What good has come out of Vatican II?

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I’d like to ask a question. Why do people think the Mass should still be said in Latin? Do they believe saying the Mass in the native tougue of the country is wrong?

Personally, I have no strong feelings regarding the language used. I would say however that as a convert, If the Mass was still said in Latin and not English, I would have had to learn Latin in order to participate in the Mass. I would also like to add that I have two young children and the work that children have to cope with now puts them under a lot of pressure, particularly when it comes to exams, and learning Latin which would be used only at Mass would increase their burden. Not that I would have any objection to them learning prayers in Latin as well as English and perhaps parts of the Mass, I’ve learned some things in Latin myself now, but I don’t see anything wrong with saying the Mass in the countries native tongue.
 
Sometimes it seems as though you Trads won’t be happy until the Church returns to the Middle Ages.
I’m not a “trad”, but I think many of them would be happy for the Church as it was, say, 50 years ago. Or perhaps you think that the Church remained the same since the Middle Ages until Vatican II?
Vatican II is here to stay, yet you can still attend the Latin Mass. What’s there to be unhappy about?
Perhaps because there’s still confusion about what Vatican II actually said and what people continually claim Vatican II said. Our present Pope has spoken several times about the liturgical reform called for by Vatican II, and the unrest that came with certain liturgical reforms that took place after Vatican II.

I think all true Catholics would like the Roman Rite to have one form, one which is loyal to the liturgical heritage of the Rite, is continuous with the traditional liturgy, allows for the vernacular in those parts which are most aided by it, and accurately and reverently both a) expresses the Catholic faith (as much of it as is possible) and b) worships God according to that faith.
 
Where is this documented? And what does Canon 249 say?
I don’t get what you mean, but this is Canon 249. It doesn’t mention anathema. I did not mean to imply that just because the Church changes its penalties that the princilple behind the original punishment evaporates.

Can. 249 The Charter of Priestly Formation is to provide that the students are not only taught their native language accurately, but are also well versed in Latin, and have a suitable knowledge of other languages which would appear to be necessary or useful for their formation or for the exercise of their pastoral ministry.
 
I’d like to ask a question. Why do people think the Mass should still be said in Latin? Do they believe saying the Mass in the native tougue of the country is wrong?
Parts of the Mass would be aided by being in the vernacular. But much of the Mass should be retained in the Latin. People who are against completely vernacular Masses are probably against them because a) it represents a refusal of Latin, the language of the Latin Rite, b) the translation might not be an accurate one, c) that Mass then is only accessible to those who speak that language.

A Mass that retains Latin, on the other hand, a) represents an acceptance of Latin, b) uses the official text from which the translations should have been made, and c) is accessible to all the faithful at least at some level. By “c)” there, I mean that the Church has directed Her bishops and pastors to instruct the faithful in making Latin responses to the “Ordinary” of the Mass. The Church thinks we’re capable of it.

We are called to “full, conscious, and active participation” in the liturgy.

Consider this scenario: John, an American, goes to Mass in Switzerland, where the Mass is celebrated entirely in Swiss. Because John only knows enough Swedish to get by (“hello”, “where is the bathroom?”, “excuse me sir, but your windmill is on fire!”) he cannot make the verbal responses along with the Swiss Catholics. John can a) say the responses out loud in English, b) say the responses quietly (or silently) in English, c) try to pronounce the Swiss words, d) just shut up.

Now consider this scenario: John, an American, whose pastor back home has taken the time to teach his parish to make most of the standard responses of Mass in Latin, goes to Mass in Switzerland where, praise be to God, their pastor also has taught his parish the simple phrases of Latin to be used in every Mass. Because John knows the Latin phrases (and what they mean), he can make the verbal responses along with the Swiss Catholics.

Which scenario seems a better example of the “catholicity” (that is, the universality) of the Church? Which better exemplifies the unity of liturgy and language within a single Rite of the Church? Where does there appear, by most standards, a better “active participation” in the Mass?
Personally, I have no strong feelings regarding the language used. I would say however that as a convert, If the Mass was still said in Latin and not English, I would have had to learn Latin in order to participate in the Mass.
No, you would not. If that were the case, then only those Catholics who knew Latin would have ever been participating in the Mass.

You only need to know the Latin which is used over and over again in the Mass. This can be learned without much effort on your part; the effort is really on the pastor’s side! And you already know what the Latin means, since you say it in English already (although sometimes the English translation is very poor).

As for the Latin used in the Mass which changes from day-to-day, there it might be more likely for the vernacular to be used. And even where the vernacular is not used, the assistance of a “daily missal” (which has accurate translations of the Latin, sometimes side-by-side with the Latin) is most welcome. The Church actually encouraged their use!
I would also like to add that I have two young children and the work that children have to cope with now puts them under a lot of pressure, particularly when it comes to exams, and learning Latin which would be used only at Mass would increase their burden.
I think children, who generally have better (or at least, purer) imaginations than we adults, would be more receptive to learning a few phrases in this ancient tongue. And knowledge of Latin assists those people who speak languages that are in some way derived from Latin; many words, like “campus” and “pastor”, for example, come directly from Latin.
 
I’d like to ask a question. Why do people think the Mass should still be said in Latin? Do they believe saying the Mass in the native tougue of the country is wrong?

Personally, I have no strong feelings regarding the language used. I would say however that as a convert, If the Mass was still said in Latin and not English, I would have had to learn Latin in order to participate in the Mass. I would also like to add that I have two young children and the work that children have to cope with now puts them under a lot of pressure, particularly when it comes to exams, and learning Latin which would be used only at Mass would increase their burden. Not that I would have any objection to them learning prayers in Latin as well as English and perhaps parts of the Mass, I’ve learned some things in Latin myself now, but I don’t see anything wrong with saying the Mass in the countries native tongue.
I don’t know why people who haven’t experienced TLM before think they must “learn” to speak the Latin language. I grew up with TLM and still can’t converse in Latin, but what I can do is read and pronounce it while also looking at the English translation of the Latin on the adjoining page of the Missal.
 
The canonical punishment of anathema no longer exists. It went out twenty years ago with the latest addition of the Code of Canon Law.
Where did you get that idea from?!? Can you substantiate it?

Pax Christi tecum.
 
NO…there was no need for a ‘re-new’ why…conversions were at an all time high,members of the Church always knew where the Church stood on important issues of the day…Masses were crowded…if was a proud event to receive for going to confession was difficult but after it was over one felt …clean! Convents were crowded also with new sisters and the orders were bursting at the seams…Respect for the clergy was at an all time time…even the sit-coms of the 50s and early 60s showed respect for Catholicism…Vat.11 was and still is a disaster…I remember the nuns at my school,they changed their habits and some started slipping away in the middle of the nite ,jumping over the wall…remember that one…they were also brainwashed by several well trained demons who went from order to order claiming it was now Gods will to become social workers instead of Sisters…both orders at my former school where I taught have gone under…
 
Parts of the Mass would be aided by being in the vernacular. But much of the Mass should be retained in the Latin. People who are against completely vernacular Masses are probably against them because a) it represents a refusal of Latin, the language of the Latin Rite, b) the translation might not be an accurate one, c) that Mass then is only accessible to those who speak that language.

A Mass that retains Latin, on the other hand, a) represents an acceptance of Latin, b) uses the official text from which the translations should have been made, and c) is accessible to all the faithful at least at some level. By “c)” there, I mean that the Church has directed Her bishops and pastors to instruct the faithful in making Latin responses to the “Ordinary” of the Mass. The Church thinks we’re capable of it.

We are called to “full, conscious, and active participation” in the liturgy.

Consider this scenario: John, an American, goes to Mass in Switzerland, where the Mass is celebrated entirely in Swiss. Because John only knows enough Swedish to get by (“hello”, “where is the bathroom?”, “excuse me sir, but your windmill is on fire!”) he cannot make the verbal responses along with the Swiss Catholics. John can a) say the responses out loud in English, b) say the responses quietly (or silently) in English, c) try to pronounce the Swiss words, d) just shut up.

Now consider this scenario: John, an American, whose pastor back home has taken the time to teach his parish to make most of the standard responses of Mass in Latin, goes to Mass in Switzerland where, praise be to God, their pastor also has taught his parish the simple phrases of Latin to be used in every Mass. Because John knows the Latin phrases (and what they mean), he can make the verbal responses along with the Swiss Catholics.

Which scenario seems a better example of the “catholicity” (that is, the universality) of the Church? Which better exemplifies the unity of liturgy and language within a single Rite of the Church? Where does there appear, by most standards, a better “active participation” in the Mass?

No, you would not. If that were the case, then only those Catholics who knew Latin would have ever been participating in the Mass.

You only need to know the Latin which is used over and over again in the Mass. This can be learned without much effort on your part; the effort is really on the pastor’s side! And you already know what the Latin means, since you say it in English already (although sometimes the English translation is very poor).

As for the Latin used in the Mass which changes from day-to-day, there it might be more likely for the vernacular to be used. And even where the vernacular is not used, the assistance of a “daily missal” (which has accurate translations of the Latin, sometimes side-by-side with the Latin) is most welcome. The Church actually encouraged their use!

I think children, who generally have better (or at least, purer) imaginations than we adults, would be more receptive to learning a few phrases in this ancient tongue. And knowledge of Latin assists those people who speak languages that are in some way derived from Latin; many words, like “campus” and “pastor”, for example, come directly from Latin.
“Now consider this scenario: John, an American, whose pastor back home has taken the time to teach his parish to make most of the standard responses of Mass in Latin, goes to Mass in Switzerland where, praise be to God, their pastor also has taught his parish the simple phrases of Latin to be used in every Mass. Because John knows the Latin phrases (and what they mean), he can make the verbal responses along with the Swiss Catholics”

Having experienced the Mass in Latin before Vatican II, the idea of all churches everywhere using the Latin Mass does help one feel “right at home”. I experienced this in Italy in 1960 during the Council in Rome. I have also attended a Spanish Mass. Didn’t understand a word, so had to really pay attention to the priest and the ritual. It was okay, but I did like that Mass in Italy better. But since we, so far, still speak English here in the U.S. I can live with the vernacular here. It would just be an inconvenience for me in another country that didn’t have English as its mother tongue.
 
Where did you get that idea from?!? Can you substantiate it?

Pax Christi tecum.
I heard the bishop/canon lawyer state that when a new code is issued the old one is abbrogated on CA Live radio. Believe it, or don’t. Address this to the AAA forum if you want.
 
I heard the bishop/canon lawyer state that when a new code is issued the old one is abbrogated on CA Live radio. Believe it, or don’t. Address this to the AAA forum if you want.
How does the old Law being abrogated mean there are no longer anathemas?

Pax Christi tecum.
 
How does the old Law being abrogated mean there are no longer anathemas?

Pax Christi tecum.
Because anathema is a canonical penalty. It is a specific punishment, not a curse. FYI - I just read that the 1917 code made anathema synonymous with excommunication, doing away with the idea of minor and major excommunications. So the idea was already floating around.
 
Because anathema is a canonical penalty. It is a specific punishment, not a curse. FYI - I just read that the 1917 code made anathema synonymous with excommunication, doing away with the idea of minor and major excommunications. So the idea was already floating around.
I still don’t follow. How does abrogating a former Code of Canon Law mean that a canonical penalty is gone? Wouldn’t the canonical penalty apply just as well to the new Code?

I don’t get it.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
I still don’t follow. How does abrogating a former Code of Canon Law mean that a canonical penalty is gone? Wouldn’t the canonical penalty apply just as well to the new Code?

I don’t get it.

Pax Christi tecum.
If the anathema was equal to an excommunication,and if you violated the Council of Trents canons where an “anathema sit” was placed, that person was out of the Church, right? So a person, back then, if they believed that the Mass should be said in the vulger tongue, was out of the Church. But, if the anathemas are no longer valid, like some claim, is that person who violated it back then, and was anathematised, suddenly, back in the Church today, since they are no longer valid? :confused: Kind of pulled out of the fire, so to speak?:confused: It doesn’t make sense
 
CANON IX.–If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.
This canon isn’t in the new code of canon law. Therefore it is not in force.
 
We’re in Vatican II now. Use the recent canons.
My question was not answered. I know we’re in VII now, thanks for informing me. Since there are no canons in the documents of VII ,I didn’t mention it. My question again: If a canon is not mentioned in the new code of canon law, from Ninea to Vatican I, is it “no longer in force”.
 
We’re in Vatican II now. Use the recent canons.
Dude, Vatican II didn’t issue any canons. And the 1917 code of canon law was not simply a listing of all the canons from all the councils in the Church’s history.

You are confusing “canon law” with canons from Councils.
 
Dude, Vatican II didn’t issue any canons. And the 1917 code of canon law was not simply a listing of all the canons from all the councils in the Church’s history.

You are confusing “canon law” with canons from Councils.
Also, there is confusion of anathema with “damning” when they are not the same thing. The penalty of anathema is not longer used. This does not mean it is no longer in effect for those in Hell, not that the Church performs final judgement anyway. One more interesting note is that canon law only applies to Catholics.
 
If the anathema was equal to an excommunication,and if you violated the Council of Trents canons where an “anathema sit” was placed, that person was out of the Church, right? So a person, back then, if they believed that the Mass should be said in the vulger tongue, was out of the Church. But, if the anathemas are no longer valid, like some claim, is that person who violated it back then, and was anathematised, suddenly, back in the Church today, since they are no longer valid? :confused: Kind of pulled out of the fire, so to speak?:confused: It doesn’t make sense
I guess the answer to questions like that are left to God’s decision. Thought provoking, but I personally don’t know the answer. ie. is Salvation retroactive. :confused:
 
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