What We Have Lost & the Road to Restoration

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marymonde said:
Yes we are BLESSED to have the good Archbishop and the parish. He wishes to make St. Louis the Latin Mass center of the country. He wants to establish schools by traditional priests and nuns that will teach the sacred music and latin as requirements. He has also founded a traditional order located here in STL, the Canons of the New Jerusalem.

I was told these will be the first traditional ordinations here in the US in sometime (SSPX is not included in this statement).
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Yes, I have heard of the Canons of the New Jerusalem, although the schools are new to me (sounds like a wonderful idea, only wish I could have gone to one :D).

I think the FSSP had some ordinations in the United States within the last few years (I know they had ordinations in the Cathedral of my Diocese in 2000). Regardless, the ICRSS ordinations are sure to be amazing. I am hoping to get train or bus tickets down to St. Louis for that. Wish me luck 😉
 
I do not have time to look this all up right at this moment, please forgive me. However I am certain Rome has declared the mass, communion, confirmations valid but illicit by the SSPX.
 
marymonde said:
And I believe Holy Matrimony as well. You must have faculties conferred from the local ordinary to perform marriages and hear confessions. All other sacraments do not need a bishops approval.
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Ah yes, that is it. Although (and I could be wrong) I think the SSPX uses the counter-argument that they do have Bishops (and despite the conditions under which these bishops were ordained, their offices are still valid).
 
marymonde said:
I do not have time to look this all up right at this moment, please forgive me. However I am certain Rome has declared the mass, communion, confirmations valid but illicit by the SSPX.
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Yes, that is correct- valid but not licit.

But, God willing, a resolution could soon be found with the rumored approach of the new indult 🙂
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Didn’t leave it out at all (whether you believe it or not). It was right there. It’s not recommended. Coupled with ED’s warning (given by a pope) regarding a falling into a schismatic attitude (which frequent attendance MIGHT engender), I still think it’s swimming against the Holy See.

And you still haven’t answered my very simple question (so I should stop applying the word “spin” to others if I were you): do YOU think that the Holy See wants people to go to SSPX Masses? Don’t “spin” it with “I can only go by the letter” (**I **can only go by the letter, too…and ED).
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I can’t see what is in people’s hearts—so I will not judge if they are swimming or not.

And no–I do not believe the Holy See wants them to attend the SSPX if the intent is to separate from Rome.
 
Caesar said:
Ah yes, that is it. Although (and I could be wrong) I think the SSPX uses the counter-argument that they do have Bishops (and despite the conditions under which these bishops were ordained, their offices are still valid).
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Yes, they call it supplied juridiction. And yes, they are validly consecrated bishops, that is why Rome ex-communicated them. :-/
 
marymonde said:
.

He most certainly has died, risen and will come again, no arguement there. But why would anyone utter these words, after Our Lord has been called down on the altar (table) by a priest, in His PRESENCE? It is tantamount to denying He is RIGHT there in front of us.

We could go on and on arguing about abuses, validity, etc. The most significant question for me is…“Am I worshipping and giving God the finest words, the finest contemplation of His sacrifice, the finest Holy Mass”?
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No, it’s not a denial. It’s truly a mystery: “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.” That’s sufficient mystery that one could spend the rest of one’s life exploring and contemplating it and never reach the end of it: That God did all that and will do all that, out of love for sinful humanity. It’s no denial of the Real Presence.

I saw HE George Cardinal Pell interviewed by Raymond Arroyo. Raymond asked him about this going away in the new translations (it isn’t in the original Latin). Cardinal Pell, no flower child, said he certainly hoped it wasn’t going anywhere and when Raymond asked him about it, he got this whistful look on his face and said about the same as above.

This is an excellent example of how something new doesn’t necessarily mean something bad or something less than what went before.

As for your last paragraph, there is still a noble simplicity to the NO Mass (correctly celebrated) that renders it VERY fit to clothe, as it were, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It’s only my subjective opinion and I intend nothing against the TLM, but I believe it to be as fine.
 
Walking_Home said:
I can’t see what is in people’s hearts—so I will not judge if they are swimming or not.

And no–I do not believe the Holy See wants them to attend the SSPX if the intent is to separate from Rome.
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If you cannot answer better than that, you really need to drop the accusation of “spin” against anyone else…esp. in light of ED’s warning.
 
Caesar said:
But, God willing, a resolution could soon be found with the rumored approach of the new indult 🙂
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Amen. I know alot of good people who do not have an indult whose only means to a TLM is a valid, although illicit, SSPX mass. When one has attended a NO “consecration” with Wonder Bread, and the only other option was the SSPX, they chose the SSPX. The matter of the bread made the consecration invalid, so they went where Our God was truly present. God help me if I found myself in that same predictament.
 
paramedicgirl said:
I think that marriage is also not a valid sacrament for SSPX. maybe someone here can say why.
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actually, i asked a NO priest at saint anythony’s, and one from sacred heart, he told me my marriage was blessed validly.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
No, it’s not a denial. It’s truly a mystery: “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.” That’s sufficient mystery that one could spend the rest of one’s life exploring and contemplating it and never reach the end of it: That God did all that and will do all that, out of love for sinful humanity. It’s no denial of the Real Presence.

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The mystery of the mass is God becoming flesh and blood in the host. It’s eternal. And no matter how comfortable you are at pronouncing these words in front of Our truly present God, I would not say, “Christ will come again” when His Body, blood, soul, and divinity is right in front of my face. If you want to offer Our Lord that phrase, it’s up to you. Like I said in my previous post, I want to give Him the finest.
 
marymonde said:
The mystery of the mass is God becoming flesh and blood in the host. It’s eternal. And no matter how comfortable you are at pronouncing these words in front of Our truly present God, I would not say, “Christ will come again” when His Body, blood, soul, and divinity is right in front of my face. What you want to offer Our Lord that phrase, it’s up to you. Like I said in my previous post, I want to give Him the finest.
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I asked my No priest what was meant by Christ will come again, when He is actually already present on the altar. He said it refers to the second coming. Does that make sense to anyone here?
 
marymonde said:
The mystery of the mass is God becoming flesh and blood in the host. It’s eternal. And no matter how comfortable you are at pronouncing these words in front of Our truly present God, I would not say, “Christ will come again” when His Body, blood, soul, and divinity is right in front of my face. What you want to offer Our Lord that phrase, it’s up to you. Like I said in my previous post, I want to give Him the finest.
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It’s speaking eschatalogically: of the Second Advent.

And that’s great, you wanting to give him the “finest.” Just understand that your definition of the finest is subjective opinion. If the Church approves the retention of this “mysterium fidei,” then it’s just as fine…just as the Novus Ordo is just as fine, just as resplendent, as the TLM.
 
paramedicgirl said:
I asked my No priest what was meant by Christ will come again, when He is actually already present on the altar. He said it refers to the second coming. Does that make sense to anyone here?
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Yes, it does…make sense, that is.
 
marymonde said:
Amen. I know alot of good people who do not have an indult whose only means to a TLM is a valid, although illicit, SSPX mass. When one has attended a NO “consecration” with Wonder Bread, and the only other option was the SSPX, they chose the SSPX. The matter of the bread made the consecration invalid, so they went where Our God was truly present. God help me if I found myself in that same predictament.
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:eek: Wonder Bread!?

I have never encountered that, although I did see a Mass with something that resembled a waffle several years ago, although I do not know what exactly it was made of so I dont know if this was valid or not.

If I could not go to a licit Tridentine Mass once a month like I do now (although we are hoping to get Diocesan permission for the FSSP priest to come every week within the next few months) and there was an SSPX chapel nearby, I would go there. I go to the Cathedral here the rest of the time, but the music is terrible and the Mass is less-then reverant- not to mention that I cannot recieve Communion as I am not allowed to recieve on the tongue 😦
 
paramedicgirl said:
I asked my No priest what was meant by Christ will come again, when He is actually already present on the altar. He said it refers to the second coming. Does that make sense to anyone here?
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Yes, like I said I have no argument that this is a truth, His second coming. In the ‘Ottaviani Intervention’ this is addressed by Cardinal Ottivianni and Cardinal Bacci. They said Our Lord’s true presence would be compromised by adding this phrase after the consecration. Here is some of the text:

fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html
 
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