What must I do to be saved?

[PRmerger]

I do agree that sayng - “Ask Jesus into your heart.” or “Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.” certainly isn’t the biblical answer. It’s far to vague.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes. It was, with the help of the Holy Spirit of course.

Of course.

But if a leader goes against His word I believe we are to obey God first.

How is it that you know what God has said, if it weren’t for these “leaders”–Catholic bishops–who discerned for you in the 4th century exactly what was God’s Word? This decision was affirmed and re-affirmed at the Councils of Rome, Hippo, Carthage and, then finally dogmatically declared at the Council of Trent.

It is the “ekklēsia”, the body of believers. They worship in spirit and in truth where ever God has them whether it be a catholic church, protestant church, huddled in fear of persecution in their homes, out in the trenches, etc… They proclaim the gospel (good news being that we are saved by grace through faith) of Christ Jesus and His Kingdom and hope that is in Him.

Can one be a member of this church if he denies the Resurrection?

What about if he isn’t baptized?

And how do you know what’s the correct answer to the above? What bible verses tell you?

 

[Julia_Mae]

Thank you for explaining so well what the church believes and explaining the sacraments as well. It’s quite long list of to dos PHEW! While I still do not understand how it is not in conflict with what other scriptures say about salvation (especally Eph 2:1-10)… .

Possibly this is because you are not very familiar with the Gospels and the words of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Or perhaps it is because you quote Paul out of context. Here’s a nice passage of Paul’s that makes things clear, I think:

Romans 6-12:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Now, are you at all interested in what Our Lord Jesus had to say? If so, I’ll be delighted to post some verses and citations for you.

Peace of Christ be with you.

 

[pablope]

Leadee,

You just gave me a very big quote from the Bible. But that proves nothing.

I am asking, WHAT IS YOUR FOUNDATION to believe that the BIBLE is TRULY the WORD OF GOD? How do you go from Resurrection of Christ TO the BIBLE or Christianity?

Because so far, you have given none. You just repeat biblical quote after the other.

Instead, you keep repeating Biblical quote after quote. So please, answer the question. How do you know the Bible is the Word of God?

And in case you still haven’t gotten it, providing quotes from the Bible does not give valid REASON to believe it is the WORD of GOD.

God Bless

Leadee…here is something to help you along…since you are fond of providing Biblical quotes…so here is my fairly easy question…it should be easy for you to find…

Where in the Bible, quote/provide the chapter and verse (the Title and table of contents do not count, these were put in later)…where St. Mark claims he is he author of the Gospel of Mark?

 

[ddarko]

Ddarko,
Cut to the chase: the reason that we know the Bible is the word of God is because it was declared as such by Pope Damasus in 382AD. Protestants believe in the truth of the bible as an article of faith but few go back to understand how it was written, compiled and canonized. If they thought about it, they would have to recognize that when they follow the bible, they are using a Catholic resource, put together for teaching and liturgical uses by the early church fathers

Actually, I am not after that.

I want him to see something greater. The idea that he has to trust in the Apostles of Jesus. At the beginning, it was Peter, John etc. Then they instituted others with the same teaching authority like St. Paul. That has continued to this day. THIS is HISTORICAL fact.

If he wants to say that the Apostles now might be in error, then this applies to the entire set of Apostles even right after Jesus. In other words, there is no Christianity.

So either he accepts that Apostles, when deciding matters of teaching are infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit or not. Since he nor the early Christians were Christ’s apostles, they had to obey and give full assent to what the Apostles taught.

While the point of the Canon of Scripture is covered here, it also shows a fundamental logical error in the Protestant thinking.

With respect to Canon of Scripture, many believe that they can still just accept it as “Holy Spirit made sure the right Canon ended up in their hands”. But that becomes unreasonable because if they say no to the teaching authority of the Apostles, it is unreasonable to assume that “Holy Spirit must guide people to the truth” is TRUE. Such a proposition is merely a speculation.

That is what I want Leadee to realize.

God Bless

 

[Leadee]

Be careful, Leadee. You must be respectful of Catholicism here on the CAFs and not insult your hosts.

Just a friendly warning. It is good for you to be here and discuss the Faith with Catholics, so I wouldn’t like to see you banned or suspended.

At any rate, what exactly are these beliefs that all Christians agree are essential doctrines, and what are the non-essential ones? And how do you know?

I’m sorry. I shouldn’t debate. I feel like I’m teamed up against and being judged because I am not able to agree. I mean no harm.

 

[Leadee]

Leadee,

You just gave me a very big quote from the Bible. But that proves nothing. I realize that not everything is in the bible and that God can still give new revelation but the new revelation will not change or do away with the present revelation. That’s called changing the Word. New revelation must line up with and not contradict it.
I am asking, WHAT IS YOUR FOUNDATION to believe that the BIBLE is TRULY the WORD OF GOD? How do you go from Resurrection of Christ TO the BIBLE or Christianity?

I know of no other measuring rod for truth more reliable then the God who laid truth out so I have chosen God’s Word. If the bible is not God’s Word then I guess I’m in trouble. If it is then I don’t know of any better source of truth. (OT and NT)
And in case you still haven’t gotten it, providing quotes from the Bible does not give valid REASON to believe it is the WORD of GOD.

I think I’ll just stop trying to discuse this subject, or any subject for that matter because we are not even on the same plain if we can’t agree that the bible is God’s Word. If I believed that His Word wasn’t truth I would forget about christianity altogether. I can better understand why many are confused by christianity. God bless you.
God Bless

 

[Leadee]

At any rate, what exactly are these beliefs that all Christians agree are essential doctrines, and what are the non-essential ones? And how do you know?

Essential doctrine is that the bible is the word of God and Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and understanding that means that he came to save the world from sin and death.
The rest would be the doctrines that are built on that belief but I wouldn’t call them non-essential, they just don’t change the core truth.
I thought we all agree that the bible is God’s Word (God is perfect therefore so is His Word) but apparently that’s not really true.

 

[fpesce]

Actually what you presented did not teach what you want to say.

The Work of the Law and GOOD works are two different things. While works of the LAW are unnecessary for salvation, GOOD works are necessary for salvation.

God Bless

Well, I believe I am beginning to see your point. You are making a distinction between works of the law and good works. You are separating the two. Okay, can you please give me where your definition of good works and works of the law comes from?

 

[fpesce]

Well, I believe I am beginning to see your point. You are making a distinction between works of the law and good works. You are separating the two. Okay, can you please give me where your definition of good works and works of the law comes from?

Let me get this straight. In other words are you saying that good works that provides prove your faith are necessary for your salvation?

 

[ddarko]

Leadee:
Leadee,

You are missing the point.

IF you ANALYZE why you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then you would now be talking about interpreting the Bible alone etc.

That is my point.

So this is essential to this discussion here. Right now you are in error. The only way you are going to see what the error would be if you started from the Resurrection and check how you come to believe in CHRISTIANITY.

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

Only the bishops are official spokeseman for the Catholic Church but I am quite confident that I characterized Catholic teaching properly. If I hadn’t, the Catholic apologists on this website would have been quick to correct me. As it is, they challenged you to prove me wrong. You can be initially justified by faith alone but that is not generally enough to get to heaven (the situation where it might be is if you died immediately following baptism).

I was quoting from the USCCB (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) that was in agreement with the statement of Saint Paul in the book of Romans that exactly corroborates my view I have been advocating.

 

[paul_c]

Essential doctrine is that the bible is the word of God and Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and understanding that means that he came to save the world from sin and death.
The rest would be the doctrines that are built on that belief but I wouldn’t call them non-essential, they just don’t change the core truth.
I thought we all agree that the bible is God’s Word (God is perfect therefore so is His Word) but apparently that’s not really true.

Leadee, we all believe that what the bible teaches is truth and that it is divinely inspired.

But, even though everything in the bible is true, not all truth is in the Bible. Most fundamentally, you need Tradition to help you understand what the bible says. As should be abundently clear to everyone on this thread, there are many different ways to interpret bible passages, and sometimes the interpretations are diametrically opposed. for instance, you interpret the gospel message to say that Jesus will bring us to heaven if we only beleve in his saving power. We Catholics believe that except in very specific situations (death immediately following baptism), that faith alone is insufficient to enter heaven but that you must do God’s will. Both of us believe that the Bible supports our positions. We need someone we can trust to arbitrate this for us. That’s where the Pope, God’s representative on earth comes in.

 

[ddarko]

Well, I believe I am beginning to see your point. You are making a distinction between works of the law and good works. You are separating the two. Okay, can you please give me where your definition of good works and works of the law comes from?

Well Romans. St. Paul is specifically speaking about Works of the Law i.e. OT Laws. This is how it has always been held in Tradition.

Good Works refers to doing the WILL OF GOD i.e. Morally Good things. This is throughout Scripture and in Jesus’ teaching. But here is one of my favorites that highlight the importance of works. (Matthew 25:34-46)

“Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for** I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.” 41*Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” **44Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45Then he will answer them, **“Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’ **

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Essential doctrine is that the bible is the word of God and Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and understanding that means that he came to save the world from sin and death.
The rest would be the doctrines that are built on that belief but I wouldn’t call them non-essential, they just don’t change the core truth.
I thought we all agree that the bible is God’s Word (God is perfect therefore so is His Word) but apparently that’s not really true.

BUT WHAT IS YOUR FOUNDATION FOR SUCH CLAIMS?

I really don’t get you Leadee. You make BOLD claims. But you have no RHYME nor REASON to back them up and show why we should believe they are true

Please answer the question. How do you go from the Resurrection of Christ to the claim you made above that “Essential doctrine is that the bible is the word of God and Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and understanding that means that he came to save the world from sin and death” is TRUE?

It obviously can’t be proven by a Bible quote because that would be to already assume what you are trying to prove.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Let me get this straight. In other words are you saying that good works that provides prove your faith are necessary for your salvation?

I am saying, Faith (in the sense protestants used it in the reformation as mental belief) is insufficient.

Salvation is through FAITH and GOOD WORKS. They are both necessary. One without the other is dead.

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

I am saying, Faith (in the sense protestants used it in the reformation as mental belief) is insufficient.

Salvation is through FAITH and GOOD WORKS. They are both necessary. One without the other is dead.

God Bless

oops typo, restating:

Let me get this straight. In other words are you saying that good works that provides proof your faith are necessary for your salvation?

 

[ddarko]

oops typo, restating:

Let me get this straight. In other words are you saying that good works that provides proof your faith are necessary for your salvation?

I am not sure what you are asking?

Are you asking whether Good works provides proof of faith?

Then the answer is NO. One can do Good Works without any Faith. Atheists do good works too.

Also in the other sense, one can say they have FAITH (a mental belief of Christ like in that Scripture passage I quoted to you earlier) but have no WORKS.

So the point is, FAITH AND WORKS is important for salvation. Neither by it-self is proof of the other.

God Bless

 

[fpesce]

I am not sure what you are asking?

Are you asking whether Good works provides proof of faith?

Then the answer is NO. One can do Good Works without any Faith. Atheists do good works too.

Also in the other sense, one can say they have FAITH (a mental belief of Christ like in that Scripture passage I quoted to you earlier) but have no WORKS.

So the point is, FAITH AND WORKS is important for salvation. Neither by it-self is proof of the other.

God Bless

How can you prove faith?

 

[ddarko]

How can you prove faith?

What do you mean prove faith?

I am not saying WORKS prove FAITH.

I am saying they are both Necessary. So I am not saying that one must do works to PROVE their faith. I am saying one must do GOOD WORKS because that is also a necessity for salvation.

God Bless