What's the Problem with Profanity?

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“Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” 1 Corinthians 10:31

Seriously, what cave do you live in that you think foul language, which is a serious misuse of the gift of speech, is EVER appropriate or ever anything less than a venial sin?
As much as I find your point valid I have to say… we all live in the cave of the world with a blurred conscience and darkness around us… so let’s charitably help each other understand where we are stepping in this darkness instead of scolding each other for the unability to always navigate perfectly in it.
👍
 
As much as I find your point valid I have to say… we all live in the cave of the world with a blurred conscience and darkness around us… so let’s charitably help each other understand where we are stepping in this darkness instead of scolding each other for the unability to always navigate perfectly in it.
👍
This is NOT a complicated issue with lots of potential for grey areas such that people who are confused about it or have blurred consciences about it are seriously deserving of much sympathy.

There’s little to no excuse for ‘darkness’ on this matter, it’s more a case of wilful or partially wilful blindness - so why shouldn’t I scold people who are being idiots? I expect and deserve no less when I’m being one, which I have been many times and no doubt will be again.
 
There’s little to no excuse for ‘darkness’ on this matter, it’s more a case of wilful or partially wilful blindness - so why shouldn’t I scold people who are being idiots? .
Because as with any other sin you have to distinguish between the sinner and the sin. Scolding people for “being idiots” as you say, will never convince anyone… in fact… by calling brothers such a name you already go into what I would call profane language.

But peace with that. As I said I agree with you… I am just advicing you to be a little more gentle but I think you know …
 
I guess I don’t want to fee like I’m reverting to fundamentalism.
The words “reverting” and “fundamentalism” caught my eye.

Reverting can be a grand thing or awful depending on what is/has transpired. Such as, I reverted to the faith from faithlessness. Or, I reverted back to stealing from living an honest life.

The same is true of the noun “fundamentalism.”

Ignore me. I used to teach English.
 
This has been on my mind some time now. I really am dissapointed that some of my brothers and sisters here defend foul language.
I think you’re using the term “foul language” far too broadly, as a “catch-all” term to cover everything you can think of. Some of the things you call “foul language” we are defending, but other types of “foul language” we are not, at all. I wish I could make this clearer, but I’m not sure how. (I truly hesitate to bring up examples…)
If it was sinful to wear a swim suit then it would be sinful both at the beach and in Church.
If wearing a swimsuit was intrinsically evil, yes. But it’s not, so it’s not sinful to wear a swimsuit to the beach. But it CAN be sinful under other circumstances, such as wearing nothing but a swimsuit to Mass for absolutely no good reason. The sin isn’t that of “wearing a swimsuit” per se, but it is accidentally. The real sin in this case would be a lack of prudence, a lack of respect for the Lord, and probably causing scandal.
So is blasphemy and cursing and a foul language… It’s a sin against the holiness and purity of God as well as the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
Blasphemy, yes. Cursing (calling down evil upon others), yes.
Foul language, depending on what that means, not necessarily.
I believe that profanity is morally neutral. Determining whether it is a sin or not requires examination of the speaker’s intentions and the surrounding atmosphere. If it is used in excess or to insult someone, then it would certainly be a sin. If not, then I don’t necessarily think it is.

…All words are combinations of simple sounds; nothing more. We use words to express ourselves. As such, words can carry enormous weight, but it’s only because of the meaning attached to them. If we use a word with one underlying meaning, it isn’t the same as using the same word with a different underlying meaning.

…Words themselves are insubstantial without the meaning behind them. That’s why I think you need to judge by the meaning the words carry, not the words themselves.

Of course, I’m not saying profanity is necessary. There nothing wrong with choosing not to use it. But I don’t see it as intrinsically evil.
Pretty much agreed here. 🙂
Okay… so what it comes down to is this.
You don’t see foul language as “intrinsically evil” whereas I do. I think the devil claps his hands when ever someone uses bad language, especially if its a Christian, because its so far from what we were created to do and to whom we were called to be in the image and likeness of God.
Again, it depends on what you mean by “foul language”. Blasphemy, cursing, and insulting others… yes. Improper use of holy names (although we could probably go off on a whole other thread of what constitutes an “improper” use), yes. Expletives to express emotion, provided that they are used under appropriate conditions and do not cause scandal, no.
Seriously, what cave do you live in that you think foul language, which is a serious misuse of the gift of speech, is EVER appropriate or ever anything less than a venial sin?
The exact same cave that ALL of the Catholic Apologists on this forum seem to be living in, apparently. I’ve given several links now to 3 different AAA questions, all of which back me up on this. But I guess that’s exactly where we disagree… provided that it is used under the appropriate conditions, it is not a misuse of the gift of speech.
And to express shock or surprise I find “HOLY COW!” to be quite helpful. I don’t know, profanity seems unnecesary 🤷
Sure. I generally do the same thing, and I think that’s fine. I actually prefer to take that route most of the time, simply because it’s a “safer” habit to have, and because I try to reserve the “stronger” language only for when the “milder” ones just truly aren’t enough to express what I’m thinking… overusing the “stronger” words just weakens their force anyway, IMO.
What do you guys think of substitutes though? Such as “freaking” or “dang” or “shoot”…things of that sort? Is it okay to use them because they don’t really mean anything?
I’d like to second this question, for GraceDK and LilyM… I’d like to know what they think about this, and how/why they justify their response. I’m very curious.

At the same time, though, I find it interesting how you note that “they don’t really mean anything”. I think that’s really interesting, since I think that’s exactly what’s going on even in the case of “stronger” language. The words, regardless of what they sound like, don’t really continue to carry their original meaning when used as expletives.
 
At the same time, though, I find it interesting how you note that “they don’t really mean anything”. I think that’s really interesting, since I think that’s exactly what’s going on even in the case of “stronger” language. The words, regardless of what they sound like, don’t really continue to carry their original meaning when used as expletives.
I use substitutes as an “in-between” phase in my attempts to clean my language up. The final goal of course is getting to the point where I am rid of habit of using (and thinking of using) foul language.
 
I have from the start assumed that this thread was not about strong cursing and swearing, which we all agree is a sin, but about a whole range of other words that do hold meaning. I can think of quite many of them …like using the name of God’s adversary or the place where he lives… It can also be words that my dad would call “latrinary words”… so you can guess.

If an apologist says that using such words anywhere is okay then I must respectfully disagree. He is not my authority. Even if the Magisterium said otherwise I must follow my conscience and say I am surprised that any one here advocate this kind of idle talk which damages the Catholic Church whether you recognize it or not. I can see why emotional states might make us suddenly say something stupid… then we apologise to the Lord and we go to confession. I have done that quite a few times and the priest never ever said: “you need not confess that for its not a sin”.

As for the words you wanted my oppinion on I am not sure what they actually mean so I cannot give one, but I can say that “oh-boy” or “WOW” or “AUCH!” should do just fine when you are surprised by something or you get hurt somehow. This of course takes a bit of training.

When I was a kid I swore alot … but never at home… however, a few times something slipped out of my mouth if my sister hit me or something… then my mother would step in looking all wrong in the face and say :“Who said that?”.
This is a home you could describe as a protestant liberal home… but my parents never allowed us children to use any of the categories of words we have discussed here. I had to learn to discpline myself and I am very thankful and respect my parents today because of this.
When I was in school I as an immature child I would say bad words, at home hardly ever as I just said. When I came to a Catholic school and then a Protestant one after that I was suddenly not allowed to speak foul on the school area. That was the time where I learned to really stop when I wanted to. BUT It was only after I got to know Jesus on a personal level that I understood why I should stop… what He thinks. His oppinion is what matters to me…
Since the conversion experience I cringe everytime I hear someone use any kind of bad language and I feel sorry for them if they persist in this sin because they have not met his Holiness Jesus our King of Glory.

I see you disagree with me. Now I have given my explanation and tried to explain where I am coming from. I can assure you that where I am, most Christians know that our language needs to be transformed when we publicly declare Christ is the Lord, as we are all called to do. Using (name removed by moderator)roper words harms the Church.

Peace and blessings 🙂
 
I don’t think it’s necessary, but I think it has a time and a place when it can be used (never to insult others).
:hmmm:
It does not give glory to God, hence, it is vain. Furthermore, it can cause scandal to others and incline them to sin.
👍
“Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” 1 Corinthians 10:31

Swearing is never good and wholesome and it’s never something that God intends you to do. It’s never something that can be done to His glory, unlike the other stuff you’ve mentioned.

Seriously, what cave do you live in that you think foul language, which is a serious misuse of the gift of speech, is EVER appropriate or ever anything less than a venial sin?
(Harshly put, perhaps) but a valid point.
… people who are confused about it or have blurred consciences about it are seriously deserving of much sympathy.
There’s little to no excuse for ‘darkness’ on this matter, it’s more a case of wilful or partially wilful blindness - so why shouldn’t I scold people who are being idiots? I expect and deserve no less when I’m being one, which I have been many times and no doubt will be again.
😃 (no comment on the last sentence) :rotfl: 😉

Um…if someone is ignorant about their sin, they don’t deserve sympathy? Idiots? Let’s be a little more charitable, Sister! 😃

Willful blindness? I don’t think that’s always the case, but you’re correct in that it’s the case many times.

Anyway, my take on Profanity is:
  1. It demonstrates a lack of self-control. Scripture talks many
    times over and over about self-control of the tongue.
  2. It demonstrates ignorance. People who routinely use
    profanity demonstrate to me a limited vocabulary and lack
    of education. (Admittedly, learned people use it as well.)
  3. It demonstrates immaturity. Just because the rest of the guys
    in the locker room are creative at using the “f” word as a noun,
    verb, adverb, adjuctive and pro-noun doesn’t mean it’s cool to
    be part of the group.
  4. It demonstrated insecurity. Sure one can sound “tough” or
    “cool” throwing about profanity. Often it’s done to make
    oneself feel more powerful, “See, I can use these words if
    I want to, and nobody can make me stop”.
That being said, I’ve used it and continue on an infrequent basis to use it, when I get really mad as something (usually at something that I’ve just broken). I don’t intend to; it pops out, but I’m trying to eliminate such words from my vocabulary and am trying to develop, with the help of the Holy Spirit, better self-control.
 
If “oh-boy” is not intrinsically evil and the ‘stronger’ words are, what is the difference between them? This is a question that I cannot answer sufficiently to believe that you are correct, Grace. If one is intrinsically evil and the other is not, then there must be some big difference in their nature.

The problem is this: the only real difference I see is in their meaning (one being mild and the other being strong). The meaning of a word is not a static thing, however. Meanings of words are dynamic; they change and shift over time.

For something to be intrinsically evil, there must be something seriously wrong with its inseporable nature; a static property.

Thus, if profanity is intrinsically evil, if yould have been a sin for all people throughout history. But these exact words didn’t always exist. Different ones were used depending on where and when you look. If I say a nonsense word, if I commiting a venial sin because that word might become profane 500 years from now?

This is why I don’t think words in themselves can be intrinsically evil.

I think meanings can be bad. There will always be a way to insult someone with a single word. While the word changes through history, the meaning behing it does not. I think it is wrong to insult someone in such a way.

I would like to restate that I think profanity can be a sin. I think there are many people who have a problem with the amount of profanity they use. I think many young people have trouble distinguishing between appropriate and inappropriate times to use them (hence them being ‘adult’ words). I also think that these words are being watered down by over usage.

As an additional thought: Grace, if you truly believe me to be sinning when I use these words (I only use them in what I would call an appropriate situation), then please help me understand. I’m never entirely opposed to changing my views, but I require a superior argument to do so. I haven’t seen one yet.
 
Just because the rest of the guys in the locker room are creative at using the “f” word as a noun, verb, adverb, adjuctive and pro-noun doesn’t mean it’s cool to be part of the group.
:rotfl: I’ve seen it used like this as well.

You made a good post. All the situations you listed I would classify as an inappropriate uses, though. Here’s my take on an appropriate situation:
  1. The speaker is not insulting or offending anyone (including those not present).
  2. The speaker is mindful of present company (no children especially).
  3. The speaker isn’t trying to “be cool” or “fit in” (not motivated by peer pressure).
  4. The speaker isn’t going out of his way to use it (sometimes lesser words suffice).
  5. The speaker isn’t in the habit of using those words where it’s inappropriate (a former alcoholic avoids alcohol. The same principle applies here).
  6. The speaker remembers that he needs to be setting a good example and considers that profanity can detract from that goal.
I may have missed a few but I have to leave now. If I think of any more I will add them later.
 
Caesar…
I almost wanna say: “trust me on this one brother”, but you dont know me. Hopefully you know the Lord…
Do you have a prayer life? Do you study Scripture (eg. Jesus and Paul saying not to lead our brothers to fall by our example)…Do you have an idea about the holiness and purity of Jesus Christ and the calling that is upon your life to follow Him?

Do not answer these questions to me. But just think…
I feel no inclination to logically explain something that pertains to faith and conscience. The Holiness, Purity and Love of Christ is a Mystery… the anti-movement against this Mystery is logic used against the purposes of God.

I can only urge you to go out into nature and pray… look at the creation, at the skies… inside your own heart where you converse with the Heavenly Lover… look at the Cross and try then to explain to HIM all your justification of using profanity.
Then come back and talk to me about it.
I have had such a conversation with Him and it was painful… It matters to Him. Everything does…

Peace to you.
 
I’m no theologian, nor am I a linguist. So the following amounts to only my two cents worth – and if the Mint ever gets around to abolishing the penny, it won’t be worth a plug nickel.

My particular take:

I distinguish (in my mind) between blasphemy and vulgarity. Blasphemy is that which is covered by the Second Commandment, altho’ I also extend coverage to the Blessed Virgin. Since we’re dealing with an actually enumerated sin, intent is a factor. I will grant that in many instances, those who utter “OMG” or “JMJ” do so as an invocation or plea in trying circumstances; I will also state that I believe many use these utterances in the same spirit as other vulgar language: not as an invocation, but as an expression of frustration, rage, etc – i.e., in vain.

I will include the word “damn” here, as damning is solely the province of God; to curse someone, even in anger, is a sin against charity, at the mildest, I believe. To do so against an inanimate object, or to make a general curse (“dammit”), I think is a grey area, and circumstances (intent, people hearing it scandalized, etc) will dictate.

As for vulgarity: much of the vocabulary that is considered vulgar today was not at one time. I believe the first big shift came after the Norman invasion of England in 1066. Words which were perfectly acceptable became considered objectionable because they were deemed vulgar – i.e. used by the Anglo-Saxon rabble, as opposed to the more genteel Norman overlords. Note that most vulgar words today come from Anglo-Saxon stock, while their polite, euphemistic counterparts come to us from Latin via Norman French. So we have faeces/defecate instead of s***, urine/urinate instead of p***, etc (censorship mine). Sometimes, the euphemizing can get carried away: although politer, one does not “go urinate”; one rarely even “goes to the washroom” anymore, instead using euphemisms or jocularities such as “powder one’s nose” or “go see a man about a horse” or “go shed a tear for old Ireland”. I believe Miss Manners states that the most polite form is merely to “excuse oneself for a moment”.

I remember hearing a joke about the propriety of a venerable Southern matriarch. I do not remember the circumstance of the story, but at one point she stated:
“Women do not sweat, they perspire.
Ladies do not perspire, they glow.
I do not glow.”
You’ll note, too, that most vulgarity deals with bodily functions; in many cases, the discussion of same is not carried on in “polite company”, not even in good Norman euphemism (and definitely not in hearty Anglo-Saxon monosyllables).

Note that the “s-word” still survives (with more traditional pronunciation intact) in the words **cheapskate **and blatherskite. The “p-word” appears in early English translations of the Bible.

I think many of these words are used for their emotional impact. The Anglo-Saxonisms are, phonetically speaking, short-sharp-shock. They are monosyllabic, with short vowels, and use unvoiced sibilant, fricative, and plosive consonants. They are cacophonic, rather than euphonic. In other words, they “sound bad”.

Given that they were/are historically rejected from “polite” speech, they have also the “forbidden fruit” appeal; their (perceived) vulgarity gives them extra additional “oomph”, emotionally speaking. In other words, they “mean bad”.

Combined together, there is an emotional release, I think, being the verbal equivalent of punching a hole in the drywall, or in less extreme cases, popping bubble wrap. (hee hee hee bubble wrap!!!)😃

Now, I think the “F-word” is more problematic. The sexual act (as opposed to other bodily functions that lend themselves to vulgar use) has a sacred character that is demeaned by the use of all its associated vulgarities – the language in this case degrades the act, and becomes truly profane – as in its Latin origins, meaning “outside the Temple” or “desecrated”.

As for the sin involved: refer to Paul’s admonition (can’t remember the exact passage) about, say, eating food left for idols – i.e., it is not in and of itself unclean, but you shouldn’t if doing so leads another to sin. Also, check out Ephesians 5:3-4:
[sup]3[/sup]Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones, [sup]4[/sup]no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving.
 
I try not to curse.

However, I really do a lot of cursing when I’m angry or frustrated at something.

I’ve never really been bothered by an occasional utter of profanity.

But one of my biggest complaints is that I hate it when it’s censored in a movie. For example, Sci-fi channel does it all the time when they show a horror movie, but they don’t censor out the gore.

I figure if you have to censor something you might as well not show it.

It makes absolutely no sense to me why someone would get really super upset over an utterance of profanity yet not be upset at the gore in those movies. To me, those people are the real children.
 
I feel no inclination to logically explain something that pertains to faith and conscience. The Holiness, Purity and Love of Christ is a Mystery… the anti-movement against this Mystery is logic used against the purposes of God.
Rest assured that I spend almost all of my quiet time in deep thought, when the Holy Spirit is present. There’s nothing better than a deep theological issue with complex moral puzzles to be worked out. 😉

I think logic is a gift from God that we are meant to use in an effort to find truth in every aspect of our lives. We are given many such tools. I think we need to be wary of relying solely on one tool, but I don’t think they ever contradict eachother (I know that I have a tendency to rely on logic before anything else).

So far, logic is telling me that profanity is not intrinsically evil. Catholic apologists seem to be agreeing. I have spent time in deep thought, but never found anything substantial that would suggest I am incorrect in my conclusion.

So far you haven’t directly responded to any of the points I have made. You haven’t really provided an argument on your behalf (not all arguments are based on logic, there are many other methods for you to choose from). Every method I have used has pointed to the same conclusion. I know that you mean well and I am geniunely grateful for your concern. I would be willing to change my views, but so far my arguments stand.
 
Rest assured that I spend almost all of my quiet time in deep thought, when the Holy Spirit is present. There’s nothing better than a deep theological issue with complex moral puzzles to be worked out. 😉

I think logic is a gift from God that we are meant to use in an effort to find truth in every aspect of our lives. We are given many such tools. I think we need to be wary of relying solely on one tool, but I don’t think they ever contradict eachother (I know that I have a tendency to rely on logic before anything else).

So far, logic is telling me that profanity is not intrinsically evil. Catholic apologists seem to be agreeing. I have spent time in deep thought, but never found anything substantial that would suggest I am incorrect in my conclusion.

So far you haven’t directly responded to any of the points I have made. You haven’t really provided an argument on your behalf (not all arguments are based on logic, there are many other methods for you to choose from). Every method I have used has pointed to the same conclusion. I know that you mean well and I am geniunely grateful for your concern. I would be willing to change my views, but so far my arguments stand.
I have noticed no other direct demand from you than that I should be able to explain by means of logic why profanity is viewed by me and others as a sin. I have declined to do so.
What I have is faith. Faith in Jesus and His message and therefore the existense of sins… and I dont get to put them into categories or decide what I want to call them…
What was intrinsically evil thousand years ago is also now… or it was never in the first place.
Instead I have told you my testimony twice… my experience with the Lord, my conscience that I believe to be consistent with Scripture on this point. You have given no such argument that for me weights heavier than play with words and theoretical speculation.
I dont see why your use of reason to say that profanity is no sin is better than my arguments… especially after your post where you said what criteria should be present in order to use such language. upon reading them through I thought: “my brother has just given himself the answer because he cannot fulfill the criteria ever to use the foul language…” especially the thing with causing scandal… coz you never know if some guy in your audience will pick up your words and take them to another audience…
Your logic is formed by your own will and subjective motives as I see it.
Even if I cannot always live up to the calling of Christ to be perfect I know to admit it when I act a way that is not worthy.
Maybe you should stop thinking deep thoughts and listen to the Holy Spirit… He speaks much clearer than logic reasoning and the clarity of His will cuts like a sword that takes all that is idle and superfluous away so you are left with the simple truth.

Answer this if you want. I will read it but not reply. We have each given our oppinion and lets leave it in peace then.
 
:rotfl: I’ve seen it used like this as well.

You made a good post. All the situations you listed I would classify as an inappropriate uses, though. Here’s my take on an appropriate situation:
  1. The speaker is not insulting or offending anyone (including those not present).
  2. The speaker is mindful of present company (no children especially).
  3. The speaker isn’t trying to “be cool” or “fit in” (not motivated by peer pressure).
  4. The speaker isn’t going out of his way to use it (sometimes lesser words suffice).
  5. The speaker isn’t in the habit of using those words where it’s inappropriate (a former alcoholic avoids alcohol. The same principle applies here).
  6. The speaker remembers that he needs to be setting a good example and considers that profanity can detract from that goal.
I may have missed a few but I have to leave now. If I think of any more I will add them later.
That doesn’t leave many circumstances. 🙂

I used to sit and marvel at the ease and frequency that such words were thown out…all with correct tenses and grammar. :eek:
 
Okay… so what it comes down to is this.
You don’t see foul language as “intrinsically evil” whereas I do. I think the devil claps his hands when ever someone uses bad language, especially if its a Christian, because its so far from what we were created to do and to whom we were called to be in the image and likeness of God.
At the same time you make it a matter of intention only. I need not tell you that “good” or “neutral” intentions are also in play when we talk about homosexual acts, premarital sex, use of condoms, abortion etc.
Our intentions do not define right and wrong.
And we often need to be told … by parents and priests and teachers that what we thought was okay was not okay.

So, we have to agree to disagree. But thanks for the discussion.
God bless and peace,
Grace <><
Just something to consider…if your in the gutter evangelizing, then perhaps your should speak the language of your audience? In my experience ( working with people constantly), people respond very well if you can mimic their nuances and language…including dropping the odd F bomb…

Just my opinion, but then again, I relate very well to anyone and can hold a strong conversation with a street kid, developmentally delayed person or even a doctor…I’m able to change my tone and language based upon my audience.

Swearing is communicating whether you like it or not, sometimes it’s the only way some people are able to express themselves, but
what makes cursing wrong is how or where it is used…and as far as I’m concerned, no big deal if used in the proper context and situation.
 
Just something to consider…if your in the gutter evangelizing, then perhaps your should speak the language of your audience? In my experience ( working with people constantly), people respond very well if you can mimic their nuances and language…including dropping the odd F bomb…
…except now you’re going to get the “if the people you’re evangelizing were into pornography, would you mimic them in order to help them feel like you fit in” sort of argument. And of course the answer is no, absolutely not. Your argument is resting on the assumption that “strong language” is not an intrinsic evil… which apparently not everyone here agrees with. :rolleyes:
 
…except now you’re going to get the “if the people you’re evangelizing were into pornography, would you mimic them in order to help them feel like you fit in” sort of argument. And of course the answer is no, absolutely not. Your argument is resting on the assumption that “strong language” is not an intrinsic evil… which apparently not everyone here agrees with. :rolleyes:
Bit of a stretch…don’t you think?

I maintain, you have to be able to communicate with your audience and that does not mean engaging in the same activities that they do…it simply means that sometimes you may have to get down in the gutter with them and speak the language of the street or the language that they are comfortable with.

If your talking to a drug addict, no one is suggesting that you have to do drugs with them ( as you are oddly inferring) but you may have to speak to them in a manner that makes them comfortable…or you can speak to them with the Queens English and see how far you get!😃
 
Bit of a stretch…don’t you think?
Yeah… but it’s an extreme example of the same logic. 😛
I maintain, you have to be able to communicate with your audience and that does not mean engaging in the same activities that they do…it simply means that sometimes you may have to get down in the gutter with them and speak the language of the street or the language that they are comfortable with.
Right, but I’m just saying the response you’ll be getting to this will be a solid “the ends doesn’t justify the means” lecture. If “vulgar language” is intrinsically evil, then engaging in it for the sake of achieving a good (communication) wouldn’t be acceptable. 😉
 
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