When does honesty become gossip?

[Monica4316]

My friend has recently has her breasts augmented. I told a mutual friend about it and she became upset. Part of me is like if she were so secure in her choice to get plastic surgery she wouldn’t care who I tell. Facts are facts. I think she is upset with herself because she has seen how vain she truly is. She accused me of gossip. Sooner or later people will find out and it is clear.
If you’re telling the truth, why do people think it is rude? Like expressing concern for people’s spending habits. I commented on how I noticed my friend rarely received the euçharist. She accused me of being nosy, we attend church regularly. She told me at least I’m not self righteous enough to think I’m worthy of communion.
I thought we are our brother’s keeper. Why do people being honest and correcting others is wrong or being a busybody?

there are sins other than gossip, and one of them is detraction. Detraction is when you tell the truth but it ruins someone’s reputation. That is a mortal sin if the person’s sin was mortal, and venial if it was venial. In my opinion, the mutual friend really didn’t need to know about what this friend did and the surgery. No one needs to know, because it’s not their business, and affects the reputation of the person. You said it’s vain, and yes such surgery can be vain and that’s precisely why we shouldn’t tell mutual friends about it. We don’t need to tell people’s sins to others. If a sin is already public (like that of a politician) that is different, but still we need to stay charitable and not talk about the person rudely. But if it’s not a public thing (and this isn’t), NO ONE needs to know, and telling others is - detraction, which is a sin. This is what was explained during a homily at my parish… quite probably you didn’t know about this, as many people don’t, and I didn’t know either in the past. I hope it makes sense how I described it. I’ve done this many times myself in the past, - one way to make reparation is just to say something positive about the person to the mutual friend, or apologize to the mutual friend for saying this bit of news.

There’s nothing wrong with honesty but we need to be delicate and gentle in how we do this… because making someone angry would simply not help them towards the truth, and correction needs to be oriented to charity. St Thomas Aquinas says in the Summa that if you know someone is not ready for the truth and would not accept it, it’s fine to intend to correct them at a later time, because correction needs to be for charity, which is to help the person. If it would only make them more angry, and you know for sure, maybe pray for them first. There are exceptions of course when something must be said, for example to remove a bad example to others, but this needs to be done prudently.

Regarding the comment about Communion… I would just pray for your friend and not bring this up too much. In my struggle with scruples, there were many times I didn’t receive Communion. When people asked me about this, it honestly made it much worse and very discouraging. I have no idea why your friend didn’t go to Communion, maybe she wanted to go to confession, frankly I think this is best left between the person and their confessor! just my two cents.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

I’m going to step in here and say something to all of you here.

While I’m not playing online psychiatrist, nor am i accusing the OP of having any disorder, (I’m really not) I want to say to the rest of you that there are people on this earth (and a few I know who regularly post here) who suffer from conditions that make it difficult for them to understand certain cultural and social mores. **With no fault of their own, and in complete innocence, they do not know what they are doing. ** They come here for help and to seek answers to what they don’t understand, things that hurt them, things that confuse them, things that they wish to rectify. Now with that understanding, that there are people who have true difficulties, go back and read some of these posts. Do it. I dare you. Look at what you sound like to someone honestly seeking help under that new understanding.

I realize that not everyone knows about these conditions, and this is also why I’m stepping in. I’m also stepping in because of the way the OP asked, it does not seem to me that what seems so obvious ot the rest of you is so obvious to her, yet it was a continual SHAMEFUL “Catholic” bashfest from many of you on what she should know or shouldn’t know. As a Catholic, its up to us to communicate love and patience and understanding and for those who don’t know any better, we kindly help them navigate as we would like others to help us navigate “The Way” as well.

I’m not talking about all the posts here, but I grew so incredibly disgusted with the mob attack the OP for 'not having enough sense" and comments like “you have more problems”… really? That’s so unbelievably rude if that person does indeed have ‘more problems’… Those “more problems” are the very ones Jesus asks us to attend to, not load their shoulders up with heavier weights and wish them well on their way. WHY ARE YOU SPILLING HATRED TOWARDS THEM??? HELP instead! Instead you used the OP like a dart board for your frustrations. Does this please Jesus? Is this how Christians are? Is that Ok by YOUR God to treat someone that way?

And for those of you that pull the “troll” card, please, please please for the LOVE OF GOD, stop doing that and either ignore the post or answer in a way that has compassion, as if the person was indeed someone who is trying to navigate life with something less than what you were given. Its not responsible internet behavior to assume ‘trolls’, though yes of course they are out there… Its not even CHRISTIAN behavior to attack a ‘troll’ back… and for what glory does it serve when you do that? You want Christ represented that way? Because that is what you are doing. **Jesus says that however you treat the least of these, you treated me. **

This OP didn’t do anything wrong from what it sounds like. She seemed to me to be honestly inquiring. Yet I feel she was attacked for it and I want to offer an public apology to her on behalf. Part of being a Christian is that I may not agree with what someone is doing, but there are ways to offer a word of advice, support, guidance, etc… . Something that would glorify Christ and His Holy Name and help someone who is honestly inquiring.
Its a person, created by God, who posted it and its a person, made in God's image, who will be reading it. Be kind. You don't know what they might be going through.

 

[Monica4316]

I don’t think the OP is a troll. People have different struggles, it’s hard to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes. Many people aren’t aware that there’s such a thing as detraction. I had no idea until a priest explained it. We definitely shouldn’t assume anyone is a troll unless it’s absolutely obvious, and even then, they’re a person created by God.

To the OP, I hope it makes sense the idea that some people have tried to convey… you meant to be honest and to help, perhaps, - a good rule with honesty is to give it gently and not share more than necessary with people who are not connected to the events. In many cases, it’s not needed to say anything at all to others, only to the person directly involved.

 

[Spritus1]

All I will say is that one should never stick one’s nose into another’s affairs when it comes to their receiving or not receiving Holy Communion at Mass. It is their business. It is between themselves and God. And possibly the priest depending on the circumstances. Or a parent, again depending on the circumstances. It is not something that a friend should concern themselves with.

 

[St_Francis]

My friend has recently has her breasts augmented. I told a mutual friend about it and she became upset. Part of me is like if she were so secure in her choice to get plastic surgery she wouldn’t care who I tell. Facts are facts. I think she is upset with herself because she has seen how vain she truly is. She accused me of gossip. Sooner or later people will find out and it is clear.
If you’re telling the truth, why do people think it is rude? Like expressing concern for people’s spending habits. I commented on how I noticed my friend rarely received the euçharist. She accused me of being nosy, we attend church regularly. She told me at least I’m not self righteous enough to think I’m worthy of communion.
I thought we are our brother’s keeper. Why do people being honest and correcting others is wrong or being a busybody?

Pelagia,
In this day of Jerry Springer and beyond, and Facebook and Twitter, it really is hard to know the boundaries. The boundaries used to be clear, and now so many people volunteer private information for fame or fortune; FB posts make it to international news, the affairs of the President take over the news … Really, there is way, way, way too much TMI!!!

So a lot of young people are confused about the boundaries, just as you are.

I would say:

1. Do not mention anything anyone has told you that pertains to their health/body or soul, or their finances, or their romantic relations, or their opinions about anything. In fact, try tnot to reveal information about people at all, unless you are quite sure it is common knowledge already.
2. Do not remark upon anything your friends do, either to them or to others, esp in a derogatory or critical way. It would be ok to ask how they got their hair to do something, not ok to ask if they get bikini waxes. If you need information, you can bring up the topic in general, I was thinking of getting my nails painted in a fancy way for this wedding I am going to, do you know of a good place? Is better than Where do you get your nails done?
3. Do not admonish anyone for their behavior: discuss it with a priest or good friend irl if you find that you really think it is important to admonish someone, in which case, the matter should be a serious one and you should have a good idea that they will accept your admonition, which means you should discuss how best to give it before actually doing so.

For the most part, you are not in authority over anyone now, and so the opportunity for you to admonish is extremely low. When you see someone doing some little thing, you can remember that you, too, are a sinner, and you can pray for them. Also, not a good idea to speculate about motives unless you are thinking something that would reduce the problem action (My friend did not receive the Eucharist: maybe she broke her fast << OK; maybe she committed a mortal sin << NOT OK!!!)

Do not repeat what people tell you about themselves, and do not repeat what people tell you about others, esp if they tell you something about their feelings about another person! If someone says something in frustration about another person, do not tell the other person!!! If someone tells you she likes a guy (or vice versa), do not tell anyone!!!

I see this is quite long, sorry about that I’ve been on both sides of these types of problems, from little children telling telephone salespeople that I’m in the bathroom to letting surprise parties slip

 

[pianistclare]

I’m going to step in here and say something to all of you here.

While I’m not playing online psychiatrist, nor am i accusing the OP of having any disorder, (I’m really not) I want to say to the rest of you that there are people on this earth (and a few I know who regularly post here) who suffer from conditions that make it difficult for them to understand certain cultural and social mores. **With no fault of their own, and in complete innocence, they do not know what they are doing. ** They come here for help and to seek answers to what they don’t understand, things that hurt them, things that confuse them, things that they wish to rectify. Now with that understanding, that there are people who have true difficulties, go back and read some of these posts. Do it. I dare you. Look at what you sound like to someone honestly seeking help under that new understanding.

I realize that not everyone knows about these conditions, and this is also why I’m stepping in. I’m also stepping in because of the way the OP asked, it does not seem to me that what seems so obvious ot the rest of you is so obvious to her, yet it was a continual SHAMEFUL “Catholic” bashfest from many of you on what she should know or shouldn’t know. As a Catholic, its up to us to communicate love and patience and understanding and for those who don’t know any better, we kindly help them navigate as we would like others to help us navigate “The Way” as well.

I’m not talking about all the posts here, but I grew so incredibly disgusted with the mob attack the OP for 'not having enough sense" and comments like “you have more problems”… really? That’s so unbelievably rude if that person does indeed have ‘more problems’… Those “more problems” are the very ones Jesus asks us to attend to, not load their shoulders up with heavier weights and wish them well on their way. WHY ARE YOU SPILLING HATRED TOWARDS THEM??? HELP instead! Instead you used the OP like a dart board for your frustrations. Does this please Jesus? Is this how Christians are? Is that Ok by YOUR God to treat someone that way?

And for those of you that pull the “troll” card, please, please please for the LOVE OF GOD, stop doing that and either ignore the post or answer in a way that has compassion, as if the person was indeed someone who is trying to navigate life with something less than what you were given. Its not responsible internet behavior to assume ‘trolls’, though yes of course they are out there… Its not even CHRISTIAN behavior to attack a ‘troll’ back… and for what glory does it serve when you do that? You want Christ represented that way? Because that is what you are doing. **Jesus says that however you treat the least of these, you treated me. **

This OP didn’t do anything wrong from what it sounds like. She seemed to me to be honestly inquiring. Yet I feel she was attacked for it and I want to offer an public apology to her on behalf. Part of being a Christian is that I may not agree with what someone is doing, but there are ways to offer a word of advice, support, guidance, etc… . Something that would glorify Christ and His Holy Name and help someone who is honestly inquiring.

 Its a person, created by God,  who posted it and its a person, made in God's image, who will be reading it.   Be kind.    You don't know what they might be going through.

Posting history.
Its real.
We have been round and round with this poster. She has never, ever taken the most humbly offered advice.
She has never considered she may need a spiritual director. She has never said anything charitable about her “friends” or anyone else
**Sometimes the TRUTH is the most compassionate way. **
That was advice given by a very good priest.

 

[e_c]

Speak your mind for three reasons:

1. To edify.
2. To praise another.
3. Out of duty.

 

[e_c]

This was not about a sin and even if it was detraction is a GRAVE sin.

Detraction is not always a grave sin. The source you have provided has not claimed such, nor will any authoritative source. There are degrees of damage to honor and reputation and also degrees of culpability.

Don’t turn people into scrups.

 

[o_mlly]

My friend has recently has her breasts augmented. I told a mutual friend about it and she became upset. Part of me is like if she were so secure in her choice to get plastic surgery she wouldn’t care who I tell. Facts are facts. I think she is upset with herself because she has seen how vain she truly is. She accused me of gossip. Sooner or later people will find out and it is clear.
If you’re telling the truth, why do people think it is rude? Like expressing concern for people’s spending habits. I commented on how I noticed my friend rarely received the euçharist. She accused me of being nosy, we attend church regularly. She told me at least I’m not self righteous enough to think I’m worthy of communion.
I thought we are our brother’s keeper. Why do people being honest and correcting others is wrong or being a busybody?

Correcting others, fraternal correction, is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit’s gift of charity. What is reported above is not fraternal correction.

Brest augmentation without medical reasons, that is purely cosmetic reasons, is mutilation and that is evil.

 

[mommy_k]

Op…Here is an excerpt on humility, which sometimes helps discern when and how to approach others. It copied all bunched up…sorry!

St. Josemaria Escriva

St. Josemaria’s 17 Signs of a Lack of Humility
Below is an excerpt fromthe writings of St. Josemariawhich can help us identify a lack of humility in ourselves.

Thinking that what you do or say is better than what others do or sayAlways wanting to get your own wayArguing when you are not right or — when you are —insisting stubbornly or with bad mannersGiving your opinion without being asked for it, whencharity does not demand you to do soDespising the point of view of othersNot being aware that all the gifts and qualities you haveare on loanNot acknowledging that you areunworthy of all honour or esteem, even the ground you are treadingon or the things you ownMentioning yourselfas an example in conversationSpeaking badlyabout yourself, so that they may form a good opinion of you, orcontradict youMaking excuses whenrebukedHiding some humiliating faults fromyour director, so that he may not lose the good opinion he has ofyouHearing praise with satisfaction, orbeing glad that others have spoken well of youBeing hurt that others are held in greater esteem thanyouRefusing to carry out menialtasksSeeking or wanting to be singledoutLetting drop words of self-praise inconversation, or words that might show your honesty, your wit or*skill, your professional prestige…

St. Josemaria, pray for us!

“The Way, The Furrow, The Forge (Single Volume Edition)” by St. Josemaria Escriva

 

[BroIgnatius]

Op…Here is an excerpt on humility, which sometimes helps discern when and how to approach others. It copied all bunched up…sorry!

St. Josemaria’s 17 Signs of a Lack of Humility
“The Way, The Furrow, The Forge (Single Volume Edition)” by St. Josemaria Escriva

1. 
   *]Thinking that what you do or say is better than what others do or say
   *]Always wanting to get your own way
   *]Arguing when you are not right or — when you are — insisting stubbornly or with bad manners
   *]Giving your opinion without being asked for it, when charity does not demand you to do so
   *]Despising the point of view of others
   *]Not being aware that all the gifts and qualities you have are on loan
   *]Not acknowledging that you are unworthy of all honour or esteem, even the ground you are treading on or the things you own
   *]Mentioning yourself as an example in conversation
   *]Speaking badly about yourself, so that they may form a good opinion of you, or contradict you
   *]Making excuses when rebuked
   *]Hiding some humiliating faults from your director, so that he may not lose the good opinion he has of you
   *]Hearing praise with satisfaction, or being glad that others have spoken well of you
   *]Being hurt that others are held in greater esteem than you
   *]Refusing to carry out menial tasks
   *]Seeking or wanting to be singled out
   *]Letting drop words of self-praise in conversation, or words that might show your honesty, your wit or skill, your professional prestige…
   *]Being ashamed of not having certain possessions…

 

[mommy_k]

St. Josemaria’s 17 Signs of a Lack of Humility
“The Way, The Furrow, The Forge (Single Volume Edition)” by St. Josemaria Escriva

1. 
   *]Thinking that what you do or say is better than what others do or say
   *]Always wanting to get your own way
   *]Arguing when you are not right or — when you are — insisting stubbornly or with bad manners
   *]Giving your opinion without being asked for it, when charity does not demand you to do so
   *]Despising the point of view of others
   *]Not being aware that all the gifts and qualities you have are on loan
   *]Not acknowledging that you are unworthy of all honour or esteem, even the ground you are treading on or the things you own
   *]Mentioning yourself as an example in conversation
   *]Speaking badly about yourself, so that they may form a good opinion of you, or contradict you
   *]Making excuses when rebuked
   *]Hiding some humiliating faults from your director, so that he may not lose the good opinion he has of you
   *]Hearing praise with satisfaction, or being glad that others have spoken well of you
   *]Being hurt that others are held in greater esteem than you
   *]Refusing to carry out menial tasks
   *]Seeking or wanting to be singled out
   *]Letting drop words of self-praise in conversation, or words that might show your honesty, your wit or skill, your professional prestige…
   *]Being ashamed of not having certain possessions…

1. 
   Thank you for posting a clear copy.

 

[o_mlly]

Correcting others, fraternal correction, is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit’s gift of charity. What is reported above is not fraternal correction.

Brest augmentation without medical reasons, that is purely cosmetic reasons, is mutilation and that is evil.

Not relevant to this OP but cosmetic breast augmentation procedures due to disfigurement (mastectomy) in order to return one’s appearance to the natural order are not evil.

 

[AbideWithMe]

St. Josemaria’s 17 Signs of a Lack of Humility
“The Way, The Furrow, The Forge (Single Volume Edition)” by St. Josemaria Escriva

1. 
   *]Thinking that what you do or say is better than what others do or say
   *]Always wanting to get your own way
   *]Arguing when you are not right or — when you are — insisting stubbornly or with bad manners
   *]Giving your opinion without being asked for it, when charity does not demand you to do so
   *]Despising the point of view of others
   *]Not being aware that all the gifts and qualities you have are on loan
   *]Not acknowledging that you are unworthy of all honour or esteem, even the ground you are treading on or the things you own
   *]Mentioning yourself as an example in conversation
   *]Speaking badly about yourself, so that they may form a good opinion of you, or contradict you
   *]Making excuses when rebuked
   *]Hiding some humiliating faults from your director, so that he may not lose the good opinion he has of you
   *]Hearing praise with satisfaction, or being glad that others have spoken well of you
   *]Being hurt that others are held in greater esteem than you
   *]Refusing to carry out menial tasks
   *]Seeking or wanting to be singled out
   *]Letting drop words of self-praise in conversation, or words that might show your honesty, your wit or skill, your professional prestige…
   *]Being ashamed of not having certain possessions…

1. 
   If we all attended to these good words, internet forums would get rather quiet.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

I don’t see how commenting on someone else’s behavior is judgmental if it is sinful. Families and close friends often have lax boundaries. Isn’t it prideful to think no one should comment or correct you on how you lead your life?
Poor spending habits, infidelity, ridiculous implants.
I don’t know what is in people’s hearts, but i know some folks well enough to know when they’re b.s.ing.
Doesn’t it show concern that I care whether or not my friend takes the Eucharist? A bad friend would not notice or comment. Or let alone concern themselves.
Other people will notice and speculate. How is it gossip? Perhaps I revealed the news too early or she should have told people herself.

 

[Vico]

My friend has recently has her breasts augmented. I told a mutual friend about it and she became upset. Part of me is like if she were so secure in her choice to get plastic surgery she wouldn’t care who I tell. Facts are facts. I think she is upset with herself because she has seen how vain she truly is. She accused me of gossip. Sooner or later people will find out and it is clear.
If you’re telling the truth, why do people think it is rude? Like expressing concern for people’s spending habits. I commented on how I noticed my friend rarely received the euçharist. She accused me of being nosy, we attend church regularly. She told me at least I’m not self righteous enough to think I’m worthy of communion.
I thought we are our brother’s keeper. Why do people being honest and correcting others is wrong or being a busybody?

Vanity is a flaw.

Catechism

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.278 He becomes guilty:* of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;

• of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;279
• of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280

2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one’s neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.

 

[Lou2U]

I don’t see how commenting on someone else’s behavior is judgmental if it is sinful. Families and close friends often have lax boundaries. Isn’t it prideful to think no one should comment or correct you on how you lead your life?
Poor spending habits, infidelity, ridiculous implants.
I don’t know what is in people’s hearts, but i know some folks well enough to know when they’re b.s.ing.
Doesn’t it show concern that I care whether or not my friend takes the Eucharist? A bad friend would not notice or comment. Or let alone concern themselves.
Other people will notice and speculate. How is it gossip? Perhaps I revealed the news too early or she should have told people herself.

You’re missing the part where what your friend does is absolutely none of your business. It is not your right to go around and gossip (yes, gossip) about your friend’s surgery. It is for your friend to talk about, if she chooses, not you. You do not know whether her surgery was sinful. You do not know what is in her heart.

As others have said, I don’t believe this person is your friend. You clearly have no care for her and believe yourself superior. You obviously have decided that you are right and we are wrong.

You do not show concern for your “friend”. You are gossiping about her. It is not honesty.

Lou

 

[1ke]

Poor spending habits,

Not a sin.

infidelity

Sinful, and should be discussed in private with that person, not among other people.

ridiculous implants.

“ridiculous” is your judgment about the implants
Implants - not sinful

I don’t know what is in people’s hearts, but i know some folks well enough to know when they’re b.s.ing.

I don’t think anyone made you sheriff for the day, so really this is completely irrelevant.

Doesn’t it show concern that I care whether or not my friend takes the Eucharist? A bad friend would not notice or comment. Or let alone concern themselves.

Not a sin.

Therefore NOT YOUR BUSINESS.

You are not being a good friend, you are being a nosy rude person who says they are friend.

Other people will notice and speculate.

And that is THEIR sin. The person who refrains from the Eucharist isn’t doing anything wrong. Any speculation or gossip-- yours or other people’s-- is the sin in this equation.

Go talk to your pastor. You have some serious issues with your ability to understand what you are doing wrong. Your pastor can guide you.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

You’re missing the part where what your friend does is absolutely none of your business. It is not your right to go around and gossip (yes, gossip) about your friend’s surgery. It is for your friend to talk about, if she chooses, not you. You do not know whether her surgery was sinful. You do not know what is in her heart.

As others have said, I don’t believe this person is your friend. You clearly have no care for her and believe yourself superior. You obviously have decided that you are right and we are wrong.

You do not show concern for your “friend”. You are gossiping about her. It is not honesty.

Lou

I thought a good friend or family tells you what you need to hear NOT what you want to hear. Breast implants are a sign of vanity. Why can’t I comment, correct or critique what I see in another person’s life as wrong? Like if someone is gaining weight, cannot parent well, overreacting, acting lazy. We are our brother’s keeper.

 

[Lou2U]

I thought a good friend or family tells you what you need to hear NOT what you want to hear. Breast implants are a sign of vanity. Why can’t I comment, correct or critique what I see in another person’s life as wrong? Like if someone is gaining weight, cannot parent well, overreacting, acting lazy. We are our brother’s keeper.

Except you didn’t tell your friend. You told other people about your friend, which is gossip, and is none of your business. You don’t know her reasoning for her surgery, so be charitable and do not assume.

You are also acting off your own opinions. In your opinion your friend has done wrong, but your opinion is not fact. Your friend has the right to discard your opinion, and that doesn’t automatically make her wrong.

You are being disrespectful towards your friend, and as I said, you are acting as though you are superior to her and almost that she should be grateful to you - when you have gossiped about her and made assumptions about her, and pushed into her private business. You do not have the right to treat her as though she were your child.

Listen to 1ke. Speak to your pastor, because I cannot see how these forums are helping you.

Lou