What wage is just?

[GospelOfMatthew]

I want what’s mine. And I also want what’s yours.”

You are placing me in a “generation of greed” and followed by saying “I want what’s mine. And I also want what’s yours.”

I do not wish to continue this rabbit hole, it is non-productive

 

[Peeps]

This is insulting to the poor, the uneducated, and the minorities. It does NOT uphold their dignity, but rather, turns them into “charity cases” who aren’t capable of making it in life.

The assumption appears to be that the poor, the uneducated, and the minorities are incapable of succeeding. That’s just not true.

There are plenty of people who started out life poor, or who are members of a minority, or who lived in an area where they received a poor education, who rose above it all and found a way (other than crime) to get that education, overcome bigotry and discrimination, and land a well-paying job.

What’s needed is not a package of freebies courtesy of all the rest of us who managed to find jobs that pay a living wage, but instead, more education about all the pathways to success for those who, through no fault of their own, are at a disadvantage to white people who were born into well-off families.

I would say that we Christians should seek ways to act as mentors and counselors to those who want to succeed in getting their education and landing a job that pays a living wage. If we own a company(ies), it would be good to start a program designed to help those who had a disadvantaged background to become eligible to work in our company. If we are working in a profession that pays a good income, but is relatively unknown (e.g., laboratory medicine!), it would be good of us to volunteer for teen job fairs and tell young people about our profession. If we are teachers, we need to continually encourage our students to make the most of their opportunity to receive a free education and to begin to think early about a job/career that will given them a realistic income that is sufficient to support them and a family. If we are part of a church, we should support any job training support groups that the church has (our parish has such a program).

There are already laws in the U.S. requiring that everyone receive a free public education, and penalizing people who discriminate against minorities. Passing laws requiring the raising of wages will in all likelihood not accomplish a raise in wages because funding these program will require a raise in taxes, and most of the monies will be spent on the day-to-day administration of the program and salaries for the administrators of the program.

No way around it–people just gotta make their own way in the U.S.A.! We have to stop relying on Uncle Sam to pay our way through life.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

Have a good day RuthAnne

 

[ewohdrol]

That’s a typical attitude for the generation of greed. “I want what’s mine. And I also want what’s yours.”

Generation of greed! That poster is saying he/she will gladly give money for underprivileged education. I don’t think you can make that accusation of that particular poster! Considering what your position is in this thread I think throwing the greed card around might be a bit ironic.

Let’s be honest. People born into families with no means have very little opportunities to better themselves through higher education. Providing a system where most nationals can attend no matter your families economic status allows the individual to actually better themselves fairly.

There is a lot if talk about people ‘earning their way’ but really we are saying ‘mommy and daddy earned their kids way in’. We know higher education most often leads to higher income. Why not level the playing field.

 

[RuthAnne]

I don’t think you can make that accusation of that particular poster!

I didn’t accuse that poster. I accused the generation of greed.

 

[ewohdrol]

Yes you did. You said it was his attitude and directly quoted him.

 

[RuthAnne]

People born into families with no means have very little opportunities to better themselves through higher education.

Higher education is over rated as my kids can tell you. There is an abundance of wealthy people in this country who did it without “higher education.”

Providing a system where most nationals can attend no matter your families economic status allows the individual to actually better themselves fairly.

Fairly? Life isn’t fair. Do I need to bore you with all the injustices I suffered in this life? Do I need Mommy government to kiss all my booboos?

There is a lot if talk about people ‘earning their way’ but really we are saying ‘mommy and daddy earned their kids way in’.

Oh, really? Are you suggesting that ambitious, hard working kids can’t get educated without mommy and daddy?

 

[RuthAnne]

Yes you did. You said it was his attitude and directly quoted him.

And my point is, good rich taxpayers should pay for other people’s college

Ummm, no I didn’t. I did not say it was his attitude. I said it was a typical attitude for the generation of greed.

 

[ewohdrol]

You’re being facetious.

Yes I’m suggesting people can’t easily get a higher education without mommy and daddy. Countless studies agree with me. Countless studies also show a correlation between giving educational access to lower socioeconomic children raises their earning level and thus outcomes. But you know best of course.

I’m out.

 

[RuthAnne]

I’m suggesting people can’t easily get a higher education without mommy and daddy.

Why does it need to be easy? I’d much prefer seeing people have to work hard and sweat a lot while obtaining a higher education. A few years living well below the poverty level and giving up a few things in preparation for life is not a bad thing. It’s called developing character.

 

[LilyM]

There are plenty of people who started out life poor, or who are members of a minority, or who lived in an area where they received a poor education, who rose above it all and found a way (other than crime) to get that education, overcome bigotry and discrimination, and land a well-paying job.

What’s needed is not a package of freebies courtesy of all the rest of us who managed to find jobs that pay a living wage, but instead, more education about all the pathways to success for those who, through no fault of their own, are at a disadvantage to white people who were born into well-off families.

I would say that we Christians should seek ways to act as mentors and counselors to those who want to succeed in getting their education and landing a job that pays a living wage. If we own a company(ies), it would be good to start a program designed to help those who had a disadvantaged background to become eligible to work in our company. If we are working in a profession that pays a good income, but is relatively unknown (e.g., laboratory medicine!), it would be good of us to volunteer for teen job fairs and tell young people about our profession. If we are teachers, we need to continually encourage our students to make the most of their opportunity to receive a free education and to begin to think early about a job/career that will given them a realistic income that is sufficient to support them and a family. If we are part of a church, we should support any job training support groups that the church has (our parish has such a program).

There are already laws in the U.S. requiring that everyone receive a free public education, and penalizing people who discriminate against minorities. Passing laws requiring the raising of wages will in all likelihood not accomplish a raise in wages because funding these program will require a raise in taxes, and most of the monies will be spent on the day-to-day administration of the program and salaries for the administrators of the program.

You are confusing taxpayer-funded welfare (“Uncle Sam”) with a minimum wage which is paid by private employers. As Rerum Novarum taught, there is an inherent dignity in labour of all sorts such that workers should not unduly be hampered in their ability to support themselves and their families through their labour.

It would be wonderful if all employers were all both ethical and Christian enough to see Christ in each of their workers rather than a mere cog in their business machine. Unfortunately, a lightly-regulated capitalist environment the reward too often comes from obtaining maximum possible work from each wage-earner for minimum possible spent in the way of pay.

Business owners are treated, as we see even in this thread, as something akin to heroes, and so highly entitled, and minimum wage workers as closer to a highly expendable commodity whose plight is somehow always entirely their own fault.

Christian ethics and the dignity of workers does not seem to get a high priority, at least not enough to attempt to put it into law.

 

[RuthAnne]

Christian ethics and the dignity of workers does not seem to get a high priority, at least not enough to attempt to put it into law.

We already have too many laws. It’s the mark of an immoral society.

 

[Theo520]

Exactly my point. They won’t own a home, raise kids to a normal western standard, or likely get married at all. Now to some (usually those who are not staring down the barrel of a wage-slave life ending with a lonely death from exhaustion followed by as cheap a burial as the government can give because they have no living descendents or family) this is acceptable and even admirable. Muh capitalist corporate Murica and all that. For others, it’s a high price to pay so Google can ship our jobs to Indians to work for pennies on the dollar.

NO, they can readily live in a home that costs below the median price.
Don’t you understand the definition of ‘median’?

 

[Peeps]

I am not confusing taxpayer-funded welfare with a minimum wage paid by private employers, and I apologize if my writing was confusing.

IF the government mandates a national minimum wage, THAT would be “Uncle Sam” creating a “program” that will cost tax dollars to staff and maintain. (Someone has to check up on employers to make sure they are in compliance, and investigate grievances by workers who are not being paid the mandated minimum wage.)

I agree with you that employers should do their darndest to make sure that everyone is paid well.

I agree with others that some employers live like caliphs while their laborers struggle to put food on the table and pay the rent on a hovel.

But I also know for a fact that many employers have sacrificed everything they own and are mortgaged up to their hairlines and have borrowed so much money from loan companies, banks, and friends and realtives that if their company fails, they will be destitute and no one will help them because they have already given them money.

Many times, these employers are paying their workers the very best salary they can afford, with the hope that the company will grow and succeed, and they can eventually raise everyone’s salary. If they are forced to raise salaries for laborers and clerical workers and other low-skill workers–they will have to close the company, and they and everyone else will be out of work.

OR…there are people who make great sacrifices to purchase a franchise, and they do so with the understanding that they can pay workers a certain salary. IF they are forced to raise that salary, they will probably lose their franchise.

My point is, a one-size for all just won’t work when it comes to wages. People have to do as well as they can in school and then be wise when it comes to accepting a job. If Mom and Dad are amenable, it might be wise to live at home a few more years, or find several roommates who can all share a rent, and go to trade school or apply for an apprenticeship, or even work on an Associate’s Degree at a local community college. Get some kind of job with even a small wage to pay for the school, or knock on the doors at your city’s government buildings until you find a source of funding (low interest loans, scholarships based on race or nationality, etc.). Or if you were a good athlete, you might be able to go to your community college with some kind of financial aid. ASK the colleges–they would rather give someone financial aid and enroll them instead of losing a potential student.

Ask at your parish. Ask your friends.

Or…there’s always the military. If you are willing to go for this option, you get a lot of benefits. Hopefully, you’ll stay safe.

What I’m saying is that we all have to take the initiative. There are good employers who will help you get through the first few years of your grown-up working life, and there are employers who will take advantage of you and pay you rock bottom and work you like a slave. You have to be wise.

 

[RuthAnne]

Like I always say. If you think it’s broken now, just wait until government fixes it.

 

[JimG]

Speaking for myself, I received no financial help from my parents for college expenses. They simply could not afford it. My siblings and I paid our own college expenses. I found an inexpensive two year college and paid my ow tuition from my own earnings. Then transferred to a four year college that was more expensive but still affordable by using the money I eared durig the summers. A friend of mine joined the U.S. Marines, then used the GI bill to pay for his college, while also working summers as a janitor at an elementary school.

Now colleges have become prohibitively expenses because the government provides student loans which result in graduates going from college directly into indentured debt servitude for life. I think people should scorn such loans and refuse to pay excessive tuition. Opt for less expensive schools or for the military.

 

[Socrates92]

So you’ve never decided to “boycott” a store or company based on anything happening that you didn’t like? Be it a company policy or even a bad experience in a store? What about food you don’t like in a restaurant?

On occasion, yes. Of course, I do that with the full knowledge that, to the extent that my boycott does anything, the employees will suffer as well as the business. Which is why it makes little sense as a protest measure when you are protested perceived mistreatment of employees.

If so, you better keep eating it or that restaurant could go out of business and leave people jobless!

Unlikely. If enough people did it though, they might have to lay-off staff or reduce hours. Which is fine from my perspective if I think the service/product is not useful - it will give the opportunity for the employees/business to move towards more useful ventures (assuming my views are representative of the general society).

It makes no sense to boycott a business with a perfectly good product or service in order to protest labour issues. In the case that the labour force is trimmed, you’ve simply forced the workers away from the place they actually chose to work at towards whatever plan B (assuming it exists) was. You’re treating the workers as pawns to make a point about whatever you think the company’s labour practises should be. So, no, I’ve never boycotted for that reason as it wouldn’t make much sense.

Obviously, the use of actual slave labour would be an exception, assuming that this would likely have some positive effect on the actual situation of the slaves. More the most part, though “slave labour” is just rhetoric to refer to conditions which seem unappealing to our cushy lifestyle in order to justify knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Let’s be honest. People born into families with no means have very little opportunities to better themselves through higher education. Providing a system where most nationals can attend no matter your families economic status allows the individual to actually better themselves fairly.

My state allows every resident to attend a 2 year college or vocational school for free, regardless of income. It’s funded through the state lottery, where contributions are voluntary. All states could do something similar without taking one cent away from people against their will.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Which is why it makes little sense as a protest measure when you are protested perceived mistreatment of employees.

I do care about the working conditions of people, but honestly what I’d prefer to see the most is American companies paying Americans, in America, to make their products. Lacking that, they shouldn’t be able to cut corners by paying people a pittance to work in a hell hole just to turn around and sell the product for good money by first world standards. Ideally a company should have to follow the work environment/safety laws of their home country, or whichever country has the higher standard, when deciding to do business overseas.

 

[graciew]

It is called living with less than any person needs to have the minimum basic.
It doesn t build attitude or character necessarily, but deep pain and resentment sometimes.
How can one wish anyone to live below the line of poverty? If we really know what it means.
Some scarcity and dire poverty are not the same thing
And for the record, I also come from a place where health and education including university are free, as Gospel of Matthew explained through taxpayers, and let me tell you also that no one is forced for that that a society has always agreed is basic humanity. But the idea of doing so willfully seems to escape imagination sometimes.

And it isn t as light and easy as one may imagine because it is free. Students work very hard to enter and keep the regular status there. Money isn’t the filter. Results, knowledge , perseverance and many more are.
That is doesn t suit some societies , doesn t even mean it is “socialist” or whatever crazy idea or love for “ labels” .
Sometimes we are just different and value different things.
Thanks God.
And I wouldn’t t change that for anything, it has shaped our identity where I live somehow and though with lots of room for improvement, we appreciate it. And with all our faults, that is also who we are.
Respect it.
Nothing much more to add .