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What Is a Just Wage?
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
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Anything for you, Cruciferi! 
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Augustinian
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Depends on the definition of “urban”.
Its absolutely true that most people aren’t in the large , very densely populated cities ruled by public transport and uber.
But if you use an expanded definition of “urban”, including the residents of suburbia and the multitudes living in smaller and medium sized cities like McKeesport or Butler PA or Youngstown Ohio, you’re right. These folks aren’t on the farm, but they need cars
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Socrates92
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Nope. That is exact what I am thinking. I conceded the point that those small towns didn’t count long ago. What you are disputing right now is a strawman.
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Socrates92
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Of course not. Did you think I was planning to pay you for your thoughts? 
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Socrates92
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[quote="Augustinian, post:245, tso, how would you classify areas with 50,000 plus? Is that sufficiently urban, or should the census bureau create another subgroup for more populated (say 100,000 plus) aeas?
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Pup7
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No, what I have stated is precisely what’s in the article I posted.
It’s clear to me you have not read it - or you just don’t want to concede that you’re wrong.
The smaller towns actually DO count - most of America does not live in a major city. We don’t. You’re also not getting that there is a difference in actually living in the city limit and what zip code you live in in this country. You can have a Seattle zip and not even live within the city of Seattle. It’s not like Canadian post codes.
So saying 69% of the US lives in a city really doesn’t tell me that everyone there has public transportation (mostly because I know for a fact they don’t, but that’s neither here nor there).
Again, you’re speaking on a country you’ve never lived in, have likely never visited outside of places like NYC (and the fact that you’ve disregarded several times questions on where you have been tells me I’m probably right), and actually know nothing about besides some stats you’re reading online. None of these tell you what life is really like here.
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Pup7
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It’s actually in the wiki. There is a distinction. There’s even the possibility of breaking up the major “urban” areas into smaller areas - likely to more accurately reflect the population.
Most Americans need a car.
Most Americans do not have access to public transportation that will get them from their front door to their jobs. We just don’t. You cannot get on a train and get off at the Target or even within walking distance of Target. It’s a fact. Most people cannot take a bus to Target either - because subdivisions (where most can afford to live) don’t have bus stops, Socrates. They just don’t
Even living in the city limits I lived three miles from a grocery store and there were no sidewalks on the road. None. And yes, you have to take anecdotes here - or get out and actually visit Durham or Charlotte or some place other than NYC.
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Augustinian
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The census bureau has its own goals for assembling statistics, I don’t know what they should do.
Its just a fact that there is a lot of difference between small and medium sized cities - or even large cities like Pittsburgh, the relatively few who live in New York or Washington or LA…
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deMontfort
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Of course, most also don’t have the ridiculous cost of living that comes with living in a major city. What one saves in car payments, one loses in the elevated cost of everything else.
I couldn’t afford to live in Seattle, for example, even without the expense of a car.
I couldn’t afford to live in Seattle, for example, even without the expense of a car.
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Pup7
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Yep. And then you have places like CT and MA, which are expensive regardless of where you live. So then you have a high cost of living AND you need a car. But you still are better off because it’s still cheaper than living in the city itself. Springfield is far cheaper than Philly.
Socrates just needs to visit the rest of the US and not places like NYC and Chicago. Because that’s not how everyone lives here.
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Ridgerunner
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True in many circumstances, but a lot of those gilded age magnates went bust too. For every Rockefeller, there was probably 100 who went under.
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Socrates92
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But in order to have that discussion, we have to first address what a just wage is. I don’t think anyone on here is arguing in favour of injustice. Justice is defined as giving someone what is his due. If the value of the “living wage” is over and above the value that someone is providing through their labour, how do you argue that the employer owes the labourer that wage any more than some random guy off the street owes that wage?
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YourNameHere
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It’s not the current minimum wage in this country.
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Socrates92
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Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see a huge difference between corporations and small businesses when we’re discussing ability to support higher wages. Doesn’t it depend more on the specific business model? For example, as someone who worked in a deck and fence company, I know that the mark-up on a brand new $8,000 wood deck is fairly large. You might have $1000 in materials, $3000-4000 in labour costs, and $3000-4000 profit margin. This large mark-up is partially because of the volatility of the business model. Decks are a luxury, and the business is subject to swings in the economy. Labour costs are also approximate as each job is different. Mistakes happen, and these can be costly in terms of time to fix - increasing cost of labour. Therefore, the business needs a fairly large profit margin to operate, and can afford higher wages for competent labour to mitigate the risks. A company like Walmart, while thousands of times bigger than the average deck/fence company, is highly standardized, much less volatile, and operates on a much smaller profit margin.
The fact that Walmart has much larger financial resources to draw upon isn’t really relevant when we’re talking about a ratio expense like wages (ratio because it’s defined as cost per worker). The large number of employees that it employs cancels out the fact that Walmart has drastically higher resources. On a per-employee basis, I would actually bet that the average successful deck/fence business is wealthier.
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Socrates92
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I’ve acknowledge that the definition is skewed. I’m still not sure why you keep focussing on this though. We’ve established that these “urban clusters” are less than 10% of the pop, so not really significant when we’re talking about averages. This supports my claim that you’re anecdotal and not really addressing the actual points I’m raising. My POV may be wrong, which is one reason why I like presenting it, but you haven’t addressed it. Instead you keep focussing on these relatively small population pockets which I’ve repeatedly stated I am not talking about. Hence, my strawman claim.
I’d love to do that some day when I have time and money. However, for the argument which I actually made - and which hasn’t been addressed much less refuted yet - these 48 urban areas are precisely the most relevant areas. The urban clusters and rural areas are not.
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Cruciferi
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I oversaw a research project devoted to the Minimum Wage and the ludicrous demands by some fast food workers for $15/Hour.
The county is a patchwork of smaller local and regional economies. As a result, what works in Seattle WA won’t work in Braddock PA. $9/Hour might be okay for a teenager in Braddock; however, it wouldn’t work well in Seattle.
Ideally, I would like to see wages follow this order:
The county is a patchwork of smaller local and regional economies. As a result, what works in Seattle WA won’t work in Braddock PA. $9/Hour might be okay for a teenager in Braddock; however, it wouldn’t work well in Seattle.
Ideally, I would like to see wages follow this order:
- Federal Minimum Wage (Lowest)
- State (Equal to or Greater than Federal)
- City (Greater than Federal and State)
- Corporate (Highest)
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Socrates92
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I’d love to hear some people’s thoughts on price control, since it logically follows from wage control. Labour is a type of product purchased for its productive capacity by an employer. What about other products which we buy from businesses? Is there some kind of just price scheme? Are consumers being immoral if a business owner goes out of business and has trouble supporting his family as a result?
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Socrates92
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Hmm, not sure if you read the rest of the discussion between me and Pup7. If you did, you’d understand my meaning better. Restated, what population range should be classified as urban, in the commonly understood meaning of the term, such that the definition can not be prone to accusations of being skewed? Is the lower barrier 50,000 people, 80,000, 150,000? Once we have this parameter, we can assess what % of the US population is properly speaking urban.
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Cruciferi
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Businesses need to be competitive in Pricing, Product, Advertising, Wages ect… I have no intention of giving business to shoddy establishments or purchasing crappy products :man_shrugging:t2: The business owner must give consumers a reason to return!
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