you will understand that the glory is all His. The credit is all to Him, who did everything for us so we can never boast for eternity. Soli Deo Gloria!
 
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YuRa:
Tradition blinding Scripture. Someday all will kneel before Christ in His full glory. Mary was but a simple tool in Gods plan to bring the Savior into human form. Ignorance and tradition lead to a different conclusion. Vessels of common use can not be transformed into vessels of mercy.

I would like to ask an administrator to delete my account as well as all I have posted. I said a lot of it out of anger and I should not have done that. Please forgive me all of you and I hope someday you will understand that the glory is all His. The credit is all to Him, who did everything for us so we can never boast for eternity. Soli Deo Gloria!
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We understand the Glory is all his and apology accepted.We give Glory to God about the gifts he has given as well and I hope you stay around,to learn what we believe and why we believe it.We believe All Glory is due to God and God alone and I just ask you to read the posts with an unbiased heart and read them as they are written.God Bless and I hope you don’t leave despite your outburst all of us have bad days.God Bless
 
No my brother, you apparently do not understand original sin. Original sin is imputed on all men, like Christ righteousness on all believers. Meaning Mary committing original sin meant that she is guilty of breaking the whole law. Meaning she needed a Savior who would impute His righteousness on her. The only way Christ’s righteousness can be imputed on a human being is through faith. You can not faith as a child (do not bring up the kids that Christ talks about in His ministry it would be totally out of context. ) Your argument fails at the most crucial stop.

Mary was a mere woman used as an instrument to bring the Savior into the world. That’s why the Bible talks so little of her, because she is irrelevant in the process of which a man is saved. Catholics have just been taught this since they were infants so they agree with it even when the Scriptures go against it.
 
I will come back, once I study what Catholics really believe. But for now I want everything I wrote to be deleted because I said some harsh things. It was not right of me to judge. Forgive me all of you. God bless you all. I will be back.
 
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YuRa:
Pax

They were all humans like me and you and all sinned. God used them as instruments to show His glory and any other purpose He had for them.]
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Thanks, but everyone knows this and your statement offers no refutation whatsoever.
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YuRa:
lol I find this so interesting: So before Mary was a believer she was not an evil doer? Like the one described in Rom 3:23 an Ps? You just destroyed your own side of the argument. ]
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You obviously do not understand or appreciate the line of argument as presented. Sorry, but nothing has been destroyed by me or you in terms of the Catholic position.
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YuRa:
But Pax why was Noah righteous? Because he had faith, just like Abraham in Rom 4. Because of faith he was credited righteousness. So are you saying Mary had faith her whole life? Obviously she was righteous but after she had faith.]
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Of course Noah had faith. But Noah also lived a righteous life. Scripture tells us in several places that the righteous live righteously. A typical example of this in found in Revelation 22:11 where it says, " Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy." You can also refer to Romans 8: 12-14 where we read, “So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” I can point you to numerous other verses as well, but are you really interested?

So what about Mary and whether she had faith her whole life? Well try this. When the angel appears to Mary and says, “Hail Mary full of grace” in Luke Chapter 1, he isn’t suggesting that she just got holy at that very moment. The Greek term used here is Kecharitomene and it is a past perfect participle that imparts a title to the person of Mary. Charis is the word for grace or God’s favor. The particular use of this participle means that this is an action that is accomplished in the past in a perfect and full sense and continues at that moment. Mary was perhaps fifteen years old at the time of the angel’s visit. The angel speaks to Mary in this way even though the angel is a member of the heavenly host and is himself without sin. Start connecting the dots here. God’s greatest created creature is the mother of Jesus.
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YuRa:
Yes again they were righteous because they believed. Not because they obtained righteous by there works.
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Yes, they did believe and that is very important, but they also walked blamelessly before God. Why is it that you find it necessary to ignore that part of the scriptures? And why is it that you refuse to acknowledge the power of God’s grace in there daily living?
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YuRa:
Your argument is weak, and traditionally based not biblically.
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I don’t believe these arguments to be weak. Moreover, nothing you have said has proven them to be weak or unbiblical. Nice try!
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YuRa:
This is just amusing, so Elizabeth was a believer, and she is privileged to be with the woman that will give birth to Christ. So that means Mary is sinless? lol and that’s your argument why Mary was sinless.
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Scripture says that Elizabeth and Zachariah among others were blameless before God. That means they were sinless and walking righteously before the Lord. Now please consider the humility of the blameless[sinless] Elizabeth when Mary comes to her home. Once again connect the dots. I am not making anything up, I am merely quoted the scriptures which are quite clear on this matter. I see little reason for you to vainly LOL. You should be more circumspect and try taking these scriptural connections to heart.
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YuRa:
Yes it does all have original sin on them read Romans more carefully and do not pass tradition as Scripture.
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I’m not sure what you are trying to do here, but I used scripture only and once again you have provided no refutation to the precise sense of what I posted.
 
cont. from prior post.
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YuRa:
All I see is how you glorify Mary, but all glory is to God. Mary did nothing to deserve glory, God chose her, God was born through her, and God then saved her.
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Your last quote says that we glorify Mary. This is nonsense. God exalted Mary as he did all of the other great individuals that He lifted up for His purposes. To understand that it is God that exalts, you might try the following:

1 Sam 2:7
The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low, he also exalts.

1 Sam 2:10
The Lord will judge the ends of the earth; he will give strength to his king, and exalt the power of his anointed.

2 Sam 22:49-51
who brought me out from my enemies; thou didst exalt me above my adversaries, thou didst deliver me from men of violence. “For this I will extol thee, O Lord, among the nations, and sing praises to thy name. Great triumphs he gives to his king, and shows steadfast love to his anointed, to David, and his descendants forever.”

Matt 22:10
whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Luke 1:52 (Mary’s Magnificat)
he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;

Luke 1:48-52
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation. He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;

2 Cor 11:7
Did I commit a sin in abasing myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel without cost to you?

James 1:7-10
For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord. Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, and the rich in his humiliation, because like the flower of the grass he will pass away.

James 4:10
Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.

1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that in due time he may exalt you.
 
cont. from prior post:

The last quote from you in my prior post indicates that you think we glorify and exalt Mary. It is God that exalts and lifts up His creatures for his purposes. Try the following verses to see where this is so:

1 Sam 2:7
The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low, he also exalts.

1 Sam 2:10
The Lord will judge the ends of the earth; he will give strength to his king, and exalt the power of his anointed.

2 Sam 22:49-51
who brought me out from my enemies; thou didst exalt me above my adversaries, thou didst deliver me from men of violence. “For this I will extol thee, O Lord, among the nations, and sing praises to thy name. Great triumphs he gives to his king, and shows steadfast love to his anointed, to David, and his descendants forever.”

Matt 22:10
whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Luke 1:52 (Mary’s Magnificat)
he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;

Luke 1:48-52
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation. He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;

2 Cor 11:7
Did I commit a sin in abasing myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel without cost to you?

James 1:7-10
For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord. Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, and the rich in his humiliation, because like the flower of the grass he will pass away.

James 4:10
Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.

1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that in due time he may exalt you.
 
Pax-

I want all my posts deleted, and then you start posting against what I have said and it brings me back.

Yes, they did believe and that is very important, but they also walked blamelessly before God.

They walked blameless because they had the righteousness of Christ not there own. How many times do I have to say that. The only reason anyone is righteous is because they have the imputed righteousness of Christ. No mans righteousness is perfect, we have all sinned. All the righteous men talked about in the Bible are righteous on the account of Christ. So when we are before God at the gates of Heaven, God will not see our righteousness which is fitly but Christ’s. A mans own righteousness can only condemn him to hell.

So what about Mary and whether she had faith her whole life? Well try this. When the angel appears to Mary and says, “Hail Mary full of grace” in Luke Chapter 1, he isn’t suggesting that she just got holy at that very moment. The Greek term used here is Kecharitomene and it is a past perfect participle that imparts a title to the person of Mary. Charis is the word for grace or God’s favor. The particular use of this participle means that this is an action that is accomplished in the past in a perfect and full sense and continues at that moment. Mary was perhaps fifteen years old at the time of the angel’s visit. The angel speaks to Mary in this way even though the angel is a member of the heavenly host and is himself without sin. Start connecting the dots here.

Connect the dots huh? A title like “hello Mary who is full of Gods free gift (Christ, Christ’s righteousness, faith = all gifts of gods grace.) Does not mean she was sinless, what it means is that she sinned and had Christ’s righteousness that’s why she was blameless. Apparently your position is she never committed original sin and doesn’t need Christ’s sacrifice to atone for her sins.

I don’t believe these arguments to be weak. Moreover, nothing you have said has proven them to be weak or unbiblical. Nice try!

The argument is weak, you believe Mary never sinned because of a Title an angle gave her. How many times in history has an angle appeared to a woman and said that she would bear the savior? Not many actually once. He greeted her with a great title, signifying she will bear the Savior. Mary was a human, she was righteous the same way we all are righteous. Through faith in Christ’s sacrifice, meaning she was a sinner from the beginning because she needed His righteousness because hers was fitly like rags.

Scripture says that Elizabeth and Zachariah among others were blameless before God.

Again they were blameless because they had Christ’s righteousness not mans.

As far as Elizibeth… if I believe in Christ my savior then I have His righteousness and I am blameless before the Lord. So then if I come up to you and am privileged to see you and be in your presents then I bless you. ← this all means you never committed a single sin? Seems a little flakey.
 
Again I ask now even beg you. Please delete all I have posted, because I said a lot out of anger and misunderstanding of you position.
 
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YuRa:
Pax-

I want all my posts deleted, and then you start posting against what I have said and it brings me back.

Yes, they did believe and that is very important, but they also walked blamelessly before God.

They walked blameless because they had the righteousness of Christ not there own. How many times do I have to say that. The only reason anyone is righteous is because they have the imputed righteousness of Christ. No mans righteousness is perfect, we have all sinned. All the righteous men talked about in the Bible are righteous on the account of Christ. So when we are before God at the gates of Heaven, God will not see our righteousness which is fitly but Christ’s. A mans own righteousness can only condemn him to hell.

So what about Mary and whether she had faith her whole life? Well try this. When the angel appears to Mary and says, “Hail Mary full of grace” in Luke Chapter 1, he isn’t suggesting that she just got holy at that very moment. The Greek term used here is Kecharitomene and it is a past perfect participle that imparts a title to the person of Mary. Charis is the word for grace or God’s favor. The particular use of this participle means that this is an action that is accomplished in the past in a perfect and full sense and continues at that moment. Mary was perhaps fifteen years old at the time of the angel’s visit. The angel speaks to Mary in this way even though the angel is a member of the heavenly host and is himself without sin. Start connecting the dots here.

Connect the dots huh? A title like “hello Mary who is full of Gods free gift (Christ, Christ’s righteousness, faith = all gifts of gods grace.) Does not mean she was sinless, what it means is that she sinned and had Christ’s righteousness that’s why she was blameless. Apparently your position is she never committed original sin and doesn’t need Christ’s sacrifice to atone for her sins.

I don’t believe these arguments to be weak. Moreover, nothing you have said has proven them to be weak or unbiblical. Nice try!

The argument is weak, you believe Mary never sinned because of a Title an angle gave her. How many times in history has an angle appeared to a woman and said that she would bear the savior? Not many actually once. He greeted her with a great title, signifying she will bear the Savior. Mary was a human, she was righteous the same way we all are righteous. Through faith in Christ’s sacrifice, meaning she was a sinner from the beginning because she needed His righteousness because hers was fitly like rags.

Scripture says that Elizabeth and Zachariah among others were blameless before God.

Again they were blameless because they had Christ’s righteousness not mans.

As far as Elizibeth… if I believe in Christ my savior then I have His righteousness and I am blameless before the Lord. So then if I come up to you and am privileged to see you and be in your presents then I bless you. ← this all means you never committed a single sin? Seems a little flakey.
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Nobody said Mary was without sin of her own accord God is the only one who can make her so.God Bless and we accept your apology.
 
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