What is the point of praying?

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Hey everyone, I have a question regarding prayer. Scripture says things like “ask and you shall be given”, yet we know that more often than not our prayers do not bring us closer to our goals. I thought about this for a long time and I came to somewhat of a stalemate…

God is infinitely and absolutely good, so He will do whatever is good without us asking for it. However God is infinitely and absolutely good, so He will not do anything other than what is perfectly good no matter how much we ask. This means that either our prayers are not needed or they can’t change anything. I can’t get past this point and honestly praying to God and asking for something makes me feel like a fool lately, and to be completely honest asking God for anything important for me just increases my anxiousness and fear of it failing.

Now prayer is also for building relationship with God which I understand but then that is mostly us speaking so conversation is one sided. God can show us something through Scripture or so but that is subject to my fallible perception and interpretation which ultimately means it isn’t as useful (Satan can surely manipulate emotions and give us false message too). But then I understand that prayer of this kind is in itself helpful… yet Scripture is clear that we are expected to also ask in the prayer. We for others and ourselves (even at Liturgies) yet I do not see the point.

 

[drac16]

We pray in order to get closer to God. It’s not like God needs to be prayed to; He is self-sufficient. It’s not like God is frustrated because so-and-so didn’t pray. God, in His providence, has ordained that He will respond to prayer. He wants to be worshiped because that’s why He created us.

One can hear the voice of God during prayer – it is possible. I hear God speak to me all the time. It’s usually Jesus who speaks to me, but I have heard the Father and the Holy Spirit talk to me too. They tend to sound authoritative, but also sweet. You have to be willing to lay down your own hopes and dreams in order to hear God. It doesn’t matter what I want to do with my life – it only matters what He wants. That’s why I’m content with being single and celibate.

You have to be willing to listen to God’s guidance. I suspect that many Christians are fine with asking God for something, but are reluctant to hear what He tells them. It’s like God is a plumber, 'cause you only call on Him when you need Him to fix something. Prayer is not howling to God and saying “Hey, do something quick!”.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I hear God speak to me all the time. It’s usually Jesus who speaks to me, but I have heard the Father and the Holy Spirit talk to me too.

St. Ignatius of Loyola prayed a lot and received visions. He later found out those visions are from Satan. I am not as good at discerning as St. Ignatius was, so I am not quite sure why would I risk getting deceived. If I do, God wouldn’t step in to clear my confusion which is what I mostly fear. After all many Non-Christians pray to God and they don’t suddenly get told to become Christians and they claim they hear God’s voice too (I am not implying you don’t, but that some might be deceived too). It works vice-versa too and Gid truly speaks to some people … but to risk getting deceived by Satan seems to be too high of a risk to me.

I suspect that many Christians are fine with asking God for something, but are reluctant to hear what He tells them. It’s like God is a plumber, 'cause you only call on Him when you need Him to fix something. Prayer is not howling to God and saying “Hey, do something quick!”.

You’re right about that. Do you think God punishes such behaviour? Anyway Scriptures do tell us to ask God for things which is what I can’t really understand even in situation one does not ask for himself or one does not pray only when things go wrong.

 

[drac16]

You’re right about that. Do you think God punishes such behaviour? Anyway Scriptures do tell us to ask God for things which is what I can’t really understand even in situation one does not ask for himself or one does not pray only when things go wrong.

Read Hebrews 12:4-11. God disciplines His devotees.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Read Hebrews 12:4-11. God disciplines His devotees.

As such, is it not better to not ask God when asking won’t bring us anything since God can not deny His absolute goodness but if we indeed ask we may get disciplined for trying to call God only when things go wrong?

All in all it brings me to the point that asking God for help can’t do us much good. Building relationship is logical but asking for something does not seem to be.

 

[drac16]

drac16:

Read Hebrews 12:4-11. God disciplines His devotees.

As such, is it not better to not ask God when asking won’t bring us anything since God can not deny His absolute goodness but if we indeed ask we may get disciplined for trying to call God only when things go wrong?

I am not always opposed to crying out to God for help. In countless places in the Scriptures, people pray to God in a time of desperation. God is against what He identifies as a lukewarm Christian. In the book of Revelation, chapter 3, He said to a certain church that He would spit them out of His mouth. In my opinion, there’s no worse devil than a phony religious person.

 

[Justin_Mary]

This means that either our prayers are not needed or they can’t change anything. I can’t get past this poin

At the very least, asking shows you believe God is the most high. Think about it, you wouldn’t ask Huey Lewis to watch over your family.

You ask someone who can make it happen. Whether He will or not, you know it is up to Him.

praying to God and asking for something makes me feel like a fool lately, and to be completely honest asking God for anything important for me just increases my anxiousness and fear of it failing.

Humility is the first step to right relationship with God.

Now prayer is also for building relationship with God which I understand but then that is mostly us speaking so conversation is one sided.

The first step in prayer is one sided. As you mature, you start listening. One day, by the Grace of God, you’ll do nothing but listen.

yet Scripture is clear that we are expected to also ask in the prayer. We for others and ourselves (even at Liturgies) yet I do not see the point

Yes, Jesus taught His Church how to pray. Think about that next time you experience Mass. it’s a prayer from beginning to end. I try to pattern my personal prayer on the Mass. Acknowledge the Almighty, ask for forgiveness, praise His Glory, study His Word, reflect on His Word in your life, petition, adoration.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

At the very least, asking shows you believe God is the most high. Think about it, you wouldn’t ask Huey Lewis to watch over your family.

Perhaps the first time you do… or second, third or think up some number. But if prayers are ineffective either you realize that asking is pointless and stop asking, or you only ask to show God you believe in Him (in which case it’s hypocrisy- just pray to God and tell him you believe in Him, no need to ask Him for something He can’t grant just to show your belief in Him).

The first step in prayer is one sided. As you mature, you start listening. One day, by the Grace of God, you’ll do nothing but listen.

Thank you, I hope that day will eventually come.

Yes, Jesus taught His Church how to pray.

My point is that we obviously pray not only for souls in Purgatory (in which case prayer may as well work), but also for living people such as Pope or Bishops or anyone included in Prayers of the Faithful. Why would we do that if God can’t grant our requests or He would anyway? In other words either it is good thing and God will grant it because He is all-good or it is not a good thing and He can’t grant it even if we ask.

Humility is the first step to right relationship with God.

Something I truly lack… please pray for me.

(I just realized absurdity of what I’m asking in the thread and “pray for me” request I made. I mean honestly I believe Church can’t be wrong about praying to God and asking Him for things, but I don’t get how that works which kind of impairs my personal prayers.)

 

[po18guy]

Hmmm. God created time and time frames for us. They do not apply to Him. Suppose that you suffered horribly your entire life and prayed constantly for relief - yet it never came in this life. Is that some failure of prayer? By no means!

Consider: In the next life, is there relief from all suffering for all eternity for those who pray earnestly?

It’s a matter of perception.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I am not always opposed to crying out to God for help. In countless places in the Scriptures, people pray to God in a time of desperation.

King David fasted yet that did not help him from God’s punishment. After that, King David stopped fasting and said that there is no point anymore. Yet we know that God is absolutely good- He will never do thing that is not good and will never fail to do thing that is good. Therefore if we ask God for something that isn’t absolutely good He won’t do it. If we ask God for something that is absolutely good He would do it anyway without us asking. There seems to be no point to our prayer if we ask God for something or pray for someone.

 

[tzi]

I like to imagine that prayer is like a parent listening to a young child. Young children don’t know much about the world and so talk an incredible amount about things that are normal and obvious, but a parent would lovingly listen to the child even though he/she already knows everything the child is talking about. Whether or not the child is comfortable enough pouring out his/her feelings and observations to the parent doesn’t affect how the parent would unconditionally care for the child, but there is definitely a stronger bond developed between the two when there is some form of conversation. I like to imagine that we are young children and that God is our Father (as He literally is), and that in prayer we ramble on about our concerns and petitions and God lovingly listens to us even though He already knows everything about us.

Separate from the analogy, prayer is essential because it is how we respond out of our free will to God’s invitation to an intimate relationship with Him. Like the loving Father He is, God always calls us to turn to Him, and prayer is our answer. I do see, though, the difficulty in explaining why prayer would effect an external change that wouldn’t happen otherwise…

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Hmmm. God created time and time frames for us. They do not apply to Him. Suppose that you suffered horribly your entire life and prayed constantly for relief - yet it never came in this life. Is that some failure of prayer? By no means!

Consider: In the next life, is there relief from all suffering for those who pray earnestly?

Win-win.

Well that’s true, and I don’t deny that but that also means there is no point in asking God for anything. Our free will needs to accept suffering to make it have positive effect. Therefore if God lets someone suffer repeatedly and they break (or they never repent or turn), they would theoretically not be saved despite what they have endured because only those who preserve to the end will be saved, not those who quit midway. So said person not only gets to have lifetime of suffering but also added bonus of afterlife of suffering.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I like to imagine that prayer is like a parent listening to a young child. Young children don’t know much about the world and so talk an incredible amount about things that are normal and obvious, but a parent would lovingly listen to the child even though he/she already knows everything the child is talking about. Whether or not the child is comfortable enough pouring out his/her feelings and observations to the parent doesn’t affect how the parent would unconditionally care for the child, but there is definitely a stronger bond developed between the two when there is some form of conversation. I like to imagine that we are young children and that God is our Father (as He literally is), and that in prayer we ramble on about our concerns and petitions and God lovingly listens to us even though He already knows everything about us.

I think that explains relationship part very well. My concern is largely that asking God for something in prayer or praying for someone else has no real effect.

I do see, though, the difficulty in explaining why prayer would effect an external change that wouldn’t happen otherwise…

I think we share that. I mean, I know I have to be wrong because that would actually make prayers of Saints have no effect as well. That would basically make prayers of our Lord when He asked Father for something have no effect at all.

 

[po18guy]

Just a moment, please. Prayer changes us. We need to change. Can you think of a better way to change so as to be acceptable to God; so as to cooperate with His grace?

God is pure Spirit; He is pure love; He is pure Simplicity. He is immutable, whereas we are mutable. Therefore, prayer does not and cannot change God - it can only change us.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

God is pure Spirit; He is pure love; He is pure Simplicity. He is immutable, whereas we are mutable. Therefore, prayer does not and cannot change God - it can only change us.

Hm, I think I get it now. So we ask God not to have our requests granted but to have our mind about them changed? But then what about “ask and you shall be given”? Does that mean that verse should be interpreted in way “ask for something and you shall be given clarity about it” ? So in prayer we should not ask for something or pray for someone else but ask for clarity. But if clarity is a good thing God would give that to us anyway… ?

I’m sorry for chaotic posts, I’m kind of thinking about this on the spot and trying to understand

 

[po18guy]

We ask amiss (James 4). Want to be Christ-like? Want prayers to be answered? Ask for suffering. Ask for the grace to endure suffering. It is then that we become most Christ-like. Our passion will lead to our Calvary and our Resurrection.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Have you really gone your whole life and never had a prayer of petition answered the way you hoped?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Have you really gone your whole life and never had a prayer of petition answered the way you hoped?

Oh not at all. When I pray for my intentions, it tends to be somewhat 50/50 or so (usually varies depending on how important something is to me, but technically prayers do not seem to affect the outcome). When I pray for others, it usually comes true. But was it thanks to my prayer? Did that contribute? Those are questions I am asking. In other words would those things not happen if I did not pray? God is immutable as was said. He can not change His will, so I don’t get how could we affect Him. After all God will do what is good regardless if we ask for it and will not do whats wrong regardless if we ask for it.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

This won’t answer your question 100%, but sometimes we need to change.

Like for instance, I had an interpersonal issue I prayed for a long time, but I came to see that God was changing the situation by changing me—I became more open and less reactive. In short, my previous actions were blocking the flow of grace.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

This won’t answer your question 100%, but sometimes we need to change.

Thank you. I get that. We don’t get what we want in life and we have to accept that. My question is largely based on whether it is useless to pray for those things to succeed or not. Sure, we ought to change but there are certain things that belong to us by God’s providence. We have our free will and our refusal to change is accepted by God. He desires best there is for us, but I don’t think we aren’t allowed to settle for less.

If only way asking God for something changes outcome is that it changes us, then we could as well just meditate or think about it ourselves and there would be no need to pray to God about that. If we deeply think about something we aren’t asking God without giving anything, and we are changing outcome same way. If we ask God there is always a risk of being all about asking favors and not contributing enough, as well as risk of us trying to throw responsibility away.

There is a scene in HBO’s New Pope where two Cardinals talk. First one says that “Catholics blame everything on God” and another one says “I thought we gave him credit for everything.”. First Cardinal thinks for a bit and then says “Isn’t that a same thing?”…