What is the best argument to promote the TLM?

[pnewton]

Pnewton,

You can believe what you’d like but …

Thank you. I have to say that you articulated your position well and the point of disagreement well. More to the point, you accept a difference of opinion. After all, it is not the Mass we disagree on, but what constitutes heresy.

Why do I say this? I is important to learn how to disagree in peace over some things. In any parish where a TLM is being promoted and expanded, there will be such conflicts. I think it critical to dispel any semblance of a threat to other legitimate elements of Catholicism. Co-existence must be preceived as a benefit to all.

 

[stevusmagnus]

Cite your statistics. The only valid statistics I have seen show a gradual fall-off of attendance that started well before Vatican 2.

Cite your statistics and sources.

 

[EasterJoy]

Cite your statistics and sources.

Or, consider how much it really matters why attendence dropped and when. The Church does not get a do-over.

We only get to play the cards we’re holding today…which is a Holy Father who is very appreciative of the TLM, sympathetic to those who love her, and yet shows no signs of making the TLM into the OF. I cannot think of anyone who might be his successor who, from a purely practical standpoint, is likely to support the TLM more strongly than that.

IMHO, Latin will not come back in force based on statistics or argument. A prayer gains adherents for reasons of the heart. If the TLM comes back to greater use, it will come back because real ears and tongues learn to love it again through use, and in a setting that demonstrates its splendor. It will come back because it regains appreciation as a spiritual and cultural treasure.

My concern is not that the TLM will not gain popularity, but that might be damaged in any way in the process. My personal feeling is that its suppression could have been a blessing in disguise, because it was sheltered in an age of unrelenting pursuit of novelty. I do not believe for a minute that none of what has been suffered by the OF would have ever touched the EF, had it been the OF. I just don’t know of anything that has managed that in our age. You will not find many religions with adherents who love tradition like the fans of baseball, but even baseball has changed.

We aren’t out of that age yet, but it is at least becoming more true that those who love traditional things are particularly mindful to defend even the details appropriate to whatever was excellent in a particular period in time. This is not considered a far-out or extreme sentiment. We are in a time when older churches are being restored using period-appropriate paint colors and attempts are made to use period-appropriate methods of restoration. It could be a very good time to reintroduce the TLM and the communion rails to those churches, as a start. That is where the experience will start. Time will tell whether the experience will be appreciated well enough to spread again, but I think it will be the experience of the kind of liturgy and the kind of Christian behavior that seems to flow from it that will be responsible, if the TLM regains a prominent place.

I think it will be prompting the question “quo vadis?”, and how that question is answered that will make the difference. I really don’t think it will be statistics.

 

[Ockham]

Or,My personal feeling is that its suppression could have been a blessing in disguise, because it was sheltered in an age of unrelenting pursuit of novelty.

I subscribe to this theory as well. Perhaps God gave us the Novus Ordo for the rebellious to fool around with while the Mass Of Ages was protected from them. It’s easier to dumb down than smarten up so it will take generations to fix the damage done. To understand and appreciate the Mass takes time and effort which I doubt most of the Me generation is willing to do. The younger generation is the best hope to recognize the errors of their parents’ generation and correct the ‘spirit of Vatican II’.

 

[Timothysis]

Perhaps God gave us the Novus Ordo for the rebellious to fool around with while the Mass Of Ages was protected from them.

So, God “gave us” the Pauline Missal as a means of celebrating the Eucharistic liturgy to sanctify the souls of those who receive in a state of grace in order to be with Him in heaven as a gap stop to keep the “rebellious” from tinkering with the Tridentine Missal…yeah, sounds very plausible to me.

I have never seen a better example of the saying "can’t see the forest for the trees…"

 

[Ockham]

It’s just a theory Tim but it makes sense. The Jews spent forty years wandering in the dessert, Psalm 94 tells us the Lord endured “that generation” for forty years. So yes, perhaps the Novus Ordo was a blessing in disguise in order to preserve the Usus Antiquor from people like Cardinal Mahony and Rev Pflegler.

 

[Timothysis]

It’s just a theory Tim

Very true.

but it makes sense.

No, it doesn’t.

The Jews spent forty years wandering in the dessert, Psalm 94 tells us the Lord endured “that generation” for forty years. So yes, perhaps the Novus Ordo was a blessing in disguise in order to preserve the Usus Antiquor from people like Cardinal Mahony and Rev Pflegler.

Before you said God “gave us” the OF. In any event, this habit of giving human characteristics to God reminds me of someone here who once posted that “God prefers to be worshiped in the EF.”

 

[Ockham]

Ok Tim, you win. I’ll retract my statement that God gave us the Novus Ordo. The fact is Annibale Bugnini did.

 

[malphono]

Ok Tim, you win. I’ll retract my statement that God gave us the Novus Ordo. The fact is Annibale Bugnini did.

That has to be one of the best lines I’ve ever seen in this forum. Absolutely priceless! I love it!

 

[ProVobis]

It’s easier to dumb down than smarten up so it will take generations to fix the damage done. To understand and appreciate the Mass takes time and effort which I doubt most of the Me generation is willing to do. The younger generation is the best hope to recognize the errors of their parents’ generation and correct the ‘spirit of Vatican II’.

Indeed. And seeing shirts and ties and better organization coming back into the workplace are signs of better things maybe.

I’ve heard it once from a priest that people who prefer the TLM seem to be better organized in their own lives. Although this is a subjective observation, perhaps he had a point there.

 

[otjm]

The direction of the ‘pairing down’ is towards the Protestant liturgy, therefore the OF is a protestantization of the Holy Mass.

That not only is incorrect logic, it is also a failure to recognize that over time the Mass became more and more complex in its prayers and its rubrics. It can also be argued that the OF was intended to reflect the Mass prior to the additions over more recent time, and to go back to a time closer to the beginning of the Church (which of course predates Protestantism).

 

[malphono]

It can also be argued that the OF was intended to reflect the Mass prior to the additions over more recent time, and to go back to a time closer to the beginning of the Church (which of course predates Protestantism).

Yeah … and that argument has had more lives than Morris the Cat. :yawn:

Even though I prefer to avoid the OF, it’s no secret that I’m not one on the “OF is Protestant” bandwagon. But still, that argument represents antiquarianism and is kind of tired. :yawn: Plus, it really doesn’t hold much water, particularly when one thinks about Calvin, e.g., who espoused pretty much the same idea.

 

[franklinf]

Before you said God “gave us” the OF. In any event, this habit of giving human characteristics to God reminds me of someone here who once posted that “God prefers to be worshiped in the EF.”

You do realize that it isn’t unheard of for God to objectively prefer one sacrifice over another or for one offering to be more meritorious than another? For example, we have the Biblical story of Cain and Abel.

 

[otjm]

Cite your statistics and sources.

CARA has ample statistics. See their web site.

 

[Timothysis]

You do realize that it isn’t unheard of for God to objectively prefer one sacrifice over another or for one offering to be more meritorious than another? For example, we have the Biblical story of Cain and Abel.

Hardly the same thing, comparing the offering of Cain and Abel to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in any of its many various and valid liturgies.

 

[franklinf]

Hardly the same thing, comparing the offering of Cain and Abel to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in any of its many various and valid liturgies.

I was just saying that it isn’t unheard of for God to have “preferences.”

 

[franklinf]

Hardly the same thing, comparing the offering of Cain and Abel to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in any of its many various and valid liturgies.

Would you say a valid Mass celebrated in a “den of thieves” is equally pleasing to God as a valid Mass celebrated in a Church?

 

[EasterJoy]

I subscribe to this theory as well. Perhaps God gave us the Novus Ordo for the rebellious to fool around with while the Mass Of Ages was protected from them. It’s easier to dumb down than smarten up so it will take generations to fix the damage done. To understand and appreciate the Mass takes time and effort which I doubt most of the Me generation is willing to do. The younger generation is the best hope to recognize the errors of their parents’ generation and correct the ‘spirit of Vatican II’.

I would not put it quite like that. I don’t think God gave one version of the Mass for reverence and one for abuse! Heaven forbid!

It is hard to think of an analogy, but let’s try this: Shakespeare wrote in free verse and he also wrote sonnets. In an age of free verse, it is better to have a poetic medium that allows a free verse, rather than letting people determined to write free verse have at the form of the sonnet. What you wind up with in that case is not only no development of the art of free verse, but also some profoundly bad sonnets.

If you keep the form of the sonnet separate from free verse, though, then you won’t have your ear ruined by the bad free verse that is written. Rather, having heard sonnets written properly, a good ear will be better able to hear and write good free verse, and reject badly written free verse. The good free verse will have the rhthym of language that is maintained in the sonnet by rule. The sonnets will will be better-written, too, because the adherence to the rules will be natural. Both forms, after all, are at their best when they adhere to the natural melody of the language. People can forget it, but the rule of the sonnet very much follows the natural rhthyms of English at its most beautiful. Rules only make us rule-bound when we forget the natural source of the rules.

That is an imperfect analogy for a lot of reasons, but it is my belief that the two rites of the Mass, in the best case, have this natural effect on each other. In poetry, the guiding principle is meaning married to melody of language; in liturgy, reverence married to melody of ritual. The melody of ritual works differently in the two rites, and the failures seem to run in different directions.

I am not saying it is impossible to have good sonnets without free verse or good free verse without the sonnet. I do think that if we pay attention, though, and avoid taking sides too strenuously, the strengths of one will help us to avoid the potential weaknesses in the other, so that both will be at their best. IMHO, that is the best situation.

 

[Ockham]

I would not put it quite like that. I don’t think God gave one version of the Mass for reverence and one for abuse! Heaven forbid!

I’m sorry to have misquoted or misunderstood you (seems to be a lot of that going on today). However, I do hold to this idea that in an age of narcissism and rebelliousness that a secondary liturgy was created in order to protect the original.

 

[EasterJoy]

Would you say a valid Mass celebrated in a “den of thieves” is equally pleasing to God as a valid Mass celebrated in a Church?

I don’t know what this has to do with the difference between the OF and the EF. The thefts that happen in the bank and in the street are different, but exterior appearance of safety hardly means that a crime can’t take place. If anything, the banker has the opportunity to steal far more than the one who is not in a position of trust.

Another very imperfect analogy, but just to say that while the violations will differ, there is no Mass that is secure from any violations. The distinction God made between Cain and Abel was not the difference between what a farmer has to offer and what a shepherd has to offer. The difference God judged was in the heart.