What's the Problem with Profanity?

[onetimeposter]

Swearing cannot be intrinsically evil, as it is simply a means of communicating.

Does anyone around these boards know anything about a traditional swear word in French Canada.

Tabernac - That’s right, Tabernacle…I’m to believe that tabernacle is an intrinsically evil word…because to about 7 million Quebecers and millions more Canadians who are aware of this curse,tabernac or tabernak is a swear word.

or calice - ( chalice) or tonnes of other Catholic rooted words.

You think I’m making this up? Google it.

These Catholic words have been adapted by an entire culture to take on a meaning where it is used as a curse word in one context and it is used in the Catholic liturgy in the other…a slight change in the slang spelling,but the word absolutely rooted in Catholic liturgy.

So, how can a curse word be intrinsically evil for these words…when they mean two different things and one is Holy?

Explain that and maybe I’ll believe your argument that all curse words are intrinsically evil…You have to think outside of the box sometimes, everything isn’t always black and white. Some cultures don’t use the traditional english swear words that you are talking about.

You say Calice to a person from France and he’ll think your talking about a Chalice…You say that to a Quebecer, I guarantee he’ll think your swearing…

Tabernac to a person from France…Your talking about a Tabernacle, you say Tabernac to a Quebecer, it’s as strong a swear word as the F bomb.

It is based upon context, meaning and how it is used.

You cannot blanket all words as being good or bad.

 

[edwest2]

More maybe-ism, who-can-say-ism, and now, vague-ism.

To the Catholic in the United States, things are primarily black and white. Only the secular want things to be grey.

Peace,
Ed

 

[masterjedi747]

To the Catholic in the United States…

…only to Catholics in the United States?

…things are primarily black and white. Only the secular want things to be grey.

What are “things”, in this context? I mean, objective moral truths are, as you say, primarily black and white… but even then, not always. Particular instances of sin, on the other hand, are often far less certain, since we can’t know the state of another person’s soul. Step outside the realm of Divinely Revealed truth from the Church, and things go rapidly downhill into the realm of opinion (even if of a high degree of certainty)… etc.

 

[rwoehmke]

I find this post really discouraging. You spend the time saying what a bunch of hypocrites you have been… taking foul words into your mouths except from in front of women… you don’t respect the Lord more than a woman? All you boys did this and even friars… and then in the end you suddenly go off at girls who talk bad? What, now you are the one to say at what degree bad turns bad?
This is just so hypocritical…

Either something is wrong and you don’t do it at any time at any place… or its okay and its okay for everyone at any time, okay?

Please say you agree… I really can’t understand what I am seeing here. I hope there is some misunderstanding.
We as women are expected to see the man as the spiritual head of the household and then when we are not around they say words that are not worthy of anyone who has been converted by Christ… What is going on?
And those frias… what ever title they have I do not care for titles… what they did was wrong.

But the truth has been said by Jesus Christ : **No one is good **but God.
I just wish people would stop trying to explain sin away and get down on their knees in repentance.

Yes, I must have confused you. What I was telling about happened over 50 years ago. The Friars thwemselves did not speak profanely, but they tolerated it in us. In retrospect I know it was not a wise action on their part, but that is the way it was. The young girls I spoke about are now. Over that 50 years my wife and I had and raised 6 children. I worked hard to clean up my act and today rarely slip up. I certainly did not mean to justify my past or those “Friars” . I was just reporting facts. mea culpa

 

[rwoehmke]

Actually GraceDK has a point. I have worked in the past on several evangelization teams. One of our team, a male, would sometimes drop a hl or dn and the like into his presentation for emphasis. I can tell you in that setting it was jarring and sat my teeth on edge. I even felt as leader of the team an obligation to point it out to him as being rather inappropriate. Here we are trying to help people commit their lives to our Lord and… you get the idea. I don’t think it was any serious sin and I am thinking it was so habitual in his everyday speaking that he was probably unaware of using those jarring words. If I recall there was even one or two occasions when one of our listeners mentioned it to me.

My mother always said,“There are enough words in the English language that you don’t have to use scatological terms to express yourself.” Never said it was a sin, but certainly felt that a person of quality didn’t speak in that manner.

 

[Kitteh]

The only “profanity” I use most often is “crp". Once I have let slip "st" or "f” but it was while I was working and trying to find a solution to a problem, so I wasn’t really thinking about what I was saying.

I’ve become completely numbed to foul language, because I hear it constantly in my workplace, especially when I work with carpenters. The most common word I hear is the f-word, and it no longer shocks me when I hear it. I don’t have a problem with it unless it is being spoken around families with children or around older people. There’s a time and a place for language.

 

[Newbie2]

Just something to consider…if your in the gutter evangelizing, then perhaps your should speak the language of your audience? In my experience ( working with people constantly), people respond very well if you can mimic their nuances and language…including dropping the odd F bomb…

I sort of wonder about that as well…how far to take St. Paul’s advice or example about relating to one’s audience. Methinks there is a point when one can take this too far.

 

[GraceDK]

Just something to consider…if your in the gutter evangelizing, then perhaps your should speak the language of your audience? In my experience ( working with people constantly), people respond very well if you can mimic their nuances and language…including dropping the odd F bomb…

Just my opinion, but then again, I relate very well to anyone and can hold a strong conversation with a street kid, developmentally delayed person or even a doctor…I’m able to change my tone and language based upon my audience.

Swearing is communicating whether you like it or not, sometimes it’s the only way some people are able to express themselves, but
what makes cursing wrong is how or where it is used…and as far as I’m concerned, no big deal if used in the proper context and situation.

Dear friend.

I find your points rather void of wisdom.
You would speak really bad language in order to get close to people so you can give them the Gospel. I dont believe in such an approach at all. I find it repulsive to say the least.
In my country I know Christians getting drunk on bear with their palls in order to be able “to communicate” and not seem judgemental… but at that point as well as with profanity you do it not for God but for your self… you want to be recognized so you sell out on truth in order to be acceptable in the eyes of men. However… unbelievers will never respect you because of the F-bomb… they will respect you if you actually manage to be COOL while still being a man of integrity and dignity.

In the Bible its written that we should not go and get drunk but get “high” on the Holy Spirit…
You say that foul language is communication. Yes it is… a poor one though. Just like premarital sex is also communication…
Did Jesus use the F-bomb?
I tell you if He had done so in order to please me or anyone I would have said: “get outta here you false prophet!”
Have met Christians that had a pure vocabulary and who managed to make all kinds of friends because they had awesome personalities and a lot of energy and love. these bring out my respect because they are what they say and they dont sell out on truth.
When you Evangelise for truth and think it does not matter how you get to the goal then you appear as someone who is too insecure to really be set apart, as the Lord calls us to be.
Sometimes the only way broken human beings are able to express themselves and communicate is through curses, casual sex and empty talk… Dont do engage in ANY of these in order to get through to human beings but talk to them without condemnation about the holiness and love they are called for. Teach them better communication-
Stand solid in Christ and you will have something that really attracts people much more than the momentary interest they have when they see yet another Christian trying desperately to fit in and become just like everyone else.
Christ does not want profanity spoken for His glory. He does not NEED that, I assure you.

Peace.
Grace

 

[Newbie2]

Just had a thought…

A way to think about the intrinsic-ness or non-intrinsicness of any profanity is if one is alone, say working on the car (which seems to be my trigger for such utterances) and drops an F bomb or other such profane word.

That takes away any subjectivity of anyone (not) hearing it.

Methinks profanity is profanity whether or not anyone else hears it.

 

[GraceDK]

Just had a thought…

A way to think about the intrinsic-ness or non-intrinsicness of any profanity is if one is alone, say working on the car (which seems to be my trigger for such utterances) and drops an F bomb or other such profane word.

That takes away any subjectivity of anyone (not) hearing it.

Methinks profanity is profanity whether or not anyone else hears it.

Your thought was good… and I may add: Someone always hears profanity. If I stand in the middle of the desert and say a bad word then the most holy and pure Love who is God hears me very clearly.
I remember when I became a believer… I got frigtened at the thought that I was never alone. Now, when I cant feel the Lords presence it frightens me.
He is always with us… seeing in the hidden…
And as is written: There is nothing hidden that wont be made clear and visible. (I remember this word because I thought of it quite alot at the time where I struggled with sexual sin).

My policy is this: talk and act so that it would not emberrass you if it turned out that a bunch of saints, believers, angels, and royalty was in the audience…

One is not seeing Christ in his neighbour if he speaks trash to him and thus urges him to continue in his lifestyle of flesh.

 

[Caesar517]

I think onetimeposter (post #57) and GraceDK (post #68) both made good points.

There is a man named Paul at my parish who serves as a Eucharistic Minister. He has some education in psychology (I don’t know what level). He was telling us about one of his experiences:

There was a man who was in some form of an institutionalized setting (may have been the hopsital, I can’t remember). This man was emotionally damaged and somewhat distraught. People tried to get through to him, but he would spew profanities at whoever tried to talk to him about this man’s life. No one was getting through to him. Paul went to see him. As expected, this man was spewing profanities like no one else could. Paul did something different than the other people, though: he started shouting profanities back at him.

After a while, the man stopped. Paul had earned the man’s respect. The two sat in silence for a few minutes, then the man broke down and started to cry. Paul was there for several hours talking to him about this man’s troubled experiences. They talked about everything: life religion, God, past experiences, etc. They parted in peace. I never knew what became of that man after that, but I know Paul made a lasting impression on him.

Paul was the only one who was able to get through to him, and it was because he was willing to speak the man’s language.

I know this doesn’t always turn out like this, but it can work. I think how far you are willing to go to speak someone’s language is something that has to be determined on a case-to-case basis. Of course, you should always have a point that you are not willing to pass. I would apply the Principle of Double Effect in a situation like this.

 

[onetimeposter]

My point exactly and I have a job in the REAL world where I deal with all sorts of different people and I have to adjust the language I use, all depending on who I’m speaking to.

If you want to earn someones respect and make a good first impression…talk to them in a manner that they can relate to.

It is that simple and sometimes it involves swearing, cursing and dropping F bombs.

 

[Newbie2]

I think onetimeposter (post #57) and GraceDK (post #68) both made good points.

There is a man named Paul at my parish who serves as a Eucharistic Minister. He has some education in psychology (I don’t know what level). He was telling us about one of his experiences:

There was a man who was in some form of an institutionalized setting (may have been the hopsital, I can’t remember). This man was emotionally damaged and somewhat distraught. People tried to get through to him, but he would spew profanities at whoever tried to talk to him about this man’s life. No one was getting through to him. Paul went to see him. As expected, this man was spewing profanities like no one else could. Paul did something different than the other people, though: he started shouting profanities back at him.

After a while, the man stopped. Paul had earned the man’s respect. The two sat in silence for a few minutes, then the man broke down and started to cry. Paul was there for several hours talking to him about this man’s troubled experiences. They talked about everything: life religion, God, past experiences, etc. They parted in peace. I never knew what became of that man after that, but I know Paul made a lasting impression on him.

Paul was the only one who was able to get through to him, and it was because he was willing to speak the man’s language.

I know this doesn’t always turn out like this, but it can work. I think how far you are willing to go to speak someone’s language is something that has to be determined on a case-to-case basis. Of course, you should always have a point that you are not willing to pass. I would apply the Principle of Double Effect in a situation like this.

My point exactly and I have a job in the REAL world where I deal with all sorts of different people and I have to adjust the language I use, all depending on who I’m speaking to.

If you want to earn someones respect and make a good first impression…talk to them in a manner that they can relate to.

It is that simple and sometimes it involves swearing, cursing and dropping F bombs.

Um…there’s a difference between the mentally ill and joe average pottymouth on the street. I’ll bet that you could have a conversation with someone like that without dropping the F bomb…as you’re so good at relating to people.

And if you can do it without the F bomb, you can probably do it without other profanity as well. You’re selling yourself short.

 

[LJN21]

Grace-

On what authority do you have to say that swearing/cussing is sinful? Cite a source, you have been given 3 very good sources that saying that it is not necessarily sinful. (Obviously there are exceptions like cussing someone out.) The words themselves are moral neutral, a word can not be intrinsically evil.

 

[onetimeposter]

… and joe average pottymouth on the street.

There are probably 10,000 times as many joe average pottymouths as there are Christians worrying about whether or not it is a sin to say a naughty word!

Sure I can talk to them without swearing, but hey, it loosens em’ up and lets em know that I’m on the same page as them.

 

[masterjedi747]

On what authority do you have to say that swearing/cussing is sinful? Cite a source, you have been given 3 very good sources that saying that it is not necessarily sinful. (Obviously there are exceptions like cussing someone out.) The words themselves are moral neutral, a word can not be intrinsically evil.

Well, that’s the route I tried to go down… and it ended up somewhere around here:

*"If an apologist says that using such words anywhere is okay then I must respectfully disagree. He is not my authority. Even if the Magisterium said otherwise I must follow my conscience and say I am surprised that any one here advocate this kind of idle talk which damages the Catholic Church whether you recognize it or not.

When I was in school I as an immature child I would say bad words, at home hardly ever as I just said. When I came to a Catholic school and then a Protestant one after that I was suddenly not allowed to speak foul on the school area. That was the time where I learned to really stop when I wanted to. BUT It was only after I got to know Jesus on a personal level that I understood why I should stop… what He thinks. His oppinion is what matters to me…

Since the conversion experience I cringe everytime I hear someone use any kind of bad language and I feel sorry for them if they persist in this sin because they have not met his Holiness Jesus our King of Glory."*

And, unfortunately, I really don’t think we’re going to get much further than that.

 

[LJN21]

We’re all should called to follow our conscience in our own lives. However, because someone feels like they shouldn’t use words that have been given bad meanings doesn’t mean its sinful

Blanket statements about the sinfulness of things that are not in fact sins lead fairly quickly to the sin of being overly scrupulous.

 

[edwest2]

Being overly scrupulous a sin? According to who?

Jesus Christ said, “Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.”

Too often, some people don’t even try. “It’s too hard!” Try. And when you fall down, ask for forgiveness and try again. Make it a point to continue to walk toward Christ, not away from him.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Here is what the Bible has to say:

James 1: 26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man and able to bridle the whole body.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

God bless,
Ed

 

[onetimeposter]

Here is what the Bible has to say:

James 1: 26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man and able to bridle the whole body.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

God bless,
Ed

I don’t see how this applies in situations where no one is offended or where it is used in an appropriate context. Swearing is a means of communication and a means of expression.

What’s the difference between saying ’ Golly gee or shucks ’ and saying a big F! The point is that the speaker is intending to express dismay and they are making their own choice to decide what is morally right or what is not objectionable.

The speaker by saying “shucks” , according to their moral compass, is better than dropping an F bomb, but either way, they are expressing a negative emotion through the english language and are not intending to offend or insult anyone…

Either way, no big deal…