What if you cannot reconcile your conscience with church teaching?

[jmcrae]

My opinion on this is pretty simple. I believe that the conscience is God’s way of communicating with a person.

While this is perfectly true, it’s also true that there are other voices in our minds that can drown out our conscience - a friend’s opinion, our mother’s or father’s opinion, an opinion we hear on a TV show of some kind, whether it’s a comedy or a documentary, an attitude that is portrayed or assumed in a story, something we overhear in a coffee shop, or something we’re told by a cab driver, etc., or even other people’s negative expectations of us; in one sense, they don’t approve of certain behaviour, but in another sense, if we didn’t behave that way, we would disappoint them.

That’s why it’s good to have the teachings of the Church, as a check, so that we can tell the difference between the voice of our conscience, and these other voices that can also get into our heads.

 

[catharina]

Blessedbe - Having looked at your profile and noted that you declare yourself to be wiccan, I must state that I do not respect your “religion” since my own religion and faith will never allow me to do so. Having established that so that there is nothing hidden between us, I’ll add this. God appeals to my conscience and expects me to stay true to gift of Faith (a virtue) so that my conscience is informed in accord with the will of God.

First and foremost this required that I choose God alone above all else.

 

[BlessedBe]

Blessedbe - Having looked at your profile and noted that you declare yourself to be wiccan, I must state that I do not respect your “religion” since my own religion and faith will never allow me to do so.

And that is where we part ways, for my own religion and faith utterly require me to respect the beliefs of others.

Having established that so that there is nothing hidden between us, I’ll add this. God appeals to my conscience and expects me to stay true to gift of Faith (a virtue) so that my conscience is informed in accord with the will of God.

First and foremost this required that I choose God alone above all else.

Just out of curiosity, how does God “appeal” to your conscience? Do you mean directly with a voice, intuitively, as though prayer, or via the Bible?

 

[catharina]

And that is where we part ways, for my own religion and faith utterly require me to respect the beliefs of others.

Just out of curiosity, how does God “appeal” to your conscience? Do you mean directly with a voice, intuitively, as though prayer, or via the Bible?

Most importantly (and this is where we have parted ways) my own beliefs do hold room for wiccan beliefs as a “religion” of any type. (Since its premise is anti-God, it can’t be a religion.)

Ignoring your curiousity factor, still I’ll answer regarding the actions of my conscience.

In considering an action (for example) if the action might prove to be sinful, harmful, antithetical to my faith, my conscience clicks in, chapter, verse, substance, memory, teaching, etc., each and all to inform me that an action under my consideration would be less than worthy of one who is called to worship (know, love and serve) Almighty God. No strange lights, no secret voices - simply the outcome of a living, breathing faith, the same for me as for all.

 

[BlessedBe]

Most importantly (and this is where we have parted ways) my own beliefs do hold room for wiccan beliefs as a “religion” of any type. (Since its premise is anti-God, it can’t be a religion.)

I don’t want to derail the thread, but I’m not sure where you got the idea that I or my religion are “anti-God.” It’s simply incorrect. I am neither “anti-God” in general, nor am I even anti-your God.

Of course, you have the right to your own opinion. But religion is defined as “a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a human community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience.” Like it or not, both of our belief systems fit into this category. You may have your own opinion, but you cannot change how words are defined for the rest of us!

In considering an action (for example) if the action might prove to be sinful, harmful, antithetical to my faith, my conscience clicks in, chapter, verse, substance, memory, teaching, etc., each and all to inform me that an action under my consideration would be less than worthy of one who is called to worship (know, love and serve) Almighty God. No strange lights, no secret voices - simply the outcome of a living, breathing faith, the same for me as for all.

That is a lovely and thought-provoking answer.

 

[catharina]

I don’t want to derail the thread, but I’m not sure where you got the idea that I or my religion are “anti-God.” It’s simply incorrect. I am neither “anti-God” in general, nor am I even anti-your God.

Of course, you have the right to your own opinion. But religion is defined as “a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a human community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience.” Like it or not, both of our belief systems fit into this category. You may have your own opinion, but you cannot change how words are defined for the rest of us!

That is a lovely and thought-provoking answer.

I speak of religion as practice and as virtue. Indeed the practice is based in and flows from the virtue. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (and free online to any who seek it):

2095 The theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity inform and give life to the moral virtues. Thus charity leads us to render to God what we as creatures owe him in all justice. The virtue of religion disposes us to have this attitude.

My “opinion” is more than my opinion. It is an article of my faith. The quote referenced from the Catechism can be found in this link:

209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:4A2xxmSxkG4J:www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm+catechism+of+the+catholic+church,+religion+as+virtue&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&ie=UTF-8

 

[BlessedBe]

\Thus charity leads us to render to God what we as creatures owe him in all justice. The virtue of religion disposes us to have this attitude.

My “opinion” is more than my opinion. It is an article of my faith.

If the virtue of religion causes us to have respect for and worship God, then I assure you that Wicca is a religion under that definition as well. Unless… you’re saying that religions who do not “render to God” in the same way that Catholics do, are simply not religions? If so that is a rather limited and specific use of the term; you are using it in a way that most people won’t recognize.

In any case I didn’t really come here to discuss Wicca as a religion. It is one, in the dictionary sense, the sense of common usage of the word, and the legal sense. It’s a non-issue and I don’t feel the need to defend my choices to anyone here. Rather, I posted here because I was interested in discussing what people mean by “conscience” and how people experience (for lack of a better word) their God.

 

[catharina]

Now that I know what you seek here, my understanding is enriched. You seek to understand what others mean in relation to conscience. So I have answered that question from me to you.

Nevertheless, the definition that is your preference for “religion” would suit well as a definition of the Boy Scouts, Girls Scouts, Masons, and a large variety of other groups too. As you stated: "But religion is defined as “a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a human community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience.” Come to think of it, your definition might even include the big old garden clubs in the Deep South.

You’re completely correct, your chosen defintion of religion is most definitely not one that defines religion for me. As for your preferences, you have posted here, on a Catholic site - so you can hardly be surprised to find disagreement with your view.

 

[catharina]

If the virtue of religion causes us to have respect for and worship God, then I assure you that Wicca is a religion under that definition as well. Unless… you’re saying that religions who do not “render to God” in the same way that Catholics do, are simply not religions? If so that is a rather limited and specific use of the term; you are using it in a way that most people won’t recognize.

In any case I didn’t really come here to discuss Wicca as a religion. It is one, in the dictionary sense, the sense of common usage of the word, and the legal sense. It’s a non-issue and I don’t feel the need to defend my choices to anyone here. Rather, I posted here because I was interested in discussing what people mean by “conscience” and how people experience (for lack of a better word) their God.

Two points: I hope that you’re clear that I never said we are called to “respect” God. What I said is that we are called to worship (know, love and serve) Almighty God. We are called to honor (respect) our parents though (Fourth Commandment).

Next point, many things are allowed and protected by law in the USA and yet they are NOT supported by the Catholic Church. Just another reminder - this is a Catholic site, not a site of government. There are local and federal laws that speak to conscience and yet not all such laws would cover my beliefs as a RC.

 

[BlessedBe]

Now that I know what you seek here, my understanding is enriched. You seek to understand what others mean in relation to conscience. So I have answered that question from me to you.

Nevertheless, the definition that is your preference for “religion” would suit well as a definition of the Boy Scouts, Girls Scouts, Masons, and a large variety of other groups too. As you stated: "But religion is defined as “a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a human community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience.” Come to think of it, your definition might even include the big old garden clubs in the Deep South.

I would be interested in joining any garden club that promises rituals and mystic experiences! We don’t have any of those around here…

You’re completely correct, your chosen defintion of religion is most definitely not one that defines religion for me. As for your preferences, you have posted here, on a Catholic site - so you can hardly be surprised to find disagreement with your view.

Oh, disagreement doesn’t surprise me. Flat-out saying my beliefs aren’t a religion is what does. When I use the word, I’m using it the way 99% of people do. It’s sort of like the word “cult.” Technically, all religions are cults, including both of ours, but neither of our faiths are considered so in the common usage of the term.

 

[BlessedBe]

Two points: I hope that you’re clear that I never said we are called to “respect” God. What I said is that we are called to worship (know, love and serve) Almighty God. We are called to honor (respect) our parents though (Fourth Commandment).

I understand. That is interesting. I didn’t know Catholics weren’t supposed to/expected to/asked to respect God. “Respect” is one of those words that can be difficult to define. In my faith, we do all of those things (respect, worship, know, love and serve). Perhaps to say that we “respect” God is confusing; better to say that we “behave respectfully” toward God.

 

[jmcrae]

I understand. That is interesting. I didn’t know Catholics weren’t supposed to/expected to/asked to respect God. “Respect” is one of those words that can be difficult to define. In my faith, we do all of those things (respect, worship, know, love and serve). Perhaps to say that we “respect” God is confusing; better to say that we “behave respectfully” toward God.

Are you guys going to argue about this all night? I posted some stuff on the previous page, and if you can spare a minute, I wouldn’t mind some feedback on it.

 

[catharina]

I would be interested in joining any garden club that promises rituals and mystic experiences! We don’t have any of those around here…

Oh, disagreement doesn’t surprise me. Flat-out saying my beliefs aren’t a religion is what does. When I use the word, I’m using it the way 99% of people do. It’s sort of like the word “cult.” Technically, all religions are cults, including both of ours, but neither of our faiths are considered so in the common usage of the term.

No kidding, you beieve that? I mean I grew up among 36 first cousins who are now all of an age to be grandparents. We live all over the nation and outside the nation as well. While I and my family have many many relatives, in-laws, friends and acquaintances from very diverse religious backgrounds, I’ve never met a single person who considered wicca to be a religion.

Want to let me know where you got that number: 99%?

I think your world-view is much smaller than you imagine.

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve never met a single person who considered wicca to be a religion.

Well, now you’ve met one. I’m a Catholic, and I consider it a religion. (A false one, to be sure.)

Can we get back to the subject, please?

 

[catharina]

While this is perfectly true, it’s also true that there are other voices in our minds that can drown out our conscience - a friend’s opinion, our mother’s or father’s opinion, an opinion we hear on a TV show of some kind, whether it’s a comedy or a documentary, an attitude that is portrayed or assumed in a story, something we overhear in a coffee shop, or something we’re told by a cab driver, etc., or even other people’s negative expectations of us; in one sense, they don’t approve of certain behaviour, but in another sense, if we didn’t behave that way, we would disappoint them.

That’s why it’s good to have the teachings of the Church, as a check, so that we can tell the difference between the voice of our conscience, and these other voices that can also get into our heads.

Yes, I saw this post and can agree with it without qualification.

 

[catharina]

Well, now you’ve met one. I’m a Catholic, and I consider it a religion. (A false one, to be sure.)

Can we get back to the subject, please?

Oh. Well, how do you do?

 

[jmcrae]

Oh. Well, how do you do?

Very well, thank you, and the children, too.

 

[catharina]

Very well, thank you, and the children, too.

Excellent! Yes, I noticed that you’re a catechist. Wonderful.

Stay well.

 

[Nino]

What is your opinion of the idea of putting people in jail for robbery? After all, no one is actually hurt by their crimes, and shouldn’t everyone be sharing, anyway?

If Communism had taken hold in the way that Marx thought it would, we today would be perplexed at the idea of putting people in jail for robbery - after all, everything belongs to everyone; if they felt a need to have something, no one had the right to stop them from taking it.

Marx never thought that 'communism’meant all being equal in a fair society…thats why his 'on the Jewish question’was so anti-semitic Hitler used vast parts of it as an excuse to murder 6 million innocent people! The inquistion was conducted by the state…and is called the black lie…England murdered many more Catholics when the tolerant prostestant church took over…as far as 'conscience’is concerned…thats like the babbling of a former mayor of nycity now running for president…who,thru gritted teeth,likes to proclaim…'I follow what teachings of the catholic (small C) church I feel like following…thats for sure…and like the Kennedy clan proves it! As a right-handed batter I like to run to third base after my swing for I am heading that way anyway…I like to make up my own rules also you see…oh by the way…that truck you see on the left side of the road…thats me…I also like to drive using my own rules…poor Jesus,He never was PC…never took a vote…even congratulated a company commander…ie: centurion…all the best…lets knell infront of a vets grave next chance we get for paying the ultimate sacrifice re: freedom of speech…in here anyway…

 

[jmcrae]

Marx never thought that 'communism’meant all being equal in a fair society.

He never did a day’s work in his life, either - his actual lifestyle wasn’t really my point; I was just referring to his theory of economics.