What is worse...religious righteous or sinners?

[rlg94086]

Wouldn’t the self righteous sinner not accept his fault of being self righteous? I know many self righteous people, and when you even hint that they are seeming to be that way, they are more offended than…you don’t want me to say.
If a person who is “acting” in a self rightous way, and realizes and accepts he is behaving that way, and repents…then that makes him a “not” self rightous person. That just means that he, like I at times, gets caught up in a conversation or attitude. But if he, like me…most of the time…is humble enough to accept constructive criticism with thanksgiving that his fault has been brought to his attention…so that he may repent and change said fault…then that makes him just a sinner…not a self rightous sinner.

The pharisees were told exactly what they were doing wrong…and Jesus did it all with gentleness and love. Not all of the pharisees were against Jesus. There were Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. They truly wanted to know God’s Will and follow it, teaching it to others. They were knowledgable, but not self righteous. They had the same Jesus…the same words from Jesus…as the others. Yet, the others had the pride of self rightousness, the “I know it all, don’t try to correct me!” And they condemned Jesus. It is really a matter of pride…in my opinion. That is what self rightousness is. It is the unwillingness to accept your own infallibility on certain subjects. It is thinking that you are better than those who “should follow your words and your examples.”

HOWEVER, I believe that stubbornly holding on to the words of Jesus, and the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church is a good thing.
If I am arguing with someone who is trying to discredit the Bible, Jesus, or the Church and/or Her teachings…I sometimes act self righteously. I refuse to admit that what I believe in is wrong. However, they are not MY own words, or MY own examples. I am refusing to accept that anyone has a valid argument against what the Bible says, that God is All Powerful and can do what ever He wills, and that the Holy Roman Catholic Church is acting on the Will of God through the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit.

In my opinion, that is not self rightousness. That is acting on the beliefs of my faith. And anyone who comes on to the CAF, to debate the beliefs of Catholic Christians in order to try to discredit the Church or Jesus, is asking for people to stubbornly stand up and fight against their attacks on our Jesus, and our Faith. That we may act self rightously is a hazard, to be sure…but we have the Truth…which is not ourselves, but our Faith, and we have to defend it.

I am wondering if I am getting my point across. Anyone have a better way to say it? Much appreciated.
God bless you all,
Cherie

Hi Cherie,

This is the exact problem with categorizing someone as “self-righteous.” I read Philippians on my flight this morning and a couple of passages reminded me of this thread.
Philippians 1:

15
Of course, some preach Christ from envy and rivalry, others from good will. 16 The latter act out of love, aware that I am here for the defense of the gospel; 17 the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not from pure motives, thinking that they will cause me trouble in my imprisonment. 18 What difference does it make, as long as in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed? And in that I rejoice. 9 Indeed I shall continue to rejoice,

Philippians 2:

1 1 If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. 3 Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, 4 each looking out not for his own interests, but (also) everyone for those of others.

As you mentioned, we all can fall victim to being “self-righteous.” We all need to act out of humility. However, what I have been trying to get across is that when we categorize some of our fellow Christians as “self-righteous” by judging their actions/words and then say - I think they are worse off then your average, run-of-the-mill sinner, we are not acting out of humility.

I think the best course is to follow the words of Our Lord and those of St. Paul above when he says to “humbly regard others as more important than yourselves.”

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Oxymoron? while we’re at it, try this one:
If education fails to make a pharisee, try ignorance. There are a lot educated ignoramuses out there.

Thanks for no answer

 

[ted_emard]

don,t you mean the self rightouse

 

[theistgal]

exactly what i was thinking. I also feel that I started to turn to my rituals, routines and disciplines instead of just turning completely toward my God.

I do totally understand that and sympathize. I’m going through something like that right now. I think sometimes we do tend to get caught up in “going through the motions” rather than focusing on Christ.

 

[fhansen]

There’s nothing wrong in believing that your particular faith has the fullness of the truth while another doesn’t. This should be a matter of discernment rather than arrogance and the condemnation towards others that goes with it.

One question should be, “Does our faith produce humility in us or pride?” A self-or man-centered righteousness is pride. Because this is a mark of the fall which exists in us all, we can manage to remain in this state-unchanged- whether or not we’re a church member. God-centered righteousness, meaning that our hearts are truly turned towards Him, should always result in increasing humility in us.

 

[Chancellare]

Aren’t you stating a bit of a oxymoron here? Pharisees were those who were well taught in the law, they just failed to understand the the purpose behind the law in many cases and worhshiped form over actual substance. Those who are uneducated can hardly suffer from this since they are not knowledgeable in the law in the first place.

Also exactly what do you mean by “properly” educated? Is that some standard you define?

Sorry, I under estimated it.

The logic I am following is:
True education produces people who understand the law and who can distinguish substance from form including various levels of contextual meanings.
Pharisees as described in the Bible failed to live up to this metrics.
Therefore they were not ‘properly’ educated, even as an under-statement. To insist that the Pharisees were paragon of true education speaks of one’s own educational level.
This is my point.

Fast forward today:
Still there are more supposedly ‘educated’ people nowadays who judge others without understanding. As such their existence prove the point.

 

[Brian_Millar]

religious righteous in the context of they being equal to the hypocrytes and not righteous are far worse, yet keep in mind the context I place this within. They turn away other’s and lead them astray from the church, they misrepresent the church and the faith causing it to be looked upon with distain in the eyes of the unbeliever. They place a wedge between potential souls that desire to join the church. This is happening in all faiths, all denominations, world wide.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

religious righteous in the context of they being equal to the hypocrytes and not righteous are far worse, yet keep in mind the context I place this within. They turn away other’s and lead them astray from the church, they misrepresent the church and the faith causing it to be looked upon with distain in the eyes of the unbeliever. They place a wedge between potential souls that desire to join the church. This is happening in all faiths, all denominations, world wide.

The “sinner” knows in his heart that he is wrong, and hopefully sooner or later he will humbly come in search of the truth. The problem with the religious self rightous person is that he knows that his teaching is right…but doesn’t realize how much harm he is doing to the conversion of the sinner by being so harsh in his attitude of being so judgemental, while acting as though he thinks he is a better person because his words are correct. He begins to judge the person and not the act of sin, and loses the love he is supposed to show to the sinner.

 

[suupah]

He begins to judge the person and not the act of sin, and loses the love he is supposed to show to the sinner.

this is a slippery slope for me. i work amongst people who live very sexually amoral lives. I don’t judge them as i truly truly think they are really good people. In fact I would say outside of sexual immorality I would put them on par if not on a higher level of moral character than many of my christian brethren. The problem lies in, appearing to condone these activities because i do socialize with them.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

this is a slippery slope for me. i work amongst people who live very sexually amoral lives. I don’t judge them as i truly truly think they are really good people. In fact I would say outside of sexual immorality I would put them on par if not on a higher level of moral character than many of my christian brethren. The problem lies in, appearing to condone these activities because i do socialize with them.

We are called to hate the sin, yet love the sinner…that they may be led to conversion. To be like Jesus we must love them even while they are in sin…but never to condone or even attempt to portray an attitude of condoning the sin. How do we accomplish that? Very good question. I don’t have the answer. It is difficult sometimes to witness to people without coming across as being self righteous…even when we are NOT being so…because they become so defensive and begin an attack on our beliefs. That is why it is difficult. The only thing I might suggest is go to them with the Bible versus which condemn the sin…also with the ones offering salvation and love to the sinner…and let it be Christ’s words that convict them…not your own. That way, hopefully no one will be able to claim that you are the one arguing. If they argue, it will be against the words of Christ Jesus, not you. You would be just the vessel that Christ could work through.

One more thing I want to add. There is no such thing as something being moral without it involving Christ. He is very specific. We must love Him, and follow Him, and believe in Him, and accept Him. No matter how wonderful a person we are, if we do it all, yet reject Him, there is no accounting for it. On the day of Judgement He will look at us and say, I didn’t know you.
In the Bible He tells us that on that day there will be those who say to Him, “But we fed the poor, we cared for the sick, we cast out demons in your name.” And he will answer them, “I do not know you, depart from me.” If we do all of those things, yet do not have a personal relationship with Him, if we do not confess Him before anyone, if we do not do our best to follow Him in all that we do, He will not know us…no matter how good a person we are.

That’s a hard pill to swallow. I know people that are wonderful people, but I know…because Christ says so…that if they don’t accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, He will not accept them into Heaven. It hurts me, because I want them to be with me in Heaven. So, Christ gave me the responsibility to pray for their conversion and then do what I can to help them to come to Himself.

I hope this helps.

 

[suupah]

It is difficult sometimes to witness to people without coming across as being self righteous…even when we are NOT being so…because they become so defensive and begin an attack on our beliefs.

This is what often times happens.

Another reason it is difficult is because I feel that inside I am really not a whole lot different than they are. The only real difference is that they act on their passions and I don’t. But at the core of either of us, there is really little difference. So in the final analysis I am really no better than they are therefore I find it difficult to comment upon their sinful lives as I may someday slip into sin from time to time as well.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

This is what often times happens.

Another reason it is difficult is because I feel that inside I am really not a whole lot different than they are. The only real difference is that they act on their passions and I don’t. But at the core of either of us, there is really little difference. So in the final analysis I am really no better than they are therefore I find it difficult to comment upon their sinful lives as I may someday slip into sin from time to time as well.

The difference is great. You do your best most of the time not to act on immoral passions. Do they make the effort?
I didn’t say you are a better person, because that would be judging them. I am big on the statement…“But for the grace of God, there go I.”
I have walked the pathways of sin, myself. Had someone stood there screaming at me about how horrible a person I was, I may never have gotten home. I had people who didn’t fudge the truth…I was sinning, and they weren’t about to let me think that was alright. But they welcomed me home, and I realized how liberating it was to walk on the pathways of righteousness rather than of sin. They walked in Truth, and that was truthfully the most appealing thing I had ever known.
We are called to love, and by example show that Jesus is real. And we are called to gently lead them to Christ. Prayer is a very useful tool. We pray for someone, and God increases the amount of calling He does for to the people we are praying for.

 

[Brian_Millar]

This is what often times happens.

Another reason it is difficult is because I feel that inside I am really not a whole lot different than they are. The only real difference is that they act on their passions and I don’t. But at the core of either of us, there is really little difference. So in the final analysis I am really no better than they are therefore I find it difficult to comment upon their sinful lives as I may someday slip into sin from time to time as well.

I find it frustrating, knowing full well what I experience, what I feel in my heart, I so much would like to share with everybody, particularly the non believer. It’s like you have won the lottery and are wanting to give away some of your money to charity, yet the charity is refusing to accept it. We are genuin with our intentions, we have nothing to personally gain in this matter, it doesn’t make us more worthy in God’s eyes, as in we have to do this task to earn our way into his grace and salvation. I found much of the time, all you can do is plant the seed and hope it finds a way to flourish in their lives eventually. Those times when you get to actually see it fruit are precious, the rest of the time, we can only rely upon faith and know we at least tried.

I then compare this to someone of the world, where the worlds ways are selfish, it never extends to these non believers what is extended through God to them, they are in contrast of each other. The world cares nothing for the individual, yet God loves them to the core of their being regardless of their faith, or lack therin. The concept is alien to the worlds ideals, this is why these people automatically go into a defensive mode, they are still thinking along a worldly context, which in it’s mindset, you never actually receive something for nothing, there is always a catch and always strings attached so they become suspicious.

 

[HappyPerson]

Defending the Roman Catholic Church and Her doctrines is NOT self-righteousness, but defending the truth. We wouldn’t be defending doctrines that we as individuals arrived at or can take personal credit for, but would be defending the very truth that was revealed to the Apostles, and passed on, unchanged throughout the history of the Church.

If the original question was meant in terms of self-righteousness in terms of our attitude towards ourselves in comparison to other devout Catholics, or compared to non-Catholics, then that is the sin of pride, rather than a defense of the truth. We must leave that judgment to God as to how it would compare with other sins. We have no right to condemn others to Hell, though, regardless of how deplorable their sins may be, or what their religion is.(See Paragraph 847 of the Catechism.) Such judgment is reserved for God.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Defending the Roman Catholic Church and Her doctrines is NOT self-righteousness, but defending the truth. We wouldn’t be defending doctrines that we as individuals arrived at or can take personal credit for, but would be defending the very truth that was revealed to the Apostles, and passed on, unchanged throughout the history of the Church.

If the original question was meant in terms of self-righteousness in terms of our attitude towards ourselves in comparison to other devout Catholics, or compared to non-Catholics, then that is the sin of pride, rather than a defense of the truth. We must leave that judgment to God as to how it would compare with other sins. We have no right to condemn others to Hell, though, regardless of how deplorable their sins may be, or what their religion is.(See Paragraph 847 of the Catechism.) Such judgment is reserved for God.

 

[nannygirl]

Hi Cherie,

This is the exact problem with categorizing someone as “self-righteous.” I read Philippians on my flight this morning and a couple of passages reminded me of this thread.

As you mentioned, we all can fall victim to being “self-righteous.” We all need to act out of humility. However, what I have been trying to get across is that when we categorize some of our fellow Christians as “self-righteous” by judging their actions/words and then say - I think they are worse off then your average, run-of-the-mill sinner, we are not acting out of humility.

I think the best course is to follow the words of Our Lord and those of St. Paul above when he says to “humbly regard others as more important than yourselves.”

Good post!

 

[Pastor_Jim]

You can’t be both pharisaic and righteous - it’s a contradiction in terms. Pharisaism means SEEMING righteousness. As you say, the appearances and externals of piety with nothing inside. A whitewashed sepulchre with no life or real holiness within, just dead men’s bones.

Pharisees *are *sinners like any other sinners, who don’t look like sinners on the outside, as lots of other sinners don’t either. So the distinction is somewhat meaningless.

I wonder why Jesus commended them for keeping the law, then.

 

[Pro_Domina]

The thing is that the Pharisees commited the same sins as the tax collectors. They did the same as the public women.
They adored idols like the pagans (some prophet complained about the underground tunnels with satanic altars)

What was the difference?

Ones accepted it and others not only did not but pretended to be holier than God.

That is why I sustain it is easier for a progressivist to become a saint than the traditionalists.

 

[rlg94086]

That is why I sustain it is easier for a progressivist to become a saint than the traditionalists.

Really? Which group goes to Confession more often? Based on the lines for Confession, I would say that traditionalists do. Why is that? Are progressivists free from sin?

As I posted previously, the two groups succumb equally to pride. Some progressivists know they are right and become very self-righteous…especially in their condemnation of traditionalists. How is that any different than a traditionalist who is self-righteous in their condemnation of progressivists?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

The thing is that the Pharisees commited the same sins as the tax collectors. They did the same as the public women.
They adored idols like the pagans (some prophet complained about the underground tunnels with satanic altars)

What was the difference?

Ones accepted it and others not only did not but pretended to be holier than God.

That is why I sustain it is easier for a progressivist to become a saint than the traditionalists.

How is it that you take self rightousness to mean traditionalists and pious to mean progressivist? That makes no sense.