What if I made a mistake becoming Catholic?

[Pixie_Dust]

This is a legitimate prayer cited by Catholic on this forum…

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Yes, he mentions Jesus one time in the prayer but that does not warrant, based on the context of scripture, this kind of sacrificing of oneself to Mary as we see here. This is praying TO Mary and not asking for intercession.

It’s all about what you choose to emphasize. Who is this constant adoration and thanksgiving inclined toward? Mary says, “My soul magnifies the Lord.” To have Mary in us and through us is to magnify the LORD.

It’s not a required prayer. If you don’t like it, don’t pray it.

 

[Allweather]

Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
– Pope John Paul II

Yes. That is exactly what Mary does. No less, no more. She never points to herself. She always leads us to her son, Jesus. She is the perfect way to Jesus. A shortcut, if you will. Mary never fails. Ask Mary for Jesus, and she will bear Him to you.

 

[kbharbert]

This is a legitimate prayer cited by Catholic on this forum…

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Yes, he mentions Jesus one time in the prayer but that does not warrant, based on the context of scripture, this kind of sacrificing of oneself to Mary as we see here. This is praying TO Mary and not asking for intercession.

i think there’s a problem here with the usage of the words TO and PRAY. at least in the way they are meant.
if i want to TALK to mary, i can’t very well call her up on the phone or meet her at skipper joes for coffee.
MY praying TO mary means i am TALKING to her.
in the above prayer there is nothing that ISN’T asking for intercession.
Jesus loved his mother. he gave her to us to be our mother as well. i love and respect her as much as i do my mother here on earth and i go to her in the same way.
the prayer is asking for her to overcome MY very human faults and make me more like her.
more loving, more kind, more gentle, more EVERYTHING.
the KEY line in that prayer is:
“Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus”
that is the ENTIRE ball of wax right there.

 

[Renton405]

This may seem a strange question, but we recently became Catholics which I was very keen to do, but we cannot go to Mass as a family (our toddler plays up and I get angry with my son when people look). In our old protestant churches where contraception is allowed, there are crying rooms and creches, yet in our Parish there is no such thing, so we need to separate. I am sure that is not what God would want, yet I cannot ignore the stares.

I am also having real problems with Our Lady. I actually thought I had advanced a long way. I thought prayers like the Memorare that seemed to place Mary on par with God were rare, but there are lots of them and I am discovering so much Marian devotion that it’s like Jesus is forgotten. I used to defend Catholics when Prots said that catholics worshipped Mary, but now I am in the Church, I have to admit it is actually quite true! More prayers are said to Mary than the Holy Spirit, who is one of the Trinity, or even Jesus it seems…think Hail Marys, for instance. We can pray directly to God in Jesus name (as he said), so although I accept praying for intercession, Our Lady should not be a necessary step unless we want her to be. Terms like Mediatrix of all grace are misleading. What about co-redemptrix?

What’s more “prayer aids” such as statues with kneelers are a violation against the graven images commandment.

I also have a problem with the Magesterium ignoring the “divorce clause” in Matthew for adultery. Not because I am in that situation, but becuase the Church is overruling a specific clear statement of Jesus himself. I trusted the Church would always interpret Scripture but be in harmony with it, not contradict it.

If I follow my conscience, do I become an apostate and therefore damned?

Yea during mass there aren’t any prayers to Mary… i don’t know where you seem to get that from… I believe the marian prayers are optional, as well as the rosary… optional but very incouraged

 

[theAuthor]

On a separate issue, I notice that in your original post you mention that sometimes there are more prayers to Mary than to Christ (though that is not true of the Mass).

This is a common argument made by Protestants, especially concerning the Rosary.

Consider something if you would? Why is more necessarily mean better? The thinking is that because the Rosary contains more Hail Mary’s then Catholics must place Mary above God.

Aside from the explanations of the content of the Hail Mary and other Marian prayers, which are very worthy in my opinion, I think it is faulty logic.

For example, there are more days of the year that are not Lent or Advent, but does that make those two Liturgical seasons less important? In theory Lazarus died twice (he was raised by Christ) and Jesus died but once - does that somehow diminish Christ’s death on the cross? Of course not.

Please forgive me if I seem hostile, I don’t mean to be at all. I’ve just never understood that particular viewpoint.

The answers:

1. Coming from a position centred on praying to the Godhead alone and being told that you have a direct line to God in the New Covenant, one can wonder why add another step? Mary was human and followed God’s will perfectly? So was Jesus, and so did he. So coming into the church, you can feel like you are *cheating on *God by praying to someone else. I felt very guilty about addressing prayers to anyone except God directly. The exception is a Saint who is not Immaculate as Mary was, but one who has sinned in an area. So, praying to Mary → guilt, praying to Augustine ->no guilt, Jesus can’t relate to being a sinner cos he never sinned.
2. *Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
   Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
   Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
   Give me your dispositions and feelings.
   Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
   Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.

Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II*

Anyone who has even a basic grasp of the NT should know that things like:
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself. Should be addressed to God Himself directly, specifically, this is a function of the Holy Spirit. As Paul calls it, being led by the Spirit, and living according to the Spirit.

Pray in me and through me Another function of the HS.

It is not being contrary to make these points. The Bible makes them throughout the Pauline letters.

 

[Vaclav]

you know, i never really THOUGHT about it but that is EXACTLY why my baptist family thinks i’m worshiping and praying TO Mary instead of ASKING for intercession with the rosary…it’s the ‘there’s more hail mary’s than our fathers’ thing.
what thy never ‘get’ (and i’ve even used PICTURES) are the mysteries involved.
the ‘hail mary’ i’ve always explained as a repeat of the conversations of the angel to mary and the words between mary and elizabeth. the last part is us asking her to pray for us now and at our death.

As a former Protestant I completely understand what you’re going through. My family are all still Protestants and the gulf between their views on Mary and our views are striking.

Somewhere in the history of Protestantism, the importance of Our Lady was lost. Worse than that, within the hearts of some she was even looked upon with spite because she is so symbolic of the Church. In this case we cannot even lay blame upon the earliest leaders of the Reformation as Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin all mostly agreed with the Church’s view of the Blessed Virgin. Luther even wrote his own prayers for her.

Having been on the other side and viewed her as “just a woman.” I don’t know if Protestants will ever accept the truth. I know that to love our Mother has been an amazing part of conversion for me. I hope she will forgive me for my previous callous disregard of her.

The “you all worship Mary” debate is probably one of the most frequent that I’ve witnessed on this site. I’ve yet to see many responses to reason. I tend to do as some have done here and reply with deep sarcasm that, “yes you caught us, we worship statues, burn pagans, and eat kittens too.” It all becomes so ridiculous after you’ve made every rational argument from the Bible, Sacred Tradition, theology, and the early Christians that you can.

Maybe we need to try harder? I don’t know.

 

[Vaclav]

The answers:

1. Coming from a position centred on praying to the Godhead alone and being told that you have a direct line to God in the New Covenant, one can wonder why add another step? Mary was human and followed God’s will perfectly? So was Jesus, and so did he. So coming into the church, you can feel like you are *cheating on *God by praying to someone else. I felt very guilty about addressing prayers to anyone except God directly. The exception is a Saint who is not Immaculate as Mary was, but one who has sinned in an area. So, praying to Mary → guilt, praying to Augustine ->no guilt, Jesus can’t relate to being a sinner cos he never sinned.
2. *Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
   Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
   Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
   Give me your dispositions and feelings.
   Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
   Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.

Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II*

Anyone who has even a basic grasp of the NT should know that things like:
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself. Should be addressed to God Himself directly, specifically, this is a function of the Holy Spirit. As Paul calls it, being led by the Spirit, and living according to the Spirit.

Pray in me and through me Another function of the HS.

It is not being contrary to make these points. The Bible makes them throughout the Pauline letters.

David,

Have you discussed this with the priest that you mentioned (the one you really trust and who cares for you and your family)?

Remember that this was Pope John Paul II’s personal devotion to Our Lady, though there are similar prayers of consecration to her from early Christians.

From Saint Augustine

Blessed Virgin Mary,
who can worthily repay you with praise
and thanks for having rescued a fallen world
by your generous consent!
Receive our gratitude,
and by your prayers obtain the pardon of our sins.
Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven
and enable them to make our peace with God.

Holy Mary, help the miserable,
strengthen the discouraged,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for your people,
plead for the clergy,
intercede for all women consecrated to God.
May all who venerate you
feel now your help and protection.
Be ready to help us when we pray,
and bring back to us the answers to our prayers.
Make it your continual concern
to pray for the people of God,
for you were blessed by God
and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world,
who lives and reigns forever.

Amen.

Some quotes to consider:

*Through Mary, the miserable obtain Mercy, the graceless find grace, and sinners receive pardon. *- Saint Augustine of Hippo. (354 - 430)

Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the great praise we lavish on His Mother. The more Mary is honored, the greater is the glory of her Son. - Saint Bernard of Clairvaux1090 -1153

The Blessed Virgin Mary is called the Star of the Sea. Those who sail the ocean seas are guided to the port they seek by carefully observing the stars. In the same way, Christians are guided to heavenly glory by keeping their eyes on Mary. - Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274)

While remaining the mother of our Judge, Mary is a mother to us, full of mercy. She constitutes our protection. She keeps us close to Christ, and she faithfully takes the matter of our salvation into her charge. - Saint Peter Canisius (1521 - 1597)

 

[kbharbert]

As a former Protestant I completely understand what you’re going through. My family are all still Protestants and the gulf between their views on Mary and our views are striking.

Somewhere in the history of Protestantism, the importance of Our Lady was lost. Worse than that, within the hearts of some she was even looked upon with spite because she is so symbolic of the Church. In this case we cannot even lay blame upon the earliest leaders of the Reformation as Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin all mostly agreed with the Church’s view of the Blessed Virgin. Luther even wrote his own prayers for her.

Having been on the other side and viewed her as “just a woman.” I don’t know if Protestants will ever accept the truth. I know that to love our Mother has been an amazing part of conversion for me. I hope she will forgive me for my previous callous disregard of her.

The “you all worship Mary” debate is probably one of the most frequent that I’ve witnessed on this site. I’ve yet to see many responses to reason. I tend to do as some have done here and reply with deep sarcasm that, “yes you caught us, we worship statues, burn pagans, and eat kittens too.” It all becomes so ridiculous after you’ve made every rational argument from the Bible, Sacred Tradition, theology, and the early Christians that you can.

Maybe we need to try harder? I don’t know.

thank you.
it’s aways good to hear fro someone whose been on the same road.
i think what bothers ME are those who approach you APPEARING to ask honest questions yet who absolutely REFUSE to accept the truth as an answer.
what is the POINT of a conversation like that?
for TRUE seekers (like the OP) i’ll do whatever i can to clear up confusion and dispel myths. and gladly.
for the rest…well…i’m working on greater charity and patience.
about all a person can do sometimes is shrug and accept that some people just WANT to believe there’s a secret chamber beneath the local parish where clandestine rituals are held and secret and rather sleezy offerings are made.
i just think it’s so sorrowful to go through life truly BELIEVING that EVERY catholic is a liar. (or brainwashed).

 

[utunumsint]

Consider some of the following points:

• Jesus is true God and true man. Part of what we worship in Christ is his sinless humanity.
• Jesus derives his humanity from Mary.
• He was brought up by Mary. He learned from her. Much of his manners, and his behaviour must have come from her. All human children derive qualties from their parents. Jesus derived some of his qualities, attitudes, and understandings from his mother.
• She knew details about his life that no one will ever have access to. She kept them all in her heart.
• She spent thirty years of her life with Jesus. The Apostles spent three years with him.

In short, the mother of Jesus, was Mary. She was also the mother of God. She spent thirty years of her life in the presence of the second person of the Trinity. Think about that for a second. Who in history can claim this privilege? Who has ever been closer to God? Was Paul, Peter, or any one else ever as close to him as she was? We should treat her with the respect she deserves.

Ut

 

[MariaG]

Well, I am a bit awestruck! Some fantastic answers here, especially ones providing a Scriptural basis for Catholic beliefs. So a lot of things have been put to rest in my mind.:heaven: Thanks.

Also thanks for the kindness and generosity of heart to all people who have been encouraging. :hug1: There are too many posts to name you all!

Especially helpful were the reference to Genesis 28 (re:contraception), Deuteronomy (re:cherubim, serpent, etc and lifting the mind to God), “My soul magnifies the Lord” and “be it done unto me…” There is lots to read back over including some valuable information I will keep forever. You guys have filled some big holes left after RCIA, and I am actually going to print out this whole thread so I can read it all again later. Once I get a Scriptural basis for something I am happy. Where were you people during RCIA?

As for Will (the toddler), he is a bit too young for the book thing, or the money thing, which we’ve tried. He has the concentration span of a gnat! I’ll try other ideas as I read the posts more thoroughly.

SO thanks to everyone for coming through for me. I have some reading, listening, meditating and praying to do. I would also like to point out that in any Bible I had read, the word fornication had never been used (always unfaithfulness/ infidelity), so going back to the Greek was really important here, and changes everything!

Anyhow, my questions have all been answered to my satisfaction.

In gratitude and love
Dave

That is good

When you have time, you may want to pick up a Free study.

Catholic Home Study Service. At the bottom, is a study on Mary.

**CHRIST’S MOTHER AND OURS **
This course explains what the Bible says about Mary, what the Church teaches, Mary’s apparitions, how Mary relates to us in our daily lives, prayer and liturgy relating to Mary, the meaning of the Rosary, Marian sacramentals, and more. It will help you understand Catholic devotion to Mary and explain it to others.

Consider getting it. I found it helpful. Lots of scripture

I also loved studying Mary and the Ark. The typology and the scripture are absolutely wonderful. Ark of the new Covenant is from CA.

Here is another site, Scripture Catholic. It has a specific area about Mary

Scripture Catholic is a great source. I have it on my favorites

God Bless,
Maria

 

[rinkevichjm]

…
Once I get a Scriptural basis for something I am happy. Where were you people during RCIA?
…
…
Anyhow, my questions have all been answered to my satisfaction.

In gratitude and love
Dave

Never went through RCIA. Was brought in to the Church in my first fortnight on my first Easter. Religous instruction classes are lot more arduous than RCIA and often more boring too. I had to take them just after all the Vat. II reforms were brought about and the religious educators didn’t know what they should really teach on. It seemed like they would go from one extreme to the other almost contradicting themselves.

But when I went to college I found the Anglican edited version of the church fathers in English. They (the fathers) made sense although the editors’ anti-Catholic notes were incomprehensible (the fathers clearly wrote something and the Anglican editors would try to say they meant something else – not what the father was really writing on – I realized then they were trying to put their nonsensical spin on the fathers and ignored the notes)

 

[Linkowski]

It’s all about what you choose to emphasize. Who is this constant adoration and thanksgiving inclined toward? Mary says, “My soul magnifies the Lord.” To have Mary in us and through us is to magnify the LORD.

It’s not a required prayer. If you don’t like it, don’t pray it.

I write this with due respect to you and all as fellow human beings made in the image of God and with calm voice…I mentioned in my posting that I do realize that the prayer mentions the name of Jesus. But, we can’t just pull that out of the context of the prayer and then have that phrase about Jesus make everything else that is said in that prayer okay.

You are also str-r-r-r-etching things when you reference Mary’s statement about magnifying the Lord and using that to warrant such prayer TO her.

I am not required to be an idolater either but I can if I like. And the prayer that is written here, I would argue, is idolatry…

Psalm 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

Now, I realize this is speaking of hand-crafted idols but Mary has all the same attributes as they do form the standpoint of being unable to hear, for instance. Mary is not omnipresent…

A huge extrapolation is made from scripture, and I believe that I have seen it in this page of the thread that Mary was this, and Mary did that…she did this too and that too…then comes the big THEREFORE…“we can pray to her as Pope John Paul II did”. I could do the same thing with others in the Bible if I wish…I could say that Moses did a lot of great things and start praying to him as well based on a huge extrapolation. However, adding this unnecessary step in prayer (TO Mary) is, as I say, unnecessary and, in accordance with scriptural principals, idolatrous and is a show stopper for me. This was one of the huge road blocks for me in returning to the CC, not to mention issues with doctrines surrounding Justification and the role of works in the life of the believer.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

I could do the same thing with others in the Bible if I wish…I could say that Moses did a lot of great things and start praying to him as well based on a huge extrapolation.

That is a very interesting point. Why don’t Catholics pray to Old Testament saints?

 

[lak611]

That is a very interesting point. Why don’t Catholics pray to Old Testament saints?

Here is a Litany to Old Testament Saints.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Here is a Litany to Old Testament Saints.

I stand corrected. Never heard of it before.

Thanks!

 

[jmcrae]

That is a very interesting point. Why don’t Catholics pray to Old Testament saints?

Actually, we do. For example, the Carmelites often pray to St. Elijah - they even have a holy card for him.

I have sometimes asked for his intercession, too, because at one time he thought he was the last believer in God on earth, and I have sometimes felt the same way.

 

[Church_Militant]

I write this with due respect to you and all as fellow human beings made in the image of God and with calm voice…I mentioned in my posting that I do realize that the prayer mentions the name of Jesus. But, we can’t just pull that out of the context of the prayer and then have that phrase about Jesus make everything else that is said in that prayer okay.

You are also str-r-r-r-etching things when you reference Mary’s statement about magnifying the Lord and using that to warrant such prayer TO her.

I am not required to be an idolater either but I can if I like. And the prayer that is written here, I would argue, is idolatry…

Psalm 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not

: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

Now, I realize this is speaking of hand-crafted idols but Mary has all the same attributes as they do form the standpoint of being unable to hear, for instance. Mary is not omnipresent…
“hand-crafted idols but Mary”, too bad we don’t have any of those that we worship so then you might actually have a valid case.

Wishful thinking will not make it a fact though.

However, since Hebrews 12:1 calls the saints in heaven a great cloud of witnesses I will continue to maintain that that means they are aware and able to interceded for those of us still running the race looking unto Jesus. Even “witnesses” of earthly races cheer and intercede for those racing… why would the rest of the Body of Christ not do so even more since this race has such eternal consequences?

A huge extrapolation is made from scripture, and I believe that I have seen it in this page of the thread that Mary was this, and Mary did that…she did this too and that too…then comes the big THEREFORE…"we can pray to her as Pope John Paul II did

". I could do the same thing with others in the Bible if I wish…I could say that Moses did a lot of great things and start praying to him as well based on a huge extrapolation. However, adding this unnecessary step in prayer (TO Mary) is, as I say, unnecessary and, in accordance with scriptural principals, idolatrous and is a show stopper for me. That’s your problem…Why couldn’t one ask St. Moses to intercede for us? If I had to choose a guy who had his head on straight about God and lived his relationship with Him, who would I choose, you or him? But it would be the same sort of intercession either way…

Idolatrous? Poppycock! It’s not our fault that you totally misunderstand the Communion and Intercession of Saints (MP3 Bible study link)

I have yet to see a valid case against the intercession of saints presented and I have talked to a BUNCH of n-Cs over time.

This was one of the huge road blocks for me in returning to the CC, not to mention issues with doctrines surrounding Justification and the role of works in the life of the believer.

So? Having discussed some of this with you Craig, I have concluded that you don’t really want to hear facts and scripture, but only wish to preach to and proselytize Catholics.
Those of us who have talked to you come away shaking our heads because you cling so tightly to the fundamental error (namely SS) like a security blanket that you never get beyond it.

 

[jmcrae]

Now, I realize this is speaking of hand-crafted idols but Mary has all the same attributes as they do form the standpoint of being unable to hear, for instance. Mary is not omnipresent.

Heaven is not far away in outer space somewhere - it is in our hearts, with Jesus.

All of the Saints are with Jesus in our hearts, and they can hear us just fine - just as well as we can hear ourselves. Furthermore, they are not bound at the hands and feet, they are not gagged, nor blindfolded, nor is there any cotton batting stuffed in their ears. They can act, they can speak, they can do - anything they want to do, and because they are Saints, the thing they want most to do is to help us to become Saints, too.

 

[Church_Militant]

Actually, we do. For example, the Carmelites often pray to St. Elijah - they even have a holy card for him.
**
I have sometimes asked for his intercession, too, because at one time he thought he was the last believer in God on earth, and I have sometimes felt the same way**

.Tell me about it. Me too!

 

[Linkowski]

“hand-crafted idols but Mary”, too bad we don’t have any of those that we worship so then you might actually have a valid case.

Wishful thinking will not make it a fact though.

However, since Hebrews 12:1 calls the saints in heaven a great cloud of witnesses I will continue to maintain that that means they are aware and able to interceded for those of us still running the race looking unto Jesus. Even “witnesses” of earthly races cheer and intercede for those racing… why would the rest of the Body of Christ not do so even more since this race has such eternal consequences?
That’s your problem…Why couldn’t one ask St. Moses to intercede for us? If I had to choose a guy who had his head on straight about God and lived his relationship with Him, who would I choose, you or him? But it would be the same sort of intercession either way…

Idolatrous? Poppycock! It’s not our fault that you totally misunderstand the Communion and Intercession of Saints (MP3 Bible study link)

I have yet to see a valid case against the intercession of saints presented and I have talked to a BUNCH of n-Cs over time.
So? Having discussed some of this with you Craig, I have concluded that you don’t really want to hear facts and scripture, but only wish to preach to and proselytize Catholics.
Those of us who have talked to you come away shaking our heads because you cling so tightly to the fundamental error (namely SS) like a security blanket that you never get beyond it.

Thank you for your kind and gracious response to my posting.