When does honesty become gossip?

[TheLeastofThese]

Correcting others, fraternal correction, is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit’s gift of charity. What is reported above is not fraternal correction.

Brest augmentation without medical reasons, that is purely cosmetic reasons, is mutilation and that is evil.

And who are we to judge if it was medically necessary or for purely cosmetic reasons???

 

[TheLeastofThese]

I thought a good friend or family tells you what you need to hear NOT what you want to hear. Breast implants are a sign of vanity. Why can’t I comment, correct or critique what I see in another person’s life as wrong? Like if someone is gaining weight, cannot parent well, overreacting, acting lazy. We are our brother’s keeper.

Whenever you point out someone else’s faults/sins you have one finger pointed at them and 3 others pointed back at you…If you don’t believe me, try pointing at something and you’ll see that it is so.

How do you know, in this particular instance, that the breast augmentation was done for vain purposes? Isn’t that casting judgment on another person’s motivations which you cannot possibly know unless they’ve shared those motivations with you???

Re: abstention from receiving the Eucharist, if you TRULY care about your “friend”, why don’t you ask why they are abstaining instead of assuming the worst and spreading the news far and wide???

There is nothing wrong with honesty per se, but IMO we need always ask if our “honesty” will build up our brother/sister, or tear them down and what is the “REAL” motivation for our so-called “honesty”. I know that I personally have highlighted the faults of others to make myself look better in someone’s eyes and that is sinful indeed.

 

[detles]

The guideline I’ve seen that I’ve found helpful is that if the person you are talking to isn’t either directly part of the problem (in which case they are likely aware of the situation already) or clearly part of the solution, it’s gossip. And no “I’ll ask them to pray about it to make them part of the solution!” to get around it!

 

[PelagiathePenit]

My approach may be extreme. I think I should hone and tone it down. Why can’t we have honest discussions? I see this as a lack of maturity. If I say something that offends, you DON’T SULK, argue back effectively. Reason with me. Don’t ignore me what I said. All relationships would fall apart if we ran away from people saying things that displease us. What is wrong with correcting others? Should I have to ask for permission before I call out an error I see in someone’s life? Or pretend everything is fine and dandy when it is not? Should I only discuss things that make others feel comfortable? As a friend, do I blindly have to agree with your lifestyle or foolish choices? Perhaps my approach is callous or obtuse. You have to see the merit behind my words.

Choices like plastic surgery will have drawbacks in the future.
I believe in leading a self-contained, independent, responsible and cautious life.
Reason/rationality and honesty to me are the highest values.
If you act foolishly, do not expect the world to be kind.
People have the right to comment on the way you choose to live your life, especially if you are acting like a poor example.
Follow the rules, make thoughtful choices, show concern for others.
You may argue I’m cruel. My concern is not completely skewed as many of you claim.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

I kind of wish we could freely express opinions without other’s taking it the wrong way and getting offended.

 

[Indigo_Cardinal]

My approach may be extreme. I think I should hone and tone it down. Why can’t we have honest discussions? I see this as a lack of maturity. If I say something that offends, you DON’T SULK, argue back effectively. Reason with me. Don’t ignore me what I said. All relationships would fall apart if we ran away from people saying things that displease us. What is wrong with correcting others? Should I have to ask for permission before I call out an error I see in someone’s life? Or pretend everything is fine and dandy when it is not? Should I only discuss things that make others feel comfortable? As a friend, do I blindly have to agree with your lifestyle or foolish choices? Perhaps my approach is callous or obtuse. You have to see the merit behind my words.

Choices like plastic surgery will have drawbacks in the future.
I believe in leading a self-contained, independent, responsible and cautious life.
Reason/rationality and honesty to me are the highest values.
If you act foolishly, do not expect the world to be kind.
People have the right to comment on the way you choose to live your life, especially if you are acting like a poor example.
Follow the rules, make thoughtful choices, show concern for others.
You may argue I’m cruel. My concern is not completely skewed as many of you claim.

After numerous posts of people telling you that you are behaving like a jerk, you are still refusing to see that you were in error. You are continuing to talk at people, not with them. This, to me, is a shining example of why your friends do not bother to talk out the situations with you–you were showing us that you were not willing to listen to anything other than your own self importance of “I am right and you should just simply do what I tell you to do,” your ‘friends’ have realized there’s not point in trying to have a ‘discussion’ with you, so they simply take steps to cut a toxic person out of their life. Since you have expressed that this is been a problem for you in the past, then you better realize it is you who needs to do the fixing, not everybody around you

 

[Indigo_Cardinal]

I kind of wish we could freely express opinions without other’s taking it the wrong way and getting offended.

Since you’ve shown that you’re determined to offend, then don’t be surprise that everybody gets offended.

 

[Jestersage]

PelagiathePenit, let’s keep it simple: What makes us catholic?

Not calling others out, and just keep calling others out, and stay in the argument. That’s what protestants do. Good in concept, yes. Biblical by scripture alone, yes. But that’s not what we Catholic do.

What we do, as Catholic, is talk with our priest (or spiritual director). If you have contacted him, and he agree with what you did, then the lay people around here will stop calling you being arrogant. However, do note that some posters here are Fathers themselves. If any of them had actually pointed out what you did is detraction, you best listen to it.

All you have to do is simple: tell us that you had talk with your priest, and he agrees with your thinking.

 

[AbideWithMe]

PelagiathePenit, let’s keep it simple: What makes us catholic?

Not calling others out, and just keep calling others out, and stay in the argument. That’s what protestants do. Good in concept, yes. Biblical by scripture alone, yes. But that’s not what we Catholic do.

Oh, for goodness sake, Protestants recognize this as detraction, too. And no, it’s not biblical.

Catholics, Protestants, atheists and agnostics have all responded here with the understanding that the OP’s treatment of her friends is problematic on several levels, and her zeal to criticize others while flattering herself about her own faults is a human characteristic that can be found anywhere.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

Oh, for goodness sake, Protestants recognize this as detraction, too. And no, it’s not biblical.

Catholics, Protestants, atheists and agnostics have all responded here with the understanding that the OP’s treatment of her friends is problematic on several levels, and her zeal to criticize others while flattering herself about her own faults is a human characteristic that can be found anywhere.

It would be cool if we learned to not get so offended, emotional or take things so personally all the time? The truth is the truth. No one is perfect. People should accept rejection, criticism, disagreements humbly regardless of the timing or tone. Even intent should be ignored. If you’re overweight, you’re still overweight whether someone calls you fat or not. If it weren’t true, why would such things annoy you? If a man dumps you through a text, is the method he dumped you a bigger matter or is it an issue that you can’t handle rejection?

 

[AbideWithMe]

It would be cool if we learned to not get so offended, emotional or take things so personally all the time? The truth is the truth. No one is perfect. People should accept rejection, criticism, disagreements humbly regardless of the timing or tone. Even intent should be ignored. If you’re overweight, you’re still overweight whether someone calls you fat or not. If it weren’t true, why would such things annoy you? If a man dumps you through a text, is the method he dumped you a bigger matter or is it an issue that you can’t handle rejection?

PelagiathePenitential, what are your thoughts on the time Jesus told people to take the log out of their own eye before trying to get the speck out a brother’s eye? (I mean that as a real question I’m hoping you’ll answer.)

Do you think most people who have an attachment to something harmful are totally unaware that it’s harmful? For example, if someone smokes, overspends, overeats, or drinks too much, do you think they have no idea what they’re doing is not healthy?

Do you agree that in telling one friend about your other friend’s breast implants you committed the sin of detraction?

 

[PelagiathePenit]

PelagiathePenitential, what are your thoughts on the time Jesus told people to take the log out of their own eye before trying to get the speck out a brother’s eye? (I mean that as a real question I’m hoping you’ll answer.)

Do you think most people who have an attachment to something harmful are totally unaware that it’s harmful? For example, if someone smokes, overspends, overeats, or drinks too much, do you think they have no idea what they’re doing is not healthy?

Do you agree that in telling one friend about your other friend’s breast implants you committed the sin of detraction?

I figured her transformation would soon be public news. It is obvious and not surprising behavior from her. It is very difficult to hear and swallow the truth. I too have sins I cannot shake off easily. Christ have mercy.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I figured her transformation would soon be public news. It is obvious and not surprising behavior from her. It is very difficult to hear and swallow the truth. I too have sins I cannot shake off easily. Christ have mercy.

I’ve committed the sin of detraction myself, years ago, and I apologized when I understood my mistake. It took me about a year to understand why my pretty mild bit of detraction was unjust, and that understanding was better brought home after I was on the receiving end of having a friend break a confidence I’d entrusted to her.

You have to apologize to your friend. There’s no way forward around that. If you can see that what you did objectively meets the criteria for detraction, even if you don’t fully understand the harmfulness of it at this point, you have to make the best apology you can now. Show her you can be a trustworthy friend, and that may help her in regards to the personal insecurity that led her to turn to the breast surgery. As it is, you’re harming, not helping, her sense of security by betraying her confidence.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I’ve committed the sin of detraction myself, years ago, and I apologized when I understood my mistake. It took me about a year to understand why my pretty mild bit of detraction was unjust, and that understanding was better brought home after I was on the receiving end of having a friend break a confidence I’d entrusted to her.

You have to apologize to your friend. There’s no way forward around that. If you can see that what you did objectively meets the criteria for detraction, even if you don’t fully understand the harmfulness of it at this point, you have to make the best apology you can now. Show her you can be a trustworthy friend, and that may help her in regards to the personal insecurity that led her to turn to the breast surgery. As it is, you’re harming, not helping, her sense of security by betraying her confidence.

Nor is the OP leading her friend toward greater holiness by imposing the OP’s perception of sin on her friend even though she has no way of knowing with any certainty.

 

[Jestersage]

Oh, for goodness sake, Protestants recognize this as detraction, too. And no, it’s not biblical.

Going off side, detraction is acceptable with some evangelical and fundamentalist “church”, and claim it’s biblical by way of Matthew 18:15-17:

But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

That’s why it’s important to keep it Catholic, as by sola scriptura, what the OP did is correct.

The more I think about it, the more I think the OP does not understand the catholic position enough, especially in terms of talking to the priest.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Nor is the OP leading her friend toward greater holiness by imposing the OP’s perception of sin on her friend even though she has no way of knowing with any certainty.

That’s true. If it was vanity, I think there would be personal insecurity underlying it, but, even that is just my guess.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Going off side, detraction is acceptable with some evangelical and fundamentalist “church”, and claim it’s biblical by way of Matthew 18:15-17:

That’s why it’s important to keep it Catholic, as by sola scriptura, what the OP did is correct.

The more I think about it, the more I think the OP does not understand the catholic position enough, especially in terms of talking to the priest.

Jestersage, while some churches are purported to do a form of public shaming, it’s very rare, and from the little I’ve heard of it, it still follows a strict, formal pattern in how it’s undertaken. It’s not simply a garden variety betrayal of confidence between friends.

Detraction is not what Matthew 18 is about. That’s church discipline, a form of ecclesiastical court proceeding, if you will.

Do you have two dogs or cats, one named Jester and one named Sage?

 

[PelagiathePenit]

That’s true. If it was vanity, I think there would be personal insecurity underlying it, but, even that is just my guess.

Some people are more transparent than others so they are subject to more criticism. Their motives are clear. There are others who are opaque, you cannot really know.
Some sins are more universally condemned than others as are some shortcomings.
I do feel bad for others whose sins are evident for others to ridicule and judge. Most people like to hide their own sins and weaknesses and look for an easy target. Confronting your own flaws are the most difficult. I’m not happy I have weaknesses or that I cannot be perfect nor please anyone.
If I had to be honest, I create most of my own issues.
I have great difficulty with romantic rejection. For some it is easy to forget and forgive. I cannot. I cannot handle that someone I care about should be with someone else or would rather be with someone else. I question my own beauty after a man dumps. I think we women have great difficulty accepting our own bodies and not internalizing the media’s standard of beauty. For me, it was accepting that a man I liked preferred women who had lighter skin than me, straight hair and larger breasts. I cannot change my race, body type or hair. I know how it feels to be rejected and wanting to please someone badly to the point it is pathetic

 

[PelagiathePenit]

We all have weaknesses even if others don’t understand them.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Some people are more transparent than others so they are subject to more criticism. Their motives are clear. There are others who are opaque, you cannot really know.
Some sins are more universally condemned than others as are some shortcomings.
I do feel bad for others whose sins are evident for others to ridicule and judge. Most people like to hide their own sins and weaknesses and look for an easy target. Confronting your own flaws are the most difficult. I’m not happy I have weaknesses or that I cannot be perfect nor please anyone.
If I had to be honest, I create most of my own issues.
I have great difficulty with romantic rejection. For some it is easy to forget and forgive. I cannot. I cannot handle that someone I care about should be with someone else or would rather be with someone else. I question my own beauty after a man dumps. I think we women have great difficulty accepting our own bodies and not internalizing the media’s standard of beauty. For me, it was accepting that a man I liked preferred women who had lighter skin than me, straight hair and larger breasts. I cannot change my race, body type or hair. I know how it feels to be rejected and wanting to please someone badly to the point it is pathetic

I think just about every woman has some sense of wishing to change things about their appearance at some times in their life.

LilyM wrote a good short post a few pages back. Women can wind up feeling criticized from all sides: too vain or not beautiful enough. But, “A faithful friend is like a sheltering tree.” Be that kind of friend, and other women may realize they’re growing secure enough to lose interest in unhealthy, unreal validation and attention from others. Vanity gets naturally outgrown and left behind without confrontation or shaming.

When I was a young girl in my church’s youth group, we used to sing “We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord…” IIRC a Catholic priest wrote the song. One verse goes “And we’ll guard each man’s dignity and save each man’s pride/And they’ll know we are Christians by our love.” Guarding each man’s dignity…it seems a lost concept in these days of reality shows, but it’s still imbedded in us as part of being made in God’s image. Your good awareness of it is maybe what made you ask the opening question of this thread. So you’ve gotten a unanimous answer that you made a mistake with your friend. And yes, talk with your priest, spiritual director or older mentor in church about proceeding.