What is your favorite proof for God?

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The lunacy of “mass suicides” have nothing to do with the cruel deaths inflicted on the followers of Jesus. Neither do fanatical hallucinations.

You miss the point on miracles completely – the miracle of the sun at Fatima was witnessed by thousands and reluctantly attested to by an atheist, and promised by the Blessed Mother.

Jesus of Nazareth made claims that only God can claim – the Judge of all mankind (Mt 25:31-46). The “Son of Man” is a Messianic title (Dan 7:13-14). He claimed to be God the Lawgiver (Mt 12:8), (Mt 5:21-22; vv. 28, 32,34,39,44.
For starters.
 
The lunacy of “mass suicides” have nothing to do with the cruel deaths inflicted on the followers of Jesus. Neither do fanatical hallucinations
You miss the point on miracles completely – the miracle of the sun at Fatima was witnessed by thousands and reluctantly attested to by an atheist, and promised by the Blessed Mother. .
They still were willing to sacrifice themselves for a “belief”, the same as your martyrs, who also died for a “belief”.
As for “fanatical hallucinations” why should you consider all other religious miracles as such but not your Church’s ones?
Jesus of Nazareth made claims that only God can claim – the Judge of all mankind (Mt 25:31-46). The “Son of Man” is a Messianic title (Dan 7:13-14). He claimed to be God the Lawgiver (Mt 12:8), (Mt 5:21-22; vv. 28, 32,34,39,44.
For starters.
For your quote of Mt 25 I give you Jn.8:15. Your Mt 12 is a teaching on the day of rest, that man is in control of the day and not the day in control of man. As to your interpretation of Mt 5 you have 2 choices - either Jesus went against his Father’s commands or he explained the proper interpretation of those commands. Any more quotes?
 
avflf

*Just to follow up on your first post; can you show me in the Bible where Jesus says he is God in those words? Not “my Father and I are one” and Thomas “my Lord and my God” ? The first can mean anything and the second was not spoken by Christ and could be just an expression of amazement, like we say “good lord!” or “good heavens!” This, of course, assuming the written record is accurate. *

You call yourself a believer.

Exactly what do you believe in? Are you a Christian, Unitarian, Buddhist, Muslim, etc? It would help to know so that we can move this dialogue along.

By the way, this thread is about proofs for God, not about the divinity of Christ. Recent posts seem to be extremely personal, autobiographical, and not at all on target.

Thanks.
 
Alflf
Choosing “not to know” reality is your curse.
On the Gospels, no one has been able to break their historicity, yet you fantasise that one or more main points could be false – without any evidence.
You might listen to that great convert John Henry Cardinal Newman: With an unhealthy doubt, “a person suspends judgment even when the evidence is conclusive and completely adequate. This is skepticism, intellectual cowardice……A difficulty is a problem, a not-seeing how two realities fit together….a situation we do not yet understand and perhaps will never understand. It is a limitation on our knowledge, a passing or permanent limitation.”
John Henry Cardinal Newman said “ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, as I understand the subject; difficulty and doubt are incommensurate.” (Apologia pro vita Sua). [Fr Dubay, *Faith And Certitude
, Ignatius Press, 1995, p 82-4].

To continue with the mirage that the eyewitnesses did not give the words of Jesus, but yet died for Him because they believed Him and saw His divinity expressed in His Resurrection, belies sanity.

Perhaps you haven’t heard of miracles. But you didn’t have to be a Catholic to experience this one:
Eyewitnesses in the modern era saw, and it is historically recorded, the miracle of the sun at Fatima:
As Avelino deAlmeida, the chief editor of “O Seculo,” the large “liberal” anticlerical and masonic daily of Lisbon, writes:

Before the dazzled eyes of the people, whose attitude transported us to biblical times, and who, dumb-founded, heads uncovered, contemplated the blue of the sky, the sun trembled, it mad estrange and abrupt movements, outside of all cosmic laws, “the sun danced”, according to the typical expression of the peasants…(2)"

Attacked violently by all the anticlerical press, Avelino de Almeida renewed his testimony, fifteen days later, in his review, l “Ilustra‡ao Portuguesa”. This time he illustrated his account with a dozen photographs of the huge ecstatic crowd, and repeated as a refrain throughout his article: “I saw…I saw…I saw.” And he concluded fortuitously: "Miracle, as the people shouted? Natural phenomenon, as the experts say? For the moment, that does not concern me, I am only saying what I saw… The rest is a matter for Science and the Church.” (3) [My emphasis].
Note:
2) O Seculo of October 15, 1917.
3) Article of October 29, 1917.

I can give you a curious account of this “miracle of the sun” phenomenon. When my dad met my mum, during the sixties, in a city in southern Portugal called Beja, they would often stroll by a park. My mum got intrigued by an old man who prayed the rosary everyday while staying by his window. My dad happened to know the old man and some day he introduced them. Well, his account of the miracle was moving. He had gone to Fátima for the single purpose of laughing at the peasants there. He was a young adult in 1917, and he had an attitude that, at the time, was thought to be “progressive” in Portugal, especially in the South; contempt for Catholicism was mandatory. The problem was - he got overwhelmed by the “miracle” and, as he told my mother, from that day on not a single day passed without him praying the rosary, in obedience to what the Virgin Mary told the little shepherds. Now, it must have been an very strong experience for such a radical change of mindset. People are very fond of their a priori beliefs. But that young man changed. Another curious thing was that he died shortly after, of natural causes, while my parents were still in Beja. It was a 13th of May. The bottom line is: you can be a Catholic without believing any of this. But it still makes you thing about whether this intricate, complicated and beautiful thing we call Catholicism isn’t true after all. As a note, my beloved father died more than twenty years ago; my mother is alive and very well; she’s in her early seventies and I hope to have her with me and my brothers for another twenty years - at the very least!
 
It does not mean that one cannot question and if there are “ten thousand difficulties” it lends weight to the questioning. The attitude of unquestionly “belief” in something that is riddle with inconsistencies is IMO not conducive to get to the truth.

Martyrdom is not a RC phenomenon alone. Cults have committed mass suicides for what they “believed”

Miracles are unexplained phenomena and again not exclusive to the Christian faith. Many Holy men have had miracles attributed to them, Sri Baba from India comes to mind as a, still living, miracle maker.

Just to follow up on your first post; can you show me in the Bible where Jesus says he is God in those words? Not “my Father and I are one” and Thomas “my Lord and my God” ? The first can mean anything and the second was not spoken by Christ and could be just an expression of amazement, like we say “good lord!” or “good heavens!” This, of course, assuming the written record is accurate.
Regarding the “miracle of the sun” in Fátima in 1917, two aspects stand out when you compare it with other “miracles” or hallucinations. First, it was promised; as I have noted in another post, it actually drew people with an interest in discrediting the supposed sightings of the Virgin Mary and the angels. Second, there was a huge amount of people there, in the order of tens of thousands. These two essentially undisputed facts imply that the phenomenon cannot be discounted, as often happens, on lunacy of individual people. Collective hallucination also does not seem appropriate because there were actual sceptics there. It was all very, very unusual.
 
Miracle of the Sun at Fatima 1917.

Lucia shouted “LOOK AT THE SUN”

It turned from a blinding gold to a dull silver. It began to dance in the sky. It twirled uncertainly on its axis. Then it began to descend on the people.

It grew bigger and bigger as it came down on them.

Streaks of varied colors shot out like sparks from a wheel, covering the people, causing changes of color on their faces and clothes.

Reds, yellows, blues, greens hurled down onto the little Cova.

“IT’S THE END OF THE WORLD” “FORGIVE ME MY SINS”.

There were reports of open confessions, shouted at the top of the lungs of the sinners.

They thought the Lord was taking His final vengeance on them.

And then it stopped.

A command was given from Heaven; the sun moved slowly back, up into the sky. It returned to its proper place in the atmosphere, and at once turned from dull to brilliant. The pilgrims could not look directly into it again. A great hush took place on earth. The 70,000 were stunned. They had been saved, but they weren’t quite certain about it yet. Then they began to look around them. Their clothes, soaking wet moments before, were completely dry.

The mud which had caked on them, was gone. They were clean.

Then from various parts of the assemblage, voices rang out, “I CAN WALK!!” “I CAN SEE!” The blind opened their eyes; the lame threw down their crutches.

Others went down on their knees in tears of reconciliation. Mass miracles, cures and conversions took place in a period of minutes.

And the greatest miracle of all is THE HOLY MASS!

God Bless!
 
I can give you a curious account of this “miracle of the sun” phenomenon. When my dad met my mum, during the sixties, in a city in southern Portugal called Beja, they would often stroll by a park. My mum got intrigued by an old man who prayed the rosary everyday while staying by his window. My dad happened to know the old man and some day he introduced them. Well, his account of the miracle was moving. He had gone to Fátima for the single purpose of laughing at the peasants there. He was a young adult in 1917, and he had an attitude that, at the time, was thought to be “progressive” in Portugal, especially in the South; contempt for Catholicism was mandatory. The problem was - he got overwhelmed by the “miracle” and, as he told my mother, from that day on not a single day passed without him praying the rosary, in obedience to what the Virgin Mary told the little shepherds. Now, it must have been an very strong experience for such a radical change of mindset. People are very fond of their a priori beliefs. But that young man changed. Another curious thing was that he died shortly after, of natural causes, while my parents were still in Beja. It was a 13th of May. The bottom line is: you can be a Catholic without believing any of this. But it still makes you thing about whether this intricate, complicated and beautiful thing we call Catholicism isn’t true after all. As a note, my beloved father died more than twenty years ago; my mother is alive and very well; she’s in her early seventies and I hope to have her with me and my brothers for another twenty years - at the very least!
I do not deny miracles, apparitions and other phenomena as not having occured. Crop Circles, UFOs fall basically under the same heading. We just don’t know what causes them but we can attribute them to a miriad of things including the direct intervention of the gods.
“O milagre do Sol” at Fátima is given a brief description in Wikipedia and it might be of interest to some to read the article - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun - including the various explanations given.
 
Just if we simply sit quietly and think about the human body and the various internal organs which are working with amazing sync. One cannot think about the complicated processes going within our own body and the way reacts and counter reacts to various external stimulus. All this prove that it is not an accident but designed by some super intelligent being which we call God.

aloy
 
Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God
In post #291, we have seen conclusively that:
  1. Jesus claimed to be the Judge of all mankind
  2. Jesus claimed to be God the Lawgiver
Jesus claimed divine prerogatives: (Jn 8:57-58; Jn 5:22-23; Jn 3:18; 10:9; Jn 15:1; Jn 14:6; Jn 17:5,10,19).
The Jews recognised that Jesus claimed to be God: (Jn 10:30-33; Jn 5:17-21; Jn 19:7).
 
Hello,

Proof for the existence for the god is that god is in every human being.

Thanks
MikeWilson
 
avflf
*
I do not deny miracles, apparitions and other phenomena as not having occured. Crop Circles, UFOs fall basically under the same heading. We just don’t know what causes them but we can attribute them to a miriad of things including the direct intervention of the gods. *

Again, which gods do you believe in? What is your favorite proof that they exist?
 
You dishonor your own intelligence, however limited, by making absurd statements.
And yet you ought to acknowledge that the scientific method (roughly speaking, the controlled repetition of an experiment in order to confirm or infirm an hypothesis) is not a product of Renaissance or the Enlightment, but the most distinguished offspring of the medieval European monastery. What we call (wrongly I might add) the Middle Ages (or even more absurdly the Dark Ages) were times of discovery, of empiricism, of experimentation, of intellectual exchange across Europe. Scholars (but not peasants) could move freely from France to Spain, from Portugal to the Netherlands, from England to Italy, etc. The scientific community was small but brilliant and inquisitive. But acknowledging this is equivalent to recognizing the obvious: the important role of the Church in the development of what we call today Science. Modern secularists just aren’t prepared to do that. The Middle Ages had their bad moments (plagues, feudal wars, the odd philosopher burned at the stake, etc.); but we, in contemporary times, have seen some of the worst man-induced carnages of history and no one appears to think that a man looking at us 500 hundred years hence will find it hard to distinguish us from our ancestors 800 hundred or 1000 years ago. And I honestly think he will take us for barbarians: our ancestors were unable to deal with the plague, for instance; but we have in theory the tools to provide a decent lifestyle to everyone and instead we explore and kill people like us, and squander the resources of the planet.

You should also note that, while Galileo’s disputes with part of the Vatican establishment were probably motivated by envy (as attested by the fact that a large part of the clergy espoused the Heliocentric view, including of course the great Copernicus), he died as the pious and devout Catholic he had been his entire life. As someone puts it,

“Galileo, a sincere believer, showed himself to be more perceptive regarding scriptural interpretation than the theologians who opposed him”.
The Church did not embrace me with open arms when I was a member thereof, and accepted its teachings. My parents had insufficient money to interest the local priesthood, and zero political clout. I don’t see you as a credible spokesman for Vatican interests.
Sorry to hear that. My story lies on the opposite side. The nice thing about Catholicism is, I believe, that you are as likely (or probably more likely) to be saved than me. Just sincerely repent, forgive, and move on.

Best wishes, my friend.
 
I do not deny miracles, apparitions and other phenomena as not having occured. Crop Circles, UFOs fall basically under the same heading. We just don’t know what causes them but we can attribute them to a miriad of things including the direct intervention of the gods.
“O milagre do Sol” at Fátima is given a brief description in Wikipedia and it might be of interest to some to read the article - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun - including the various explanations given.
The wikipedia account of the miracle is quite fair. One of the things that the old man I mentioned before told my parents was the sudden drying of people’s wet clothes, as well as the rain-soaked soil. More generally, while none of the various natural explanations given is really convincing, there’s always the possibility that those events were an incredible succession of unlikely events. This allows people of faith and unbelievers alike to freely decide whether the “miracle of the sun” was natural or supernatural. In this respect things have not changed much since Jesus’ time.
 
avflf
*
I do not deny miracles, apparitions and other phenomena as not having occured. Crop Circles, UFOs fall basically under the same heading. We just don’t know what causes them but we can attribute them to a miriad of things including the direct intervention of the gods. *

Again, which gods do you believe in? What is your favorite proof that they exist?
My concept of the deity that most people call god is of a ‘sentient’ force/energy that is present throughout this universe and one that we can tap into to effect change, even be able to produce supernatural effects. However, this force is neutral and can be used for both good and evil. It is possible that its primary (or only) function is to create but its power is such that can provide other sentient beings with similar powers were they sufficiently developed to use such power. If this energy existed from the beginning is impossible to say and should multiple universes be a reality it is possible that other similar forms of energy, each in its own universe, may also exist. Who knows for sure?
Perhaps greylorn believes much the same as I do.
I can agree with Mike Wilson that god is in all of us but I’d go further and say that god is in all living organisms including plants.
You ask for proof? Belief does not require proof, but as I cannot accept the gods that mankind has formed in their own image as per all the “holy” books floating around I made my very own.
 
Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God
Following posts #291, 299 –
5) Jesus claimed to be Omnipotent, a Divine Person, God the Son, equal in power to the Father: (Mt 28:18; Lk 10:22)
6) Jesus claimed to be God the Son, one in nature with the Father (Mt 16: 13-17; Lk 10:22; Mt 11:27; Mt 3:17; Lk 20:13-16; Mt 14:61-64; Mt 26:63-66)
 
My concept of the deity that most people call god is of a ‘sentient’ force/energy that is present throughout this universe and one that we can tap into to effect change, even be able to produce supernatural effects. However, this force is neutral and can be used for both good and evil. It is possible that its primary (or only) function is to create but its power is such that can provide other sentient beings with similar powers were they sufficiently developed to use such power. If this energy existed from the beginning is impossible to say and should multiple universes be a reality it is possible that other similar forms of energy, each in its own universe, may also exist. Who knows for sure?

Perhaps greylorn believes much the same as I do.
.
Sorry, no. Although it would be nice to agree with someone for a change.

My ideas began similarly to yours, about 50 years ago. The idea of God as an energy-being was something I made up back then, fresh out of physics class, only to discover in the 80’s that the New Age religion movement had co-opted it. That was my first clue that the concept was not going to work. Ultimately it did not, for the same logical problem faced, but not solved, by Big Bang theory.

Ultimately, you might get along okay with my ideas if you are careful to evaluate them in the context of whatever logic might get supplied with the presentation.
 
Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God
Following posts #291, 299 –
5) Jesus claimed to be Omnipotent, a Divine Person, God the Son, equal in power to the Father: (Mt 28:18; Lk 10:22)
6) Jesus claimed to be God the Son, one in nature with the Father (Mt 16: 13-17; Lk 10:22; Mt 11:27; Mt 3:17; Lk 20:13-16; Mt 14:61-64; Mt 26:63-66)
(Mat 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power **is given **unto me in heaven and in earth.
(Luk 10:22) All things **are delivered to me **of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
(Mat 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. - NOT GOD THE SON; same as (Luk 3:38) Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Mt 14:61-64 ???
(Mat 26:63) But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. “the Christ” = the Anointed one, the Messiah they were waiting for a HUMAN BEING
(Mat 26:64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the **Son of man **sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. - Christus in his “resurrected form”, still Human.
 
.

Ultimately, you might get along okay with my ideas if you are careful to evaluate them in the context of whatever logic might get supplied with the presentation.
Probably, I’m open to new ideas. Let me know your concept and I’ll ponder on it.
 
My concept of the deity that most people call god is of a ‘sentient’ force/energy that is present throughout this universe and one that we can tap into to effect change, even be able to produce supernatural effects. However, this force is neutral and can be used for both good and evil. It is possible that its primary (or only) function is to create but its power is such that can provide other sentient beings with similar powers were they sufficiently developed to use such power. If this energy existed from the beginning is impossible to say and should multiple universes be a reality it is possible that other similar forms of energy, each in its own universe, may also exist. Who knows for sure?
Perhaps greylorn believes much the same as I do.
I can agree with Mike Wilson that god is in all of us but I’d go further and say that god is in all living organisms including plants.
You ask for proof? Belief does not require proof, but as I cannot accept the gods that mankind has formed in their own image as per all the “holy” books floating around I made my very own.
Actually, this sounds very Lucasian. Are you a Lucasian?
 
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