What ever happened to our church?

[JustaServant]

I think a lot of this behavior stems from the lack of a belief in the Real Presence. If people went to Church thinking they would be going up to greet the Pope they would probably dress and act much differently. How much more so should we be acting and dressing our best to receive Jesus.

I heard a priest once who was challenged thus: “how can God be in a specific place? Isn’t He everywhere?” To which he replied: “The problem with the idea that ‘God is everywhere’ is that ‘everywhere’ transforms rather quickly into ‘nowhere’”.
I’ve seen people walk past the small Chapal for the Tabernacle (in the back of the Church) and give no notice to it at all. Leroy speaks loudly to Joe about his fishing trip and women laugh loudly.
Do they truly understand the Lord is there?

 

[Julianna]

Oh sorry. Spiritus said those are the “kinds of things you may see since Vatican II. With the Novus Ordo Mass, always expect the un-expected”. So I just thought you meant here we go again… on Vat 2.

It is obvious that SS doesn’t care for Vat II. I don’t see the problem at all. All the talk about “holding hands”, “jeans and flip flops” seems to me…the “focus” is on what the person next to you is wearing or that the family likes to hold hands. I don’t see the big deal. It has been stated many times by the “hard liners” on CAF that such practices are “horizontal” and this is where the Church as come to. IMHO it is a preference. If you like the stoiciness of the TLM…have it at…this is where you or whoever “feels” the presence of Christ most strongly. In the NO, there are those who “feel” the gathering of “community” the presence of Christ.

I have no quarrel with those who prefer the TLM. What I do have concern with is the trashing of the NO and stating that it is less real and reverant.

Having a picnic during Mass is a bit much. For my step into the conservative arena, my DH and I taught our children from day 1 how to behave in public. Church is a place, we told them where people are praying and praising God. I told them to be respectful of others so they can pray and sit quietly at Mass. They choose 1 book, no crayons, and definately no food. Also attending the Mass where there are mostly “families” is a good choice. Going to the 7 am or the 11 am Mass where there are mostly seniors…with the kiddos…you will get stared at…even though the kids are quiet. I keep in mind they are “old school”. So when the kids were little, we went to the family mass at 9 am. When they were teens, they liked the 6 PM on Sunday.

If you have attended the Masses at your church at different times there is a definate clientel and mood.

 

[momor]

If you have attended the Masses at your church at different times there is a definate clientel and mood.

Good point. This is very true at my church too. I prefer the 8:00am because it is quieter and is a smaller more consistent group of people. Our priest joked one time that we all sit in the same place so he knows at a glance who slept in that day. I love the idea that he notices if I’m not there.

For music we have just our wonderful soloist /cantor (professional singer) and piano. I thank God every Sunday for the beautiful, reverent music. I also think we get a little longer homily (good preaching too) because the Mass lasts as long as the others but communion time is less than half as long. I thank God for our wonderful priest. And all of this at a NO Mass too!

Oh too, we have a beautiful circular wood-beamed non-traditional church building with lots of clear windows. In the winter the church is dark when Mass starts but then the sun comes up during Mass and birds fly by the clerestory windows all about the time of the Consecration. I just love that!

 

[ProVobis]

Sure I would. I’ve never actually worn flip flops and I don’t chit chat a whole lot. But I’ve worn sneakers and I’ve seen people who have worn flip flops and parishoners conversing with each other and priests walking up and down the aisle conversing with their flock in not at all hushed tones and it doesn’t bother me in the least. Why should it? Christ walked amongst His flock in sandals and simple clothing. I would venture to say some of his disciples had sandals on too. I believe He would want us to fellowship with each other in His Presence and doesn’t care in the least if someone has flip flops on. Christ doesn’t say you can only come to Me in dress clothes.

This is kindergarten logic. Tell you what. Next time you get invited to a wedding, go like that. After all the Wedding at Cana didn’t have tuxedos and ties and everyone was happy with the Lord.

 

[ProVobis]

I love the idea that he notices if I’m not there.

Now we’re getting somewhere.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

Sure I would. I’ve never actually worn flip flops and I don’t chit chat a whole lot. But I’ve worn sneakers and I’ve seen people who have worn flip flops and parishoners conversing with each other and priests walking up and down the aisle conversing with their flock in not at all hushed tones and it doesn’t bother me in the least. Why should it? Christ walked amongst His flock in sandals and simple clothing. I would venture to say some of his disciples had sandals on too. I believe He would want us to fellowship with each other in His Presence and doesn’t care in the least if someone has flip flops on. Christ doesn’t say you can only come to Me in dress clothes.

You have to dress reverently, though. If you had the opportunity to see Christ in person one day, would you show up in blue jeans with holes in them and flip flops, or would you dress more reverently?

By the way, “fellowship” is more of a protestant term. You’re not supposed to “fellowship” with others, you’re supposed to focus on His presence.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

It is obvious that SS doesn’t care for Vat II. I don’t see the problem at all. All the talk about “holding hands”, “jeans and flip flops” seems to me…the “focus” is on what the person next to you is wearing or that the family likes to hold hands. I don’t see the big deal. It has been stated many times by the “hard liners” on CAF that such practices are “horizontal” and this is where the Church as come to. IMHO it is a preference. If you like the stoiciness of the TLM…have it at…this is where you or whoever “feels” the presence of Christ most strongly. In the NO, there are those who “feel” the gathering of “community” the presence of Christ.

I have no quarrel with those who prefer the TLM. What I do have concern with is the trashing of the NO and stating that it is less real and reverant.

Having a picnic during Mass is a bit much. For my step into the conservative arena, my DH and I taught our children from day 1 how to behave in public. Church is a place, we told them where people are praying and praising God. I told them to be respectful of others so they can pray and sit quietly at Mass. They choose 1 book, no crayons, and definately no food. Also attending the Mass where there are mostly “families” is a good choice. Going to the 7 am or the 11 am Mass where there are mostly seniors…with the kiddos…you will get stared at…even though the kids are quiet. I keep in mind they are “old school”. So when the kids were little, we went to the family mass at 9 am. When they were teens, they liked the 6 PM on Sunday.

If you have attended the Masses at your church at different times there is a definate clientel and mood.

Most Traditional Catholics don’t care for Vatican II, and you’re right when you say I don’t. As for the NO, I don’t remember stating it is less real, but I did say it’s not as reverent as the TLM, and it isn’t. That’s how all Traditional Catholics feel, there’s nothing wrong with us preffering the reverence of the TLM over the Novus Ordo.

 

[MarkThompson]

By the way, “fellowship” is more of a protestant term. You’re not supposed to “fellowship” with others, you’re supposed to focus on His presence.

Acts 2:42: “They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.”

1 John 1:6-7 “If we say, ‘We have fellowship with him,’ while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin.”

LOL, not supposed to have fellowship with one another!

 

[JosephdeMaistre]

Most Traditional Catholics don’t care for Vatican II, and you’re right when you say I don’t. As for the NO, I don’t remember stating it is less real, but I did say it’s not as reverent as the TLM, and it isn’t. That’s how all Traditional Catholics feel, there’s nothing wrong with us preffering the reverence of the TLM over the Novus Ordo.

Correct. Ever since I started attending the TLM, I immediately began to notice that my respect for the Eucharist has risen dramatically.

I receive the Body of Christ on the tongue, kneeling. Christ appreciates when we show him reverence too:

Luke 10:38-42

38 Now it came to pass as they went, that he entered into a certain town: and a certain woman named Martha, received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sitting also at the Lord’s feet, heard his word. 40 But Martha was busy about much serving. Who stood and said: Lord, hast thou no care that my sister hath left me alone to serve? speak to her therefore, that she help me.

41 And the Lord answering, said to her: Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled about many things: 42 But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.

 

[CMatt25]

It is obvious that SS doesn’t care for Vat II. I don’t see the problem at all. All the talk about “holding hands”, “jeans and flip flops” seems to me…the “focus” is on what the person next to you is wearing or that the family likes to hold hands. I don’t see the big deal. It has been stated many times by the “hard liners” on CAF that such practices are “horizontal” and this is where the Church as come to. IMHO it is a preference. If you like the stoiciness of the TLM…have it at…this is where you or whoever “feels” the presence of Christ most strongly. In the NO, there are those who “feel” the gathering of “community” the presence of Christ.

I have no quarrel with those who prefer the TLM. What I do have concern with is the trashing of the NO and stating that it is less real and reverant.

Having a picnic during Mass is a bit much. For my step into the conservative arena, my DH and I taught our children from day 1 how to behave in public. Church is a place, we told them where people are praying and praising God. I told them to be respectful of others so they can pray and sit quietly at Mass. They choose 1 book, no crayons, and definately no food. Also attending the Mass where there are mostly “families” is a good choice. Going to the 7 am or the 11 am Mass where there are mostly seniors…with the kiddos…you will get stared at…even though the kids are quiet. I keep in mind they are “old school”. So when the kids were little, we went to the family mass at 9 am. When they were teens, they liked the 6 PM on Sunday.

If you have attended the Masses at your church at different times there is a definate clientel and mood.

Julianna, I don’t see the problem either and couldn’t agree more about the focus. A family holding hands is a sign of love. What is so not Christ-like about that? . Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

This is kindergarten logic. Tell you what. Next time you get invited to a wedding, go like that. After all the Wedding at Cana didn’t have tuxedos and ties and everyone was happy with the Lord.

Thanks for judging my logic. I remember God saying something about little children though so I won’t take offense. While I’ve actually gone to weddings without a tie and in a pullover shirt and slacks, a wedding, etc has human expectations. Some want to place the same expectations onto God. You can. I don’t. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

You have to dress reverently, though. If you had the opportunity to see Christ in person one day, would you show up in blue jeans with holes in them and flip flops, or would you dress more reverently?

By the way, “fellowship” is more of a protestant term. You’re not supposed to “fellowship” with others, you’re supposed to focus on His presence.

I’m sitting here in a pair of shorts. If Christ returned right now, do you think I’d take time to go check out my wardrobe in the closet? Uh no my wardrobe wouldn’t quite be my priority.

Well then was Christ a Protestant? He didn’t fellowship?

 

[CMatt25]

Most Traditional Catholics don’t care for Vatican II, and you’re right when you say I don’t. As for the NO, I don’t remember stating it is less real, but I did say it’s not as reverent as the TLM, and it isn’t. That’s how all Traditional Catholics feel, there’s nothing wrong with us preffering the reverence of the TLM over the Novus Ordo.

If you read Julianna’s post you would see she didn’t say there was anything wrong with what you prefer. In fact she said the exact opposite.

 

[Julianna]

If you read Julianna’s post you would see she didn’t say there was anything wrong with what you prefer. In fact she said the exact opposite.

CMatt: Extremist views rarely change and never see any other pov or preference. If the extreme pov had a way…we all would be in the TLM. It seems to rub some folks the wrong way that NO happened. This is what it is all about…nothing more.

 

[CradleCath]

CMatt: **Extremist **views rarely change and never see any other pov or preference. If the extreme pov had a way…we all would be in the TLM. It seems to rub some folks the wrong way that NO happened. This is what it is all about…nothing more.

Extremists?? WOW. “Never see any other point of view??” hmmm.
Progressives laud tolerance. They will tolerate homosexual unions, Catholics who use artificial birth control, women “forced” to have an abortion…they will tolerate just about anything except for Traditional Catholicism.

BTW., Several of you have mentioned “my (or your) preference” concerning which Mass to attend. IMO., our own preferences are unimportant. I think what really matters is God’s preference. Though our human brains are sometimes faulty…clouded by emotionalism, past impressions & experiences…it’s our duty to search out a Mass that we consider, after study & open-minded deduction, to be **God’s **preference. The Mass which seems to most bring honor & glory to Him. It is He who suffered the Sacrifice which is offered there. He is the source & summit of this Mass & of our whole faith…not us. Our own preferences are as nothing. His are all that matters. Do I believe that He has a preference? Yes, I do. It may be a different one for different people, but I definitely believe that the forms of the Mass matter to Him.

For one thing, NO ONE should say anything about a Mass they have attended only once or twice. That’s why I’m searching for a Charismatic Mass. While, it seems to be something based upon emotion…which doesn’t fit my personality at all… Pope John Paul II stated that “the movement was important to the renewal of the entire Catholic Church”. Therfeore, I have a duty to check it out. I certainly would never speak badly of (or praise) it without doing so.

BTW., I attended the TLM. for the first 25 yrs. of my life…then attended the Novus Ordo for the next 40 yrs. How many years have you attended each of these Masses? Since you seem to connect “extremism” with attending the TLM., I think that this is a fair question.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

Correct. Ever since I started attending the TLM, I immediately began to notice that my respect for the Eucharist has risen dramatically.

I receive the Body of Christ on the tongue, kneeling. Christ appreciates when we show him reverence too:

Luke 10:38-42

38 Now it came to pass as they went, that he entered into a certain town: and a certain woman named Martha, received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sitting also at the Lord’s feet, heard his word. 40 But Martha was busy about much serving. Who stood and said: Lord, hast thou no care that my sister hath left me alone to serve? speak to her therefore, that she help me.

41 And the Lord answering, said to her: Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled about many things: 42 But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Very nice post!

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

CMatt: Extremist views rarely change and never see any other pov or preference. If the extreme pov had a way…we all would be in the TLM. It seems to rub some folks the wrong way that NO happened. This is what it is all about…nothing more.

You’re calling me and other Traditionals extremists? That’s not right at all.

 

[Julianna]

Extremists?? WOW. “Never see any other point of view??” hmmm.
Progressives laud tolerance. They will tolerate homosexual unions, Catholics who use artificial birth control, women “forced” to have an abortion…they will tolerate just about anything except for Traditional Catholicism.

BTW., Several of you have mention “my (or your) preference” concerning which Mass to attend. IMO., our own preferences are unimportant. I think what really matters is God’s preference. Though our human brains are sometimes faulty…clouded by emotionalism, past impressions & experiences…it’s our duty to search out a Mass that we consider, after study & open-minded decuction, to be **God’s **preference.

For one thing, NO ONE should say anything about a Mass they have never attended. That’s why I’m searching for a Charismatic Mass. While, it seems to be something based upon emotion…which doesn’t fit my personality at all… Pope John Paul II stated that “the movement was important to the renewal of the entire Catholic Church”. Therfeore, I have a duty to check it out. I certainly would never speak badly of (or praise) it without doing so.

BTW., I attended the TLM. for the first 25 yrs. of my life…then attended the Novus Ordo for the next 40 yrs. How many years have you attended each of these Masses? Since you seem to connect “extremism” with attending the TLM., I think that this is a fair question.

Who said I was a progressive? As a “human being” and an individual “thinking” person who was made by God in His image. I do have discernment. I also have “respect” enough for my “senior” Mass goers to attend the “family” Mass at 9AM “should” my children…“being children after all”…get antsy. I have attended a Charismatic Mass and I have attended a Pentacostal service. (I dated a Pentacostal boy in high school). Not my cup of tea. I was born in 58, so yes, I have been to a TLM. And I remember when I didn’t have to wear a hat to Mass. As I grew older I realized that priests and nuns did not walk on water and they put on their pants/skirts the same as I.

It is my personal belief that the reason the scandals are coming out now…is because “back then” NO ONE would ever DARE to question priest. Even if the child told his parents “back then” they too would not DARE to question their parish priest, nor would they dare to report it. The US has come a long way from simple immigrants in the early 20th century. Of all the scandal threads on CAF…I was suprised that someone didn’t come up with that simple reasoning. Maybe people are afraid to say so.

As for homosexual “unions”…render to Caesar what is his and to God what is His. Marriage connotates a religious deity…celebration…sacrament. I do not begrudge those of the same sex to have a lawful union. A religious one is not allowed in the Catholic Church and most other religions as it is against their tenants of faith based on Biblical Doctrine. There are several couples of homosexual men in my neighborhood…I never worried about my children around them…and if asked, I would visit their home and they are welcome in mine. I do not believe that I am superior to them…nor do I believe they are the devils spawn.

I have never known anyone who was “forced” to have an abortion. As for birth control…take a look around the pews on Sunday. You won’t find many Dugger Families there. Gee, I wonder why? Again, Caesars law not God’s. I live in the United States of America. Seperation of Church and State is a good thing. Everyone in the US is not Catholic…nor are they all Protestant. I didn’t raise my children to live in a fishbowl…they live in the “real” world. Jesus…lived in the “real world” as did the Apostles. By their fruits you shall know them.

Yes, there are extremists in any faction of a belief system religion and politics. I am an independent/moderate. There are a few on here who have said so. The TLM is the end all and be all and the NO is some “progressive” mindset that has caused all the ills of the Catholic faith since VatII showed up on the scene.

Now picnicing in the pews is over the top. I believe I made that clear. Am I passionate… you bet. I am just as annoyed by the shouting match of the extremists in politics as I am of the extremists in the Church.

If the picnicing family have made a habit of this…why didn’t anyone let the parish priest know about it?

 

[Julianna]

You’re calling me and other Traditionals extremists? That’s not right at all.

When you rail against the NO and can find not one shred of good in it, yepper, that is extreme.

…but an opinion…and you know what it said about opinions…

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

When you rail against the NO and can find not one shred of good in it, yepper, that is extreme.

…but an opinion…and you know what it said about opinions…

I suppose everyone who is a Traditional Catholic and supports the TLM over the NO is considered an extremist in your eyes.

When I’m called an extremist, it only makes me want to keep believing in what I believe in more.