What's the Problem with Profanity?

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I don’t see how this applies in situations where no one is offended or where it is used in an appropriate context. Swearing is a means of communication and a means of expression.

What’s the difference between saying ’ Golly gee or shucks ’ and saying a big F! The point is that the speaker is intending to express dismay and they are making their own choice to decide what is morally right or what is not objectionable.

The speaker by saying “shucks” , according to their moral compass, is better than dropping an F bomb, but either way, they are expressing a negative emotion through the english language and are not intending to offend or insult anyone…

Either way, no big deal…
Again… try applying your logic to other sins… like, some say the same things about extra marital sex: Its an expression of an emotion through physical language and English words as well… not intended to offend anyone. Just a one night stand involving two people who both understand that… No big deal…

Sorry… but it is a big deal. In the spiritual realm and only there is the Truth known about the enourmous importance of every act of ours.
I am pretty sure we will stand infront of the Lord one day and feel really bad about whatever bad word we ever uttered…
The world says " no big deal"…
The Christian should say: everything matters. Nothing is too small for the Lord.

So die to your self and your self-righteous clinging on to sin. Yes sin… As is written in the Word: Everything that is not of Christ is sin.
You have been given severel other Biblical quotes as well. Profanity is soo far away from Christ’s behaviour. YOU KNOW IT.
And you are called to imitate Him.

Dont bargain with the devil.
And… to the one who used the story of the one out of several millions psychologically challenged , cursing guy.
It serves no example…
Besides… would Jesus have healed a man in this manner? NO. You know it.
I am sorry, but sin is never excused… not even to help others. God will open ways for his disciples where they can help without using foul language… maybe that person did not ask Christ for help.
Many young women have sex with their boyfriend because they feel sorry for the guy if they dont. That might make them less culpable, but its does not take their sin away… sin needs to be forgiven and repented of.

You all may find me too radical… but to me it really is that simple. I am not saying we are perfect… but I do urge everyone to at least admit when something is just not right.

🙂
 
You never respond to my points.

If you say Golly Gee, instead of the F word when you stub your toe…your Golly Gee takes on the same meaning as the F word. You are expressing it in order to signal that you are less than pleased.

I don’t see why the F word is a sin for me and Shucks is Ok. If Shucks is what a person uses instead of the F word…the difference is that the universal definition is different, yet one is more socially acceptable than the other…they both are a means of expressing displeasure.

What you are doing is you are creating your very own hierarchy of what is a sin and what is Ok…again, all based on what your social circle deems ok. Maybe to an ultra scrupulous person, maybe saying " shucks ’ is a horrible curse word.

God gave us emotions and if I express my emotions with a curse word…then so be it…I’ve made my bed and do intend on sleeping in it.

Besides, sometimes a carefully placed curse word can make a joke absolutely hysterical. 👍
 
You never respond to my points.

In fact I believe I already have both directly and indirectly. I am sorry if you missed earlier posts of mine and regret if I have failed to make my self more clear.

If you say Golly Gee, instead of the F word when you stub your toe…your Golly Gee takes on the same meaning as the F word. You are expressing it in order to signal that you are less than pleased.

you can signal you are less than pleased in a variety of ways, some being sinful, some not. The same way you can express high sexual drive by saying “whoa! Jesus please help me. I have strong sexual urges now”, or you can start masturbating. The same tension, emotion, need to communicate but two different results, One pleasing to God and one not.

I** don’t see why the F word is a sin for me and Shucks is Ok. If Shucks is what a person uses instead of the F word…the difference is that the universal definition is different, yet one is more socially acceptable than the other…they both are a means of expressing displeasure**.

Yes, and the universal difinition IS different. Such as a curse is different from a blessing in much more than what it expresses… Converted people choose to use other words or sounds to express sudden discomfort or joy than bad language. It takes disciplin, but its the only way to go if you want to follow Christ in this area of life.

What you are doing is you are creating your very own hierarchy of what is a sin and what is Ok…

No sir. In fact you are.

again, all based on what your social circle deems ok. Maybe to an ultra scrupulous person, maybe saying " shucks ’ is a horrible curse word.

If I would speak like my “circle” I would be using the f word many times a day and swearing and cursing. However, I find my self totally comfortable with using words that are worthy of the presense of Christ, also when I am with people who dont know Him.
In fact my criteria and authority is this: What would Jesus do?
My family does not curse, they however use profanity with out being critical towards their language to see if it is the language of a disciple. As for me I use profanity too sometimes… it comes out suddenly when I am hurt eg. but I am woman enough to admit that it should change according to what I now call my self: a Christian… If I say I am being transformed by Christ but my language stays the same then I am fooling my self.

God gave us emotions and if I express my emotions with a curse word…then so be it…I’ve made my bed and do intend on sleeping in it.

Humble your self and repent. Jesus calls you to let your self be transformed to be more Christ-like.

Besides, sometimes a carefully placed curse word can make a joke absolutely hysterical.

However, who is laughing at that humor? Is it the angels? or is it men of flesh?

peace
 
“Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.”
Ephesians 5:4
No foul language should come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for needed edification, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
Ephesians 4:29
But now you must put them all away: 5 anger, fury, malice, slander, and obscene language out of your mouths.
Colossians 3:8
For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by the human species, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. This need not be so, my brothers. Does a spring gush forth from the same opening both pure and brackish water? Can a fig tree, my brothers, produce olives, or a grapevine figs? Neither can salt water yield fresh.
James 3:9-12

Perhaps some words may be acceptable. However, one that seems to be coming up quite frequently is the “F-word”. To me, saying this word is wrong because in our culture it is used to refer to sexual intercourse in a derogatory and vulgar way. To refer to sex, which God gave us as something beautiful and something that helps us see him, is indeed wrong.

Would you curse in front of our Lord Jesus Christ? Does anyone find it acceptable that our Lord should be placed upon a tongue that utters profanities? For me personally, the answer to both of these question is an easy no. Let us then not curse in the presence of our brothers and sister, so that we do not curse in the presence of the Lord within them, and let us not curse so as not to defile the place where we receive our Lord in Holy Communion.
 
Again Grace, you have been give 3 sources that say it is not a sin therefor all of your analogy to other sins not not applicable because it ** is not one**. The burden of proof is on you to say it is in fact a sin.
 
Again Grace, you have been give 3 sources that say it is not a sin therefor all of your analogy to other sins not not applicable because it ** is not one**. The burden of proof is on you to say it is in fact a sin.
Look at Kevins post.
He quotes Scripture, There you can see what is worthy behaviour for a Christian.
I have seen none of the authority that you refer to that you say you have given or quoted trice.
Also I can honestly say that if the Catholic Church taught that foul language was okay like you say then she would not be the true Church founded by Christ.
Now she is, and she calls us to repentance and holiness because the Lord is Holy and she is united with Him…
I have meet very few actual believers who thought they dont need to change their language so that it praises God instead of the flesh, the world and the devil who was a liar from the beginning.

For me also the question is rather simple. There has never been a shadow of a doubt since I met Christ (I mean really met Him) that profanity and other vulgar talk is indeed unholy and not fitting for a man that calls himself a Christian.
I thought everyone agreed until I saw this thread.

Answer me but one question - and all the logic in the world wont convince me to defend sin with you - :
Would Christ ever use profanity for any purpose? Would He use the f word to reach a sinner?

In our time of reductionism beware lest you see actions and words merely as empty structures into which you can put whatever meaning you want.
 
This will be a long post.
And… to the one who used the story of the one out of several millions psychologically challenged , cursing guy.
It serves no example…
Besides… would Jesus have healed a man in this manner? NO. You know it.
I think Jesus would have healed him by saying, “be healed”. I think it is an example of God working through a man to heal another man (even if it is unusual).
Many young women have sex with their boyfriend because they feel sorry for the guy if they dont. That might make them less culpable, but its does not take their sin away… sin needs to be forgiven and repented of.
We all agree that sex outside of marriage is a sin, while sex inside of marriage is not… Could there be a comparrison? Perhaps profane words in the wrong situation are a sin, while profane words in the right situation are not. 😉
…I do urge everyone to at least admit when something is just not right.
You haven’t proven it yet.

I think it’s time for a recap. Grace, you have offered these agruments:
  1. Jesus didn’t use profanity. We should be like Jesus. Theredore, we should not use profanity. [post #12]
My reaction: Jesus also didn’t get married or have sex. Does this mean that we also should not get married or have sex? Just because Jesus didn’t do something, doesn’t necessarily mean we shouldn’t do it.
  1. Either something is wrong and you don’t do it at any time at any place… or its okay and its okay for everyone at any time, okay? [post #26]
My reaction: There are many morraly neutral actions that can be sinful or not. Intentions and context are critical.
  1. I don’t like it and I don’t feel comfortable when other people use it. [post #35]
My reaction: That’s terrific for you, but it doesn’t really help anyone else.
Okay… so what it comes down to is this.
You don’t see foul language as “intrinsically evil” whereas I do.
Yep.
If an apologist says that using such words anywhere is okay then I must respectfully disagree. He is not my authority. Even if the Magisterium said otherwise I must follow my conscience…
Again, that’s great for you, but it doesn’t really help anyone else.
Caesar…
I almost wanna say: “trust me on this one brother”, but you dont know me. Hopefully you know the Lord…
Do you have a prayer life? Do you study Scripture (eg. Jesus and Paul saying not to lead our brothers to fall by our example)…Do you have an idea about the holiness and purity of Jesus Christ and the calling that is upon your life to follow Him?

Do not answer these questions to me. But just think…
I feel no inclination to logically explain something that pertains to faith and conscience. The Holiness, Purity and Love of Christ is a Mystery… the anti-movement against this Mystery is logic used against the purposes of God.

I can only urge you to go out into nature and pray… look at the creation, at the skies… inside your own heart where you converse with the Heavenly Lover… look at the Cross and try then to explain to HIM all your justification of using profanity.
Then come back and talk to me about it.
I have had such a conversation with Him and it was painful… It matters to Him. Everything does…

Peace to you.
I felt a little offended at this post, to be honest. Nevertheless, you seem to be saying that you can’t/won’t prove that profanity is intrinsically evil. You are telling me that I will understand if I pray. :mad:
I don’t see how logic can be used “against the purpoes of God.” God gave us logic as a means to seek truth.

My arguments for why profane words are not intrinsically evil are contained in these posts:
------------------------------------------------^
------------------------------------------------^
------------------------------------------------^
This AAA question supports my case: Is profanity a mortal sin?

I would truly love to see someone refute my arguments. If we cold start aguing these things, this thread would go somewhere. So far, no one has really responded to them.
 
Answer me but one question - and all the logic in the world wont convince me to defend sin with you - :
Would Christ ever use profanity for any purpose? Would He use the f word to reach a sinner?
Can you prove that he didn’t? 😛
 
Can you prove that he didn’t? 😛
I really feel a knife in me when I hear you even suggest something like this… to even suggest that Jesus would talk profane or dirty…

I am really shocked that any Catholic will suggest this.
But maybe I am over-sensitive. Then so be it… I was not like this some years ago… I read a book back then where Jesus was described having sex with someone… and I did not feel anything was wrong with that. But since I met Him I always feel torn when people abuse Him for their own purposes.
I feel right now like I do when people in my culture say Christ might have run off with Mary of Magdala, or “maybe he was a homosexual” etc… I have heard all these things from people that want to pull Christ down into the mud that humanity is in… they cannot understand His holiness and that He is higher.

You know… it is not written in the Bible whether Jesus did in fact have kids or was a homosexual etc… so maybe you want to believe that “maybe He was”… maybe you want to make Jesus be like you: using degraded language, instead of you becoming like Jesus. I have come across that same tendency in liberal protestantism… fornicators say Jesus dont mind their sin… women pastors say Jesus want them to be pastors etc. etc. it all fits neetly into the subjective wishes of individuals: whom they perceive Jesus to be and how He acted. Thus humans create an idol in their own image and likeness.

If you are offended that I say you should pray and ask God about your view on profanity then I am sorry. But I hope you do it anyway. Forget about me… and forget about your logic etc… and yes - I do believe your logic sense is highly effected by original sin… so look solely at Christ. What would He do?

You say that I havent proven that foul talk is intricically evil… read the post of Kevin for references from the Bible and say that such is neutral… You cannot. And you havent proven anything your self. If you had we would not still be having this discussion. Your analysis is based on your logic… many people here disagree with the results of that logic.
As for you and me: we simply disagree on what sin is… and it can’t be solved. Because human knowlege is nothing compared to God’s wisdom. But the closest we get to understanding it is looking at Christ in his glorious, pure life and seek to imitate Him. And He did not sin (celibacy is not a sin but neither is marriage) … Now if you look at Jesus and say He might have spoken profane words then you and I dont even have the same concept of Christ and who He is as I do. Therefore we cannot understand each other even if we try.

Since you so neatly sum up my points maybe you could sum up yours… I find that I have adressed them all but maybe I over looked some. Another theory is that we simply do not understand each other and have different concepts of Christ and of sin… this is what I tend to believe now and why I say we wont get any futher with this discussion.

We only end up feeling indignated at what the other is saying which is the beginning of debate that always destroy the peace… and I dont want to debate you.

Peace.
 
Ohh… single bible quotes with no context to try and prove a point.
Ephesians 5:4
“Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.”
Theres a part in that you seem to just gloss over.

“Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.”

This reads to me that situation and intent mater, not necessarily the words.
Ephesians 4:29
“No foul language should come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for needed edification, that it may impart grace to those who hear.”
My translation says this:

“Let no Evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.”

Blasphemy would be evil talk, cussing someone out could be considered evil talk, speaking in anger regardless of the words you use. Some of the most hurtful things I’ve ever said or heard had not one single swear word in it and could have been sinful.
Colossians 3:8
But now you must put them all away: 5 anger, fury, malice, slander, and obscene language out of your mouths.
Again I can think of lots of obscene language that would in fact be wrong that have none of the words you object too.
James 3:9-12
For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by the human species, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. This need not be so, my brothers. Does a spring gush forth from the same opening both pure and brackish water? Can a fig tree, my brothers, produce olives, or a grapevine figs? Neither can salt water yield fresh.
See above.
Would you curse in front of our Lord Jesus Christ? Does anyone find it acceptable that our Lord should be placed upon a tongue that utters profanities? For me personally, the answer to both of these question is an easy no. Let us then not curse in the presence of our brothers and sister, so that we do not curse in the presence of the Lord within them, and let us not curse so as not to defile the place where we receive our Lord in Holy Communion.
No, cussing in front of Our Lord would be disrespectful. Just like I would not wear a swim suit to mass.

How acceptable is it when Our Lord is placed on the tongue of someone using ABC or is in the state of Mortal Sin?

Judged not, lest ye be judged.
 
Again… try applying your logic to other sins…
Sorry, but this made me laugh… 🙂
  1. Your reference to “other sins”…the implication here already being that it is a sin.
  2. Your appeal to logic. (Just keep this in mind, and keep reading.)
Sorry… but it is a big deal.
Sorry… but it’s not. At least not in all circumstances.
If you want to argue that it’s an imperfection, then fine. But that it’s a sin… nope, sorry.
I am pretty sure we will stand infront of the Lord one day and feel really bad about whatever bad word we ever uttered…
I’m pretty sure we’re not going to care. At all. I think we’ll be far, far more concerned about our real sins than our human imperfections. >> And at the same time, I’m NOT saying that we shouldn’t try to eliminate our imperfections… of course we should, and you’ve got some fine arguments as far as that goes. BUT I’m not about to agree that all imperfections are sins, either.
As is written in the Word: Everything that is not of Christ is sin.

There has never been a shadow of a doubt since I met Christ (I mean really met Him)…
No offense, honestly, but I’ve been wondering… were you, by chance, raised as a Protestant? :hmmm:
YOU KNOW IT.
NO. You know it.
Well… apparently not. 😛
I am sorry, but sin is never excused… not even to help others.
I called this one! 😃 See post 58 and the second half of post 60. …bottom of Page 4.
Answer me but one question - and all the logic in the world wont convince me to defend sin with you…
:rotfl: …there it is. Logic comes up again. And this time, it’s not be good enough.
So now we need more emotional appeals, more appeals to conscience, and more of the same Scripture verses that aren’t necessarily any more conclusive.
I agree, we’re really not getting anywhere, are we? :rolleyes:
Would Christ ever use profanity for any purpose? Would He use the f word to reach a sinner?
Well, obviously He wouldn’t have to. And furthermore, since He’s perfect, I can’t exactly see how an imperfection such as “foul language” would be present in Him. BUT IT DOES NOT THEN FOLLOW that “foul language”, at least under the limited conditions that we’ve been talking about, is a sin. It’s not. At the very worst, it’s an imperfection. Not a sin.
 
You never respond to my points.

If you say Golly Gee, instead of the F word when you stub your toe…your Golly Gee takes on the same meaning as the F word. You are expressing it in order to signal that you are less than pleased.

I don’t see why the F word is a sin for me and Shucks is Ok. If Shucks is what a person uses instead of the F word…the difference is that the universal definition is different, yet one is more socially acceptable than the other…they both are a means of expressing displeasure.

What you are doing is you are creating your very own hierarchy of what is a sin and what is Ok…again, all based on what your social circle deems ok. Maybe to an ultra scrupulous person, maybe saying " shucks ’ is a horrible curse word.

God gave us emotions and if I express my emotions with a curse word…then so be it…I’ve made my bed and do intend on sleeping in it.

Besides, sometimes a carefully placed curse word can make a joke absolutely hysterical. 👍
Sadly, this is a perfect example of What’s-The-Big-Deal-ism. It’s also called relativism. It’s also called justification.

As a priest wrote: “We do no charity when we justify someone in their sin.”

Get over it. The answer is black and white. Profanity is a sin. It is not to be excused, it is not to be justified. If Catholics can teach a five year old not to use bad words and to avoid sin, that still applies when they become adults.

God bless,
Ed

Open the door for the devil and inch and before you know it, everything is OK.
 
I really feel a knife in me when I hear you even suggest something like this… to even suggest that Jesus would talk profane or dirty…
I’m pretty sure it was a joke. Relax.

And BEFORE you go off on the whole “that’s not something you should be joking about” speech, that’s NOT what I’m saying. The humor in the joke did not lie in the idea of Christ speaking foul language, but rather in the fact that proving a negative is impossible. The “prove that He didn’t” argument is an illogical fallacy, and I think we all understand that. But that’s why it was funny. Because Caesar517 was, playfully, sticking out a blatant fallacy that only a fool would use in defense of our position. Hence the (:p) smiley face.

I truly, truly doubt that Caesar517 thinks that Christ spoke that way. Relax.
 
Sadly, this is a perfect example of What’s-The-Big-Deal-ism. It’s also called relativism. It’s also called justification.

As a priest wrote: “We do no charity when we justify someone in their sin.”

Get over it. The answer is black and white. Profanity is a sin. It is not to be excused, it is not to be justified. If Catholics can teach a five year old not to use bad words and to avoid sin, that still applies when they become adults.

God bless,
Ed

Open the door for the devil and inch and before you know it, everything is OK.
We teach children not to cuss, 'cause its not appropriate for children. We also don’t let children play with fire, not because fire is bad but because they are children and do not understand fully the correct uses for it.

Making up your own sins out side of what the church actually teach is a step in the wrong direction.

Is saying “I love you” a sin? If its to my husband; no, its a very good thing. If it was to my extramarital lover, it would be a grave sin. Its not the words, its the intent behind the words that matter.
 
I really feel a knife in me when I hear you even suggest something like this… to even suggest that Jesus would talk profane or dirty…
I didn’t say He did use it. If you are going to use “Jesus didn’t do it” as an argument, you need to be able to support that claim (not by proof, but did he say anything definitive about it?). I listed other problem I have with the “Jesus didn’t do it” argument.
You say that I havent proven that foul talk is intricically evil… read the post of Kevin for references from the Bible and say that such is neutral… You cannot.
See LJN21’s post. I have also argued that words themselves cannot be intrinsically evil.
And you havent proven anything your self.
Catholic apologists seem to support me. The burden of proof is on you.
Your analysis is based on your logic… many people here disagree with the results of that logic.
Many people also agree with it. What does that prove?
As for you and me: we simply disagree on what sin is… and it can’t be solved. Because human knowlege is nothing compared to God’s wisdom.
We haven’t even discussed what sin is. We have been discussing whether profanity is intrinsically evil.
We only end up feeling indignated at what the other is saying which is the beginning of debate that always destroy the peace… and I dont want to debate you.
I’m sorry if you have been feeling indignated at what I’m saying. I’m in this discussion to seek the truth of the matter. You are quite set in your opinion, but you have done nothing substantial to prove it.

If you can’t use logic to prove your point, can you find a bible quote that sayssomething to the extent of: “any word that society considers profane at the time is intrinsically evil and cannot be used under any circumstances, without exception.”

The only bible quotes that have been provided so far speak against impurity, rudeness, and insulting others. I completely agree with them.
 
Sadly, this is a perfect example of What’s-The-Big-Deal-ism. It’s also called relativism. It’s also called justification.
Well, sadly, what I think we’re dealing with here is the result of a slightly-too-scrupulous conscience, in which no distinction is being made between sins that violate the moral law, and imperfections (of whatever magnitude) that are not sins.
Get over it. The answer is black and white. Profanity is a sin.
No, it is not black and white. For one, I have yet to see an actual Catholic apologist defending your position. And for two, not everything is black and white, as you seem to love to say. Most things in the moral code are, yes, but not all. This has nothing to do with relativism, and everything to do with the fact that we are dealing with some grey area here, a not-very-well-defined issue over which even faithful Catholics disagree, whether you want to admit it or not.
It is not to be excused, it is not to be justified.
If it’s an imperfection, not a sin, then yes, it can be excused and justified, up to a certain point.
 
As a person who has heard some of the most exquisite cussing in the English, French, and German languages and who was asked at age 28 when I had been in the Navy because my mates thought I could swear like a sailor, I have but one more question and then a statement.

If the kind of language in question is no big deal, why is it considered necessary to limit children’s exposure to and use of it?

I am not perfect, but I have cleaned up my act considerably. I find it difficult to respect and think highly of persons whose every other word is a curse, an obscenity. or some kind of scatological expression. They come across as crude, and while they may be highly intelligent, somewhat deficient in what it takes to be a real Mensch. As far as it being a serious sin, sometimes it certainly is and sometimes ranges to merely being left wanting for a better word, i.e. limited vocabulary. Despite my past bad habit in this regard, today I actually cringe when I hear it and would have to say most if not all those I hear are mediocre performers when it comes to swearing; absolute lack of creativity…
 
As a person who has heard some of the most exquisite cussing in the English, French, and German languages and who was asked at age 28 when I had been in the Navy because my mates thought I could swear like a sailor, I have but one more question and then a statement.

If the kind of language in question is no big deal, why is it considered necessary to limit children’s exposure to and use of it?

I am not perfect, but I have cleaned up my act considerably. I find it difficult to respect and think highly of persons whose every other word is a curse, an obscenity. or some kind of scatological expression. They come across as crude, and while they may be highly intelligent, somewhat deficient in what it takes to be a real Mensch. As far as it being a serious sin, sometimes it certainly is and sometimes ranges to merely being left wanting for a better word, i.e. limited vocabulary. Despite my past bad habit in this regard, today I actually cringe when I hear it and would have to say most if not all those I hear are mediocre performers when it comes to swearing; absolute lack of creativity…
Your talking about your personal moral code, your personal societal preferences…neither of which speaks of sin.

I can respect a person who isn’t afraid to drop a swear word, when used appropriately and with the proper audience.

I’m sorry that you consider me to be a mediocre performer and a person with a complete lack of creativity. 👍
 
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