What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[moondweller]

Yes, but what of those converts who much later in life lose/renounce their belief ?

Destroys your OSAS ideas.

Can you say, “power of God for salvation TO everyone who believes?”

Paul’s not talking “converts” to a religion or a religious system here. But those who believe what God has DONE. Get it? Men go in and out of religious systems. But God has the power through the cross of Christ to save everyone who believes what He has DONE through the Son.

 

[BRB1]

Can you say, “power of God for salvation TO everyone who believes?”

Paul’s not talking “converts” to a religion or a religious system here. But those who believe what God has DONE. Get it? Men go in and out of religious systems. But God has the power through the cross of Christ to save everyone who believes what He has DONE through the Son.

I’m talking converts to Christ & his Gospel message. Look at Judas for example. He at first believed … then became an apostate.

 

[moondweller]

I’m talking converts to Christ & his Gospel message. Look at Judas for example. He at first believed … then became an apostate.

 

[BRB1]

What a Protestant does when Sola Scriptura fails them…

 

[SHW]

The inserted word “initial” prohibits the Catholic from ever resting on the all-glorious work of God’s Son for him at the cross - which rest amounts to FAITH through which BY GRACE God saves, giftwise (Gr. dorean, without-a-cause), i.e., “not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9)

Hi MD,

Faith is paramount but works also justify. Both faith and works are necessary in order to inherit eternal life. You do not seem to want to look at Scriptures which state this fact.

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

All Scriptures pertaining to Salvation and also pertaining to inheriting eternal life are true. Add all of them together in order to get the full Truth. Since you rely on Scripture alone, you are having a difficult time understanding the “whole” Truth. You pick and choose the Scriptures which seem to back up your own “private” interpretation. But, these epistles were written as supplements to oral teaching. They were never meant to replace it. Not everything needed for Salvation is written in every single epistle so it is very difficult to figure out on one’s own the complete picture of Salvation and what is necessary to do in order to inherit eternal life.

Find all of the verses which pertain to Salvation in all of the gospels and in all of the epistles and then add them together in order to get a clearer picture of Salvation. All of them are true and they have to fit together in a complementary manner in order to show Truth. Since some verses state that works justify us, then you need to figure out how this can be since it “seems” like other verses state otherwise.

The only way that all of these Scriptures about Salvation all fit together to show one truth is: FIRST, Jesus redeems us and justifies us, and THEN we maintain our justification by fulfilling the Father’s Will for us. If we do not fulfill His Will for us which is to fear Him and to obey His commandments and to produce good fruits, then we will not inherit eternal life. There is no other way that all of the Scriptures pertaining to both Salvation and to inheriting eternal life can be true except for this one scenario that Catholics believe: “Faith and works are both needed in order to inherit eternal life.” We can be redeemed and justified but still not inherit eternal life. This is a fact. We can deny the faith after our baptisms and its profession of faith and then not inherit eternal life as a consequence of our actions.

1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

Matthew 18:34-35 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 ““So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Jesus redeemed everyone (1 Timothy 2:6) but in order to take advantage of His free gift of grace, we must believe in Him and receive baptism. This is a command from Him. (Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 10:48)

Believing is the first step. Then the person is commanded to be baptized in order to receive this promised redemption and justification (cleansing of sins from the soul) Acts 22:16, 1 Corinthians 6:11. Obedience to Jesus’ gospel must follow baptism in order for a person to continue to be justified and inherit eternal life after his death.

You keep referring to Ephesians 2:8-9 while neglecting to acknowledge that once we are saved by faith, that according to the very next verse Ephesians 2:10, there is more to be done before we can actually inherit eternal life. These epistles were originally written as one long letter. There were no chapter and no verse nor grammar notations in these original manuscripts. Read the whole letter all at once and you will see more clearly what Paul was trying to say.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

We must do the work that God has prepared for us to do (we must do His Will) in order to inherit eternal life.

This is why Jesus states in Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

Matthew 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Scripture states that after our redemption that we have hope of eternal life. It does not state that we have a guarantee of eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13-14 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

The Holy Spirit who is living within us as a result of our baptisms and our confirmations is the guarantee of our inheritance. If He is not living in us (abiding in us) at our deaths, then we do not inherit eternal life. He is our only guarantee of inheriting eternal life by His very presence within our souls at our deaths. He is abiding in us and we are abiding in Him. We must maintain a state of grace in our souls until we die in order to inherit the promise of eternal life. That is why it is only a “hope” for eternal life instead of a done deal.

Titus 3:7 “that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Hope is for things that we do not already have. If we already had salvation guaranteed then there would be no need for hope. Scripture states that we have hope of eternal life, not guarantee of eternal life.

First Jesus must redeem us and justify us through baptism before we can have hope of eternal life. We must then “stand in this grace” (remain in this grace) given to us at our baptisms until we die if we want to inherit eternal life. The Holy Spirit must be still residing in our souls (abiding in us) at our deaths in order for us to actually inherit eternal life (receive the promise).

Romans 5:1-4 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.”

If we do not persevere in our standing in grace but instead defile our temples with sin, then the Holy Spirit leaves our souls, and if we do not repent before death, then we no longer have Him abiding in us at our deaths, and so we are then cast into hell.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

Inheriting eternal life is not guaranteed by our redemption and initial justification. We must persevere standing in grace until our deaths in order to inherit eternal life. We must be approved for eternal life.

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

If we do not keep His commandments and produce good fruits, then we do not love Him and we will not inherit eternal life. (John 14:21, 1 John 5:3, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 2:3-4, Revelation 14:12) He only saves those who actually love Him.

Pax,
SHW

 

[BRB1]

Hope is for things that we do not already have. If we already had salvation guaranteed then there would be no need for hope. Scripture states that we have hope of eternal life, not guarantee of eternal life.

If we do not persevere in our standing in grace but instead defile our temples with sin, then the Holy Spirit leaves our souls, and if we do not repent before death, then we no longer have Him abiding in us at our deaths, and so we are then cast into hell.

You make good points for MD to consider. Paul teaches salvation assurance … if one is filled with H.S., confessed of all mortal sins, and a disciple of Christ. Thus, we can take comfort in our present state of grace … and be confident of our ‘present’ state.

Its the future that Paul speaks of as our ‘hope’ of final salvation. None of us knows our future. Paul gives us much scripture to demonstrate those who once had a saving faith …yet later fell from grace. MD may feel confident of his present … but, he can’t predict if he might yet fall prey to satan’s temptations … and forfeit his hope to remain in Christ. If he fails to confess a single mortal sin, or becomes puffed with pride … he shouldn’t sleep/rest so easily.

 

[SHW]

Faith is simply the acceptance for one’s self the testimony God has given concerning His Son as true. Such faith is not “trusting” or “expecting God to do something,” but rather a daily “walk by faith” (2 Cor. 5:7) in His testimony concerning the Person of Christ and His “finished” work on the cross for us (1 Jn. 5:9-13).

After saving faith the life of trust begins. A spiritual man understands this.

But true salvation faith sees that what God says has been DONE; and a true man of faith BELIEVES God’s Word having the inward conviction that is it true, and true for himself.

For this reason Paul says at the beginning of his letter to the believers at Rome:

Rom 1:17 "But the righteous shall live by faith."

Not trusting that God might do something, but believing that He HAS, once for all, in the Person and work of His beloved Son.

Hi MD,

2 Cor. 5:7 “For we walk by faith, not by sight.”

It is best to add the next verses in order to get a more complete picture:

2 Corinthians 5:8-11 “We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.”

Faith is obedience to Jesus’ gospel. Paul warns that we will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ and we will give an accounting for our works. Those persons whose works are not pleasing to God will be cast into hell:

Matthew 7:22-24 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:”

John 5:28-30 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

We are judged by our works on Judgment Day as proof of our faith.

1 Jn. 5:9-13 “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which[a] He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
James 1:23-26 “For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25** But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues** in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless.”

If you do not continue to believe (obey the gospel), then you will no longer be saved.

Rom 1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.”

Add the next verses:

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

They knew Him yet they denied Him by their works. They worshiped idols instead of Him. This is why they were not saved. They did evil deeds. Faith without good works is dead. Dead faith cannot save.

James 2:20 “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?”

James 2:23-26 "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith without works is useless. We are saved by faith working through love. Both faith and works are necessary in order to justify us so that we can inherit eternal life.

Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.”
**
Both faith and good works are necessary in order for us to inherit eternal life.**

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

What a Protestant does when Sola Scriptura fails them…

I would think it would be just the opposite.

:extrahappy:What the man did when He read the Scriptures and believed God’s testimony concerning His Son and the work of salvation He accomplished, once for all, on the cross on his behalf:

No man on earth can experience a greater joy than when he finally turns completely away from self and believes only in what God has DONE. For only then will he have entered and experienced a saved relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.Ps 70:4 "Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; and let those who love Your salvation say continually, “Let God be magnified.”

 

[BRB1]

I would think it would be just the opposite.

:extrahappy:What the man did when He read the Scriptures and believed God’s testimony concerning His Son and the work of salvation He accomplished, once for all, on the cross on his behalf:

No man on earth can experience a greater joy than when he finally turns completely away from self and believes only in what God has DONE. For only then will he have entered and experienced a saved relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.Ps 70:4 "Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; and let those who love Your salvation say continually, “Let God be magnified.”

MD … you are talking one’s First Love experience of Conversion. No one will argue that isn’t the best wine of the vine. But, once the trials and testing come on you … how will you bear up ? You will need the Church & all her sacraments to weather the storms.

Certainly you realize that your initial justification is just the beginning. Sanctification and the Eucharist will support your desire to make it to the 9th inning. Its not over til your final bell tolls.

 

[fbl9]

Not if you agree with SHW’s post. According to him your future salvation will be determined on works other than Christ’s once for all sacrificial work on the cross. It’s not presumptuous when Catholics insert the word “initial” in front of “salvation” or “justification” or “redemption” or reconciliation" or even “eternal,” as in “initial” eternal life. Pending something else to be done.

The inserted word “initial” prohibits the Catholic from ever resting on the all-glorious work of God’s Son for him at the cross - which rest amounts to FAITH through which BY GRACE God saves, giftwise (Gr. dorean, without-a-cause), i.e., “not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9)

You see, true salvation faith doesn’t lead to a life of works in hopes to be saved. Although faith does lead the believer to a life of trusting God to work in his life, faith isn’t trust. Faith is simply the acceptance for one’s self the testimony God has given concerning His Son as true. Such faith is not “trusting” or “expecting God to do something,” but rather a daily “walk by faith” (2 Cor. 5:7) in His testimony concerning the Person of Christ and His “finished” work on the cross for us (1 Jn. 5:9-13).

After saving faith the life of trust begins. A spiritual man understands this.

Here’s the fundamental difference between “faith” and “trust.” “Trust” is always looking forward to what God will (or might) do. For instance, the Catholic trusting Him to, at the end of his life, judge him worthy of salvation through his works. But true salvation faith sees that what God says has been DONE; and a true man of faith BELIEVES God’s Word having the inward conviction that is it true, and true for himself.

For this reason Paul says at the beginning of his letter to the believers at Rome:Rom 1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous shall live by faith."Not trusting that God might do something, but believing that He HAS, once for all, in the Person and work of His beloved Son.

This is what Paul and his companions meant when they said to the Philippian jailer: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…” Believe that His work is the work of salvation, and His work is DONE. Salvation faith need not “trust” God to do anything else for our salvation, it simply believes what He has DONE.

that’s all fine and dandy but i am not SAFE IN HEAVEN;therfore i am not yet truly saved for i am still capable of sinning and losing salvation.and don’t hand me the pile that a true believer will not sin,for that makes you a liar,cause no one who has the spirit is without sin.Anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar and the true spirit is not within them…
what does it mean to live by faith???living by faith means to obey God ,do His will and follow His word…there are many places in the gospels where Christ says we are to be servants,to be a servant means to serve…who do we serve,our fellow man.because this is whom Christ was sent to serve.How do you serve your fellow man by doing works…a servant who does nothing is a LAZY servant.“to him who knows what he is to do but does not many stripes will he recieve,but he who knows not what to do will recieve few”…sounds like we have something to do.

Who did Christ love? only those who followed Him? NO! He loved even those who crucified Him…“forgive them Father for they know not what they do”

 

[SHW]

by fbl9: Who did Christ love? only those who followed Him? NO! He loved even those who crucified Him…“forgive them Father for they know not what they do”

True. Jesus loves mankind because He loves all His “creation.”

Wisdom 11:24 “For thou lovest all things that exist, and hast loathing for none of the things which thou hast made, for thou wouldst not have made anything if thou hadst hated it.” RSV-CE

He can never hate His creation, but the only persons who inherit eternal life are those who love Him until they die. He has a specific definition of “love.” “Love” means to “obey” or “keep” His commandments:
**
1 John 5:3** “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

2 Timothy 4:7-8 “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive** the crown of life** which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

**In order to love Him, a person must obey Him (keep the faith until death). **

John 14:21-24 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

Jesus only makes His home in the hearts and souls of those who love Him, and these persons who keep His commandments are the only ones who actually love Him.

1 Peter 4:17 “For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?”

What happens to those who do not obey His commandments (His gospel)?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

Those who do not obey His gospel are condemned to flaming fire for eternity. He only saves those who obey (love) Him.

Galatians 6:7-8 “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.”

Hebrews 5:8-9 “though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,”

If we do not obey His gospel (keep His commandments and produce good fruits), then we will not inherit eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

What happens to those who commit sin (lawlessness) and who do not repent before death?

Matthew 7:22-23 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

1 John 3:4 “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

Matthew 13:40-42 “Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 7:20-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

Jesus states what we must do in order to inherit eternal life. We must obey His commandments and do the Will of His Father in order to receive the crown of eternal life.

Paul disciplines himself so that he does not sin and thereby deny the faith:

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 “Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

Philippians 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”

1 Corinthians 11:1 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.”

I suggest we imitate Paul if we desire to inherit eternal life. Be “doers of the word and not hearers only” until death and we will then be approved to inherit eternal life when we die. (James 1:21-25, James 1:12)

Pax,
SHW

 

[sodak]

AGAIN, your interpretation is corrupt.

Well, you get the idea. You can force the Scriptures to say anything you want. That’s called torturing the Scriptures, which is what you’re doing in all of the above. Bottom line you’re preaching salvation by works which is contrary to the written Word of God. You continue to confound grace and works. This is called “Galatianism.”

Funny. We Catholics think that it is you torturing Scriptures to fit your own erroneous beliefs. You continue to set up a strawman which isn’t true.

A spiritual man understands this.

And, of course, this would be you, the rest of us are incapable, right? I’ll stick with St. Paul, working out my salvation in fear and trembling.

What a Protestant does when Sola Scriptura fails them…

Agreed. It must be an uncomfortable feeling to have when your foundation gets pulled out from underneath you.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

Here’s the fundamental difference between “faith” and “trust.” “Trust” is always looking forward to what God will (or might) do. For instance, the Catholic trusting Him to, at the end of his life, judge him worthy of salvation through his works. But true salvation faith sees that what God says has been DONE; and a true man of faith BELIEVES God’s Word having the inward conviction that is it true, and true for himself.

You do NOT speak of your own doctrine, but the doctrine you have been taught. That doctrine which you believe is how you interpret Scripture. You are in fact accepting a doctrine first and then secondly justifying it and proving it from Scripture. Until you can step back, and look objectively at your own doctrine which you have believed completely (not Scripture) you will never understand ANYONE else that quotes Scripture. That means Catholics, Jews, and other Protestants. You are so rigid and certain of the truth of your own DOCTRINE, which you have learned from men, not from Scripture, that you are incapable of seeing your own dependence on their doctrine.

You are able to see how Catholics depend on their own doctrine to interpret the Scriptures, yet you are incapable of seeing how you yourself are equally dependent on the doctrine you have been taught by men, not Scripture. You are deceiving yourself if you actually believe your doctrine is derived from Scripture first. Scripture can be interpreted any number of ways, as this thread PROVES! It is only Church Doctrine that causes one man to interpret one way and another man to interpret another way. If you have any depth of perception, you must see and agree on this.

 

[moondweller]

MD … you are talking one’s First Love experience of Conversion. No one will argue that isn’t the best wine of the vine. But, once the trials and testing come on you … how will you bear up ? You will need the Church & all her sacraments to weather the storms.

Certainly you realize that your initial justification is just the beginning. Sanctification and the Eucharist will support your desire to make it to the 9th inning. Its not over til your final bell tolls.

I’ll repeat what I said in a previous post:"The inserted word “initial” prohibits the Catholic from ever resting on the all-glorious work of God’s Son for him at the cross - which rest amounts to FAITH through which “BY GRACE” God saves, giftwise (Gr. dorean, without-a-cause), i.e., “not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9)

 

[moondweller]

that’s all fine and dandy but i am not SAFE IN HEAVEN;

Eph. 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith…"andRom 5:1-2 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."are not addressed to saints in heaven but we who have believed on earth.

therfore i am not yet truly saved for i am still capable of sinning and losing salvation.

You believe salvation is about not sinning whereas the gospel (good news) is about believing the Word of God that Jesus has put away our sin, once for all, through the sacrifice of Himself.

and don’t hand me the pile that a true believer will not sin,for that makes you a liar,

I never said it.

Who did Christ love? only those who followed Him? NO! He loved even those who crucified Him…“forgive them Father for they know not what they do”

And God answered His prayer, which answer is reflected in the gospel message:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,"Since salvation is the work of God alone the gospel (from the beginning) is a message for one to BELIEVE.

 

[moondweller]

Funny. We Catholics think that it is you torturing Scriptures to fit your own erroneous beliefs. You continue to set up a strawman which isn’t true.

The finished work of Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins is setting up a “strawman?” Tell that to Paul and the other Apostles who received their word straight from Christ. Was Christ crucified nothing but a “scarecrow” story?

And, of course, this would be you, the rest of us are incapable, right? I’ll stick with St. Paul, working out my salvation in fear and trembling.

But Paul never says to work FOR our salvation. His gospel is one of BELIEF: “For by grace you have been saved through FAITH… not as a result of works.”

 

[moondweller]

You do NOT speak of your own doctrine, but the doctrine you have been taught.

Yes, that’s very true. It’s often called “Pauline.”

That doctrine which you believe is how you interpret Scripture.

Yes, my interpretation is consistently “Pauline.” Thank you for observing that.

 

[ryanoneil]

The Apostles were not sent out as proclaimers of the Messianic Kingdom, but to be eyewitnesses of Christ’s bodily resurrection. It was a gospel of salvation not a gospel of a Kingdom which they took to the world and is recorded in the Book of Acts and the Epistles.

You are free to believe whatever you want.

Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them thus, "Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you go, make this proclamation: ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ (Mat 10:5-7)

It is clear Jesus’ instruction is to continue after His ascension.

**But beware of people, for they will hand you over to courts and scourge you in their synagogues, and you will be led before governors and kings for my sake as a witness before them and the pagans. When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say. You will be given at that moment what you are to say. For it will not be you who speak but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. (Mat 10:17-20)

When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Mat 10:23)

Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:28)**

The Epistles were written to the church Christ is presently building. In them the church is identified as the Body and Bride of Christ, not the subjects of His Messianic Kingdom rule. Can you show me in the Epistles where Jesus is called “King of the church?” Instead all believers who make up Christ’s church are a heaven-bound people in which they have a citizenship and from which they eagerly wait for their Savior who will transform the body of their humble state into conformity with the body of His glory (Phil. 3:20-21).

Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords no matter how you spin it, which is why He is sitting on a throne in heaven.

**For this is why Christ died and came to life, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. (Rom 14:9)

for it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” (Rom 14:11)**

In contrast, the predicted Messianic Kingdom over which the risen Christ will return and rule is described in the prophecies that reveal it as very earthly, not heavenly. It is, in fact, the foremost reason Jesus must returns to this earth. It is, in fact, one of the reason for which He was born. Otherwise there would really be no reason for Him to return.The Scriptures speak of only one church Christ is presently building through the Holy Spirit while on His Father’s throne in heaven. And also only one Kingdom which is yet to come and over which Christ, the Son of David, will rule and return to this earth to establish.

Give me a break. Do you believe the link you posted or not? Is the kingdom of heaven (in the seven parables) a seperate kingdom or not?

The kingdom of heaven is just as earthly as your version of the Messianic Kingdom. Perfection is mingled with imperfection in both. Sin, bodily desires, and a final war will still exist no matter how much universal peace and righteousness you envision. And both are temporary. Your senario is just as big a postponement as the one you claim is happening now. The formost reason for Christ’s return is the full arrival of the perfect and the replacement of the present heaven and earth. (Rev 21-22)

Zech 8:1-8 "Then the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying, Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I am exceedingly jealous for Zion, yes, with great wrath I am jealous for her.’ Thus says the LORD, ’I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. . . This is an earthly scene, not a heavenly one.No, He’s not mistaken. But that generation of Jews has not seen the things He just previously described, including His return to this earth “after the tribulation of those days” (Matt. 24:29). Matthew chapter 24 is uniquely Jewish.Yes. This occurred in 70 A.D. It’s no mystery that He’s the Mediator of a new and better covenant in His blood. And after the destruction of the Temple the Jews were dispersed into the nations once again. But according to prophecy they’ll again return to the land and they, along with all the tribes of the earth, will see the King coming in the clouds (Matt. 24:29; Rev. 19:11 - 20:6), and through the Holy Spirit a Jewish remnant will see and believe (Zech. 12:10).

Now, if you want insight into what transpires “in that day,” read Zech. 14. You’ll see that “in that day” the Lord will be King over all the earth. But not until Christ returns to this earth will that prophecy be fulfilled and the earth filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the water covers the sea (Hab. 2:14).

The rest of your post goes off into a spiritualization of the prophetic Scriptures. IOW, you abandon what the Scriptures actually reveal and simply repeat the imaginations of other men. I have nothing to say about that. The literal Scriptures trump the fertile imaginations of men.

Nice try. Instead of understanding Zechariah as the clear and consistent prophet of the first advent of Christ, you have cut and pasted the book into total confusion.

You time warp Zechariah 8 and the beginning of 9 past the twentieth century, but are forced back to the first century. **Rejoice heartily, O daughter Zion, shout for joy, O daughter Jerusalem! See, your king shall come to you; a just savior is he, Meek, and riding on an ***, on a colt, the foal of an *. (Zech 9:9) And then you return back to the future in the very next verse, all the way through chapter 10.

Do you put Zechariah 11 in the future? How about chapter 12?

I’ll bet you start off chapter 13 in the future, but are forced to return to the first century again. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is my associate, says the LORD of hosts. Strike the shepherd that the sheep may be dispersed, and I will turn my hand against the little ones. (Zech 13:7) And then you return back to the future in the very next verse, all the way through chapter 14.

Your literal translation is the real imagination of men and you rip the entire book out of context.

 

[SHW]

I’ll repeat what I said in a previous post:"The inserted word “initial” prohibits the Catholic from ever resting on the all-glorious work of God’s Son for him at the cross - which rest amounts to FAITH through which “BY GRACE” God saves, giftwise (Gr. dorean, without-a-cause), i.e., “not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9)

Mi MD,

We call it our initial salvation because that is what it is!

We were saved through baptism. Jesus applies the merits of His Sacrifice to our souls through the Sacrament of Baptism and this Baptism washes away all our sins. (Acts 22:16)

We are being saved presently because we are following (imitating) Jesus in doing the Will of His Father. (Matthew 7:21, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, Hebrews 5:9, 1 John 2:4)

We will be saved in the future because we are enduring to the end of our lives “believing in” (obeying) the gospel of Jesus. (Hebrews 5:9, 2 Timothy 2:12, Titus 1:16)

**Salvation Scriptures: past, present, and future **

I have been saved. This is the first meaning of “saved” and “salvation” in scripture–Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation I am objectively saved–He died, rose from the dead, saved me from sin. (2 Corinthians 5:17) “So whoever is in Christ is a new creation.”

I am being saved. This is the second meaning of “saved” and “salvation” in scripture–the present experience, God’s power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin. (1 Corinthians 15:2) “Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.”

I will be saved, I have hope and confidence that God will give me the grace of perseverance; that I will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until my death. This acknowledges the third meaning the words “saved” and “salvation” have in scripture–the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ. (Romans 5:9) “How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.”

Salvation is a life-long process, not a one-time event. We must endure to the end of our lives in God’s grace in order to be saved. (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 13:21, Matthew 24:13, 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10, 2 Timothy 2:12)

There would be no need for “obedience” to Paul’s command to “work our salvation in fear and trembling” if it was already a done deal. Why would we need to fear and tremble?

2 Corinthians 7:1 "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. See (2 Cor. 12:19-20, 13:1-4), then:

2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."

We are to test ourselves to see if we are indeed still in the faith. If we are doing the things mentioned in the Corinthian passages above noted in parentheses, then we are definitely not in the faith. Unless we repent, we will not be saved.

1 Timothy 5:20 "Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

Hebrews 4:1-3 “Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’”although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.”

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Jesus’ sacrifice no longer saves us if we sin willfully after baptism.

1 Peter 1:17 "And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because “All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man[f] as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away, 25 But the word of the LORD endures forever.” Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you."

Salvation is an ongoing process until we die. We must continue in the faith, believing (obeying) the gospel of Jesus Christ until death.

Colossians 1:21-23 “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

If you do not continue in the faith, then you will not be saved when you die.

Persons who insist on OSAS are perverting the gospel of Christ. There would be no need to “fear” and “tremble” if it was a done deal. Obedience to God’s commandments is necessary in order to inherit eternal life.

Philippians 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”

Pax,
SHW