What wage is just?

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Pattylt said:
Googled janitor wages (usually amongst the lowest wages) and its $15 to $17 per hour. While that seems pretty good to me, I think the cost of housing in Redmond is quite high so I hope the janitors can take advantage of opportunities offered to expand their education for higher paying jobs down the road?
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While it will differ from place to place, sometimes jobs like janitor and sanitation worker (if you work directly for a corporation or government entity rather than as a contractor) pay fairly well for the level of skills needed to do the job.
 
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I recommend that you stop right now. You’re treading on thin ground when you start telling people that they don’t know what hard work is.

She very much knows what hard work is, as do many people who don’t work in manual labor. Try working a 15-hour shift in a hospital lab some time. Or baling hay. Or doing 48 hours with no sleep trying to fix a computer project that isn’t going well. Or staying up through the night with a feverish baby. Or keeping a death watch for your father who has cancer.

Just stop.
 
As legitimate as the “they could lose their home” argument may or may not be in particular circumstances, there is a big difference between losing a massive investment and not being guarranteed a return (meaning you worked for free for however long you tried to make a go of it) and simply risking the cessation of a bi-weekly paycheque. The first risk is much larger, abstracting from questions of how well the individuals are able to personally weather the risks. (personal risk doesn’t always equal financial risk, but there’s definitely a connection)
 
Umm–you don’t know what you’re talking about.

People who sit at a desk are statistically much more likely to suffer from the illnesses of the sedentary; e.g., diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, etc. Even if desk workers do regular workouts, it still doesn’t make up for 8-10 hours of sitting at a desk.

And it HURTS to sit at a desk, or in my case, at a bench in a lab for hours at a stretch examining petri plates of bacteria. Sometimes when I stand up, I’m so stiff I can’t straighten out. Some people in the lab suffer from stiff necks or BACK problems.

And you are wrong if you think that mental stress doesn’t break down a body. Yes, it does. There are correlations between stress and HBP, strokes, heart disease, liver disease, addictive diseases, lack of sleep (which causes a lot of physical symptoms, including increasing the danger of being involved in a car accident).

Stress also is a factor in many cases of depression, which also affects the body. The Number One cause of death in people diagnosed with depression is suicide.

So don’t try to convince anyone that mental work doesn’t hurt. You are so wrong, and medical studies prove that you are wrong.
 
He is probably referring to the physical environment around him ( like tough conditions, heat, cold, insects, whatever) and that the wages do not compensate that effort and tough environment.
Of course a “ white collar “may have a very stressful and toxic human environment around him, but he may mean with better physical conditions to surmount it and better wages.
At least that is what Inunderstand he is saying.
If this is so,in a way I agree, both are tough. But a rough physical environment,physical exposure to harm, and low wage make it tougher still.
It isn’t t the same to get home to sleep in a house with air conditioning and a comfortable bed that is to go back home to share a room with several members of the family and be able to rest just as comfortably.
 
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I often envy my brother (the welder/mechanic), who works outdoors in all weather at a physically-demanding job.

He’s only a 1.5 years younger than me, but he is in tremendous physical shape. Not overweight, very muscular, and other than his feet (which were deformed at birth and required 18 surgeries to correct), he doesn’t have aches and pains.

Now me–I’m about 50 pounds overweight even by the “curvy girl” charts, and I have a jelly belly and osteoarthritis of the knee (which probably would have happened even if I was thin, but it might hurt less), and I struggle to keep my lipid ratio and blood pressure in the normal ranges.

And I spend $800.00/year on a gym membership (it’s not safe to workout outside where I live), while my brother gets his workout every day while he’s at work.

My dad was the same way. Before he died of cancer, he was in incredible physical condition from all his manual labor.

And of course, my brother and other manual laborers have the satisfaction of seeing their products, while my “product” (lab work) is continuous, 24/7, never ends, and there’s more and more of it every year and although the automation supposedly makes it easier and faster, there are a lot of bugs in that “automation” that also make the work more frustrating and complicated.

ALL work has its ups and downs, pains and hazards. ALL work has value and can provide satisfaction.
 
Oh–one more thing.

A lot of those “physical” labor jobs pay a LOT more hourly wage than I make! When my dad retired back in the 1980s from his pipefitting job, his hourly wage was more than I make now after nearly 30 years in my hospital lab.

And my brother rakes it in.

So does my son in law (airplane mechanic).

Several of our lab people have quit to take “manual labor” jobs because they pay better. One of our employees decided to trash his lab tech career and become an electrician. Even during the 7-year apprenticeship, he was making a higher hourly-wage than we do.

The unions help, although there are non-manual labor jobs that have unions (e.g., Equity, the union of actors and other theater professionals). Unions form when management doesn’t treat their employees right–so once again, another example of how workers in the United States have options to get their work circumstances and wages improved.
 
powerandglory said:
We are unique in that we tear apart anyone who would try to cap the profits of the wealthy in an attempt to boost up society as a whole.
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Perhaps, but what about tearing the rich apart after they disproportionally boost society as a whole ?
 
I had to retire two years early due to the physical pain from wear and tear on my body. I worked in general lab and with running back and forth from chemistry to hemo to urinalysis, my knees were shot as well as my hips. I had constant neck pain from microscope reading. Then there is the mental stress of the job because you can’t make mistakes or someone could die!

Yeah, no one thinks lab work is physical! I may not be swinging a hammer but I ran my butt off and into the ground. The good news is that although the damage to my joins is done, being able to rest when I need to and not be on my feet all day has reduced my pain level tremendously.

And Peeps, thanks for saving lives behind the scenes! Remember, not all heroes wear capes…some wear lab coats!
 
Honest days work for a honest days wage…One is given a honest true value of ones hard earned laborer’s worth and hrs worked…A living wage that does not defraud a laborer of ones true value of wages earned…A living wage that is determine accordingly by inflation also… Peace
 
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YourNameHere said:
If there were no national minimum wage, some people would try to hire folks to work for less than $5 an hour.
By the way, what is this so-called neo-socialist redistribution plan you speak of? Another conspiracy theory? Or just regular Fox News programming? 😂🤣
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A national minimum wage is not needed. State, county, and/or city minimum wages are.

Cost of living differences across the country are really vast. There are also vast differences with the people who work the minimum wage jobs across the nation.

Lets use a real life example.

Let say there is a fast food chain in rural America that has 10 minimum wage employees. 5 of them are high school students working a part-time job so they can pay for a car. (which is every common in rural America).

The other 5 employees are mothers who are working full & part time to help supplement the income her husband makes so they can pay their bills.

Let’s say the minimum wage in that state is $10 per hour. That money is GREAT for the high school kid.

And lets say, this the chain has budgeted to be able pay $15 per hour (based on the minimum wage in other states).

By not dictating a higher national minimum wage (based on the more expensive parts of the country), the restaurant is free to offer more money to the women who are struggling to pay their bills.

So in theory, the restaurant could apply their pay $10 per hour to the kids, while paying the working mothers $20 per hour.

ONE of the problems of the national minimum wage is that is brings the bottom up, but doesn’t allow for growth.

Minimum Wage jobs were never designed to be for family earners. They were designed primarily for teenagers and part time workers. NOT for something trying to make living.

By setting a national minimum wage, you actually wind up hurting the poor because you make things more expensive simply to pay teenagers and part-time workers more money.

Because outside the cities, most minimum-wage workers are teens and part-timers. Not full time workers trying to support their families. While it’s true that urban adults work a lot of full time minimum wage jobs, that’s not true in all parts of the nation. This is why it makes sense for cities & counties to be allowed to increase the state minimum wage when they see fit.

INSTEAD - what would be better is to enact legislation which (1) legalizes a FAMILY WAGE (which the courts have deemed as unconstitutional) and (2) encourages employers to provide career opportunities to people with families.

The key (to me) is to promote a way to help families, not a blanket rule (that while well intended) will ultimately help singles while hurting families.

And move the power to increase the minimum wages down to the county or city levels. If a city or county wants to increase their minimum wage, they should be allowed to do so.

God Bless
 
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phil19034 said:
Let say there is a fast food chain in rural America that has 10 minimum wage employees. 5 of them are high school students working a part-time job so they can pay for a car. (which is every common in rural America).

The other 5 employees are mothers who are working full & part time to help supplement the income her husband makes so they can pay their bills.

Let’s say the minimum wage in that state is $10 per hour. That money is GREAT for the high school kid.

And lets say, this the chain has budgeted to be able pay $15 per hour (based on the minimum wage in other states).

By not dictating a higher national minimum wage (based on the more expensive parts of the country), the restaurant is free to offer more money to the women who are struggling to pay their bills.

So in theory, the restaurant could apply their pay $10 per hour to the kids, while paying the working mothers $20 per hour.
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The other argument, though, would be that the company might have an incentive to hire students instead of adults (or maybe even fire adults and replace them with students) just to save a little money on payroll.

This was one of the arguments used against the subminimum (“training”) wage for teenagers when it was adopted.
 
signit said:
The other argument, though, would be that the company might have an incentive to hire students instead of adults (or maybe even fire adults and replace them with students) just to save a little money on payroll.

This was one of the arguments used against the subminimum (“training”) wage for teenagers when it was adopted.
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And that’s where the idea of allowing cities and/or countries to raise their local minimum wage comes into play.

Things should be adjusted and policed at the local level. If a city or county sees that happening in their jurisdiction, they can raise their local rate to compensate.

However, there are really are only X number of teens willing to work & and the vast majority of them can only work part time. Labor departments across the country should be focused on ways to encourage & even incentivize full time employment.

God Bless
 
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Peeps said:
I often envy my brother (the welder/mechanic), who works outdoors in all weather at a physically-demanding job.

He’s only a 1.5 years younger than me, but he is in tremendous physical shape. Not overweight, very muscular, and other than his feet (which were deformed at birth and required 18 surgeries to correct), he doesn’t have aches and pains.

Now me–I’m about 50 pounds overweight even by the “curvy girl” charts, and I have a jelly belly and osteoarthritis of the knee (which probably would have happened even if I was thin, but it might hurt less), and I struggle to keep my lipid ratio and blood pressure in the normal ranges.

And I spend $800.00/year on a gym membership (it’s not safe to workout outside where I live), while my brother gets his workout every day while he’s at work.

My dad was the same way. Before he died of cancer, he was in incredible physical condition from all his manual labor.

And of course, my brother and other manual laborers have the satisfaction of seeing their products, while my “product” (lab work) is continuous, 24/7, never ends, and there’s more and more of it every year and although the automation supposedly makes it easier and faster, there are a lot of bugs in that “automation” that also make the work more frustrating and complicated.

ALL work has its ups and downs, pains and hazards. ALL work has value and can provide satisfaction.
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You know, you and the other poster have made some great points on who “works harder,” the physical laborer or the white-collar worker.

When the argument is made that the white-collar worker gets paid more than the blue-collar worker because they “work harder,” I can see how the bricklayer lifting bricks all day might resent that, seeing the CEO dining with clients and getting the VIP treatment. And I’ve never seen a 70-year-old bricklayer; my mother once commented that very few blue-collar men can work until the standard retirement age.

So, rather than saying that a higher-paid person “works harder,” I like to say that that person has a skill set that’s more highly valued. Obviously a fast-food place will pay more for a CEO making million dollar decisions than the person mopping floors.

And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. During the corporate scandals of the early 2000s there was an opinion piece in either the Wall Street Journal or New York Times written by a CEO explaining what he had to do to get there, including working during spring break to help pay for college. It seems only fair that that person would be compensated more than the person who didn’t make that commitment.
 
Peeps said:
Oh–one more thing.

A lot of those “physical” labor jobs pay a LOT more hourly wage than I make! When my dad retired back in the 1980s from his pipefitting job, his hourly wage was more than I make now after nearly 30 years in my hospital lab.

And my brother rakes it in.

So does my son in law (airplane mechanic).

Several of our lab people have quit to take “manual labor” jobs because they pay better. One of our employees decided to trash his lab tech career and become an electrician. Even during the 7-year apprenticeship, he was making a higher hourly-wage than we do.

The unions help, although there are non-manual labor jobs that have unions (e.g., Equity, the union of actors and other theater professionals). Unions form when management doesn’t treat their employees right–so once again, another example of how workers in the United States have options to get their work circumstances and wages improved.
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It’s the law of supply and demand.

We have been telling our kids (even since Gen X was little), “you need to work hard in school so you can go to college and get a good job. Otherwise, you’ll have to do manual labor.” I know I heard that plenty from hard working (and very successful) blue collar parents.

I was born in 1977 and my dad was a computer scientist. The irony was that all of richest people in my high school all came from blue collar families, OR both parents worked white collar jobs. But there were plenty of rich and upper middle class families in my school that had only 1 working class father.

Point is, as a society, we painted “manual labor” as the job for losers. Even the working class fathers said that to their kids… thinking their children would have a better life then they did if they went to college.

So now, what has happened:
  1. we have an abundant over-supply of white collar workers. (for example, every year far more people graduate from law school than law jobs available)
  2. we have a vast shortage of skilled labor
I think education is important, however, I don’t think it’s important to go $50,000 to $250,000 dollars in debt only to receive a degree that you are not going to use. How many people have a degree in the social sciences who are NOT using their degree at all?

How many of us (in hindsight) could have attended a cheaper college and still be in the exact same place we are today?

Education is important - but the over-valuation we have put on it has really hurt us. We need to get back to a more classical approach to high school education so that kids don’t need college just to learn how to think. They should be graduating high school ready to function in the world.

God bless
 
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phil19034 said:
And that’s where the idea of allowing cities and/or countries to raise their local minimum wage comes into play.

Things should be adjusted and policed at the local level. If a city or county sees that happening in their jurisdiction, they can raise their local rate to compensate.

However, there are really are only X number of teens willing to work & and the vast majority of them can only work part time. Labor departments across the country should be focused on ways to encourage & even incentivize full time employment.
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Okay.

I think this could work, if it were really true that there were only so many teens willing to take the jobs.

I know that employers pay employees what the job is worth, not what the employee “needs.” They’re not in the business of paying one employee more than another just because that employee has to support a family.
phil19034 said:
We have been telling our kids (even since Gen X was little), “you need to work hard in school so you can go to college and get a good job. Otherwise, you’ll have to do manual labor.” As a society, we painted “manual labor” as the job for losers.

So now, what has happened:
  1. we have an abundant over-supply of white collar workers. (for example, every year far more people graduate from law school than law jobs available)
  2. we have a vast shortage of skilled labor
I think education is important, however, I don’t think it’s important to go $50,000 to $250,000 dollars in debt only to receive a degree that you are not going to use. How many people have a degree in the social sciences who do NOT using their degree at all?

How many of us (in hindsight) could have attended a cheaper college and still be in the exact same place we are today?
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Oh, you’re definitely right on the money with that, especially the part I bolded, which I know from personal experience.
 
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We need Free college, free healthcare, subsidized housing for inner cities, universal basic income, heavy tax on corporations and industries using non-rewewable resources.

We can help the underprivileged but it will need to be a full-scale project. Wages aren’t enough because inflation will just rise. We need to fix the entire issue of poverty from the ground up
 
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