When does honesty become gossip?

[AbideWithMe]

I think just about every woman has some sense of wishing to change things about their appearance at some times in their life.

LilyM wrote a good short post a few pages back. Women can wind up feeling criticized from all sides: too vain or not beautiful enough. But, “A faithful friend is like a sheltering tree.”

Sorry, I misremembered two similar sayings here. One is from Coleridge:

“Flowers are lovely;
Love is flower-like;
But friendship is a sheltering tree”

and a verse from Sirach chapter 6, but I think you’ll find the longer passage there about friendship helpful.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

Telling others about her implants is still difficult for me to see as gossip. Soon enough others will know and notice. Perhaps the timing was wrong or I should have let her disclose this herself.
Perhaps this is an American thing. I’m from a different culture where close friends can freely tell you to lose weight, ask why you’re married, call you out if you’re cheating on your spouse. We don’t keep quiet. If you’re offended, it is because what we said it is true. No one sees this as intrusive at least my family. The closer the relationship, the more authority we feel to tell you what you’re doing is foolish, wrong, impulsive. Only a bad friend would keep quiet. Of course you can argue right back, but no sulking. If you don’t want people say anything, then conduct morally upright life or learn to ignore what others say. If there is no truth in it, why would it bother you?
If you accuse someone as acting like your mother, that friend will inform you they reacted that way because you behave like a child.
The idea is that all opinions should be expressed without relationships ending. You don’t have to agree with what they have to say.
People need to be thick skinned and take things less personally.
In an ideal world, people would accept rejection regardless of how harsh it was delivered.
Criticism can either be accepted or ignored. I think every piece of criticism has a speck of truth in it. Question perhaps why this person is reacting to you in that way.
If you act foolishly, don’t expect no backlash.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

Don’t be a slave to your feelings. This prevents people from seeing the world objectively. God’s ultimate truth is hard to swallow.

 

[LilyM]

Don’t be a slave to your feelings. This prevents people from seeing the world objectively. God’s ultimate truth is hard to swallow.

You, my friend, are most assuredly NOT God, nor in possession of ultimate truth. Do not be so sure you always speak truly when you claim to speak for Him.

Christ, who was infallible God, was more often than not charitable to those around Him, even blatant sinners like the woman caught in adultery. Rather than condemning her, He condemned those who were dealing harshly with her.

He even condemned those who would call their brothers “fool”. That is how important it was to Him that we be respectful to each other in speech.

And in the Beatitudes, He called down blessings on the meek, merciful and peacemakers rather than those who insult or hurt others while claiming to be doing His work.

 

[Indigo_Cardinal]

Telling others about her implants is still difficult for me to see as gossip. Soon enough others will know and notice…

Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. And maybe they shouldn’t be looking so closely at her breasts to determine if they got bigger or not. And maybe they won’t care one way or the other, because they’ll figure it’s her business, and not theirs.

Perhaps the timing was wrong…

There was no ‘right time’ for you to run your mouth about somebody else’s business.

or I should have let her disclose this herself…

Now you’re getting it. It only took six pages of this thread for that thought to sink in.

Perhaps this is an American thing. I’m from a different culture where close friends can freely tell you to lose weight, ask why you’re married, call you out if you’re cheating on your spouse. We don’t keep quiet. If you’re offended, it is because what we said it is true…

Or people are offended because they see you sticking your nose into what’s not your business, true or not.

No one sees this as intrusive at least my family…

Wait a minute here–one moment you blamed your culture, now you’re downplaying it as your family? Which is it? I’m really hoping it’s just your family, because I have a dream of traveling the world, and I’d hate to think I’d have to skip an entire country because the populace is as rude and obnoxious as the sample you’re providing is showing to be.

The closer the relationship, the more authority we feel to tell you what you’re doing is foolish, wrong, impulsive…

No, you don’t. I recently told my father to mind his own business about my financial affairs. I’m not asking him for money, so he can keep his mouth shut on the subject. I am 47 years old, have lived financially independent of my parents since I was 18, and I have managed my own life well enough. Anybody who wants to comment upon it better be paying my bills if they want that privilege.

Only a bad friend would keep quiet. Of course you can argue right back, but no sulking. If you don’t want people say anything, then conduct morally upright life or learn to ignore what others say. If there is no truth in it, why would it bother you?..

See “Because it’s not everybody’s business”. Repeat until it sinks in.

If you accuse someone as acting like your mother, that friend will inform you they reacted that way because you behave like a child.
The idea is that all opinions should be expressed without relationships ending. You don’t have to agree with what they have to say.
People need to be thick skinned and take things less personally.
In an ideal world, people would accept rejection regardless of how harsh it was delivered.
Criticism can either be accepted or ignored. I think every piece of criticism has a speck of truth in it. Question perhaps why this person is reacting to you in that way.
If you act foolishly, don’t expect no backlash.

And again, we see your whole, “I should be allowed to act like a jerk to people” mentality. You are not going to get the validation you seek here, no matter how many times you proclaim your self-righteousness in the matter.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

Where is the fine line between honesty and cruelty?
Some people have outright rejected dating people because of their weight. To them it is fine. After all, they aren’t misleading the other person. If the other person cries, it is their fault after all the truth hurts.
To some people political correctness is the problem, not honesty. Not everyone values diplomacy.
Furthermore, if you ask for an honest opinion, you cannot regulate what the other person says. I’ve seen people ask for opinions they really shouldn’t. Some people use that as ammunition and an excuse to point out of every last irritating flaw. If you defend yourself, after all you asked for an honest opinion so that is on you. Or maybe you aren’t emotionally mature enough to know to not ask certain questions. Don’t expect any good results if you seek an opinion.
Everyone has different levels of tolerance.

 

[LilyM]

Where is the fine line between honesty and cruelty?
Some people have outright rejected dating people because of their weight. To them it is fine. After all, they aren’t misleading the other person. If the other person cries, it is their fault after all the truth hurts.
To some people political correctness is the problem, not honesty. Not everyone values diplomacy.
Furthermore, if you ask for an honest opinion, you cannot regulate what the other person says. I’ve seen people ask for opinions they really shouldn’t. Some people use that as ammunition and an excuse to point out of every last irritating flaw. If you defend yourself, after all you asked for an honest opinion so that is on you. Or maybe you aren’t emotionally mature enough to know to not ask certain questions. Don’t expect any good results if you seek an opinion.
Everyone has different levels of tolerance.

It’s not about the other person!

I am (or try very hard to be) kind, respectful and diplomatic to everyone because that is the character I want to have and be known for. I work very hard to avoid being a jerk to anyone, even those who would tolerate it from me, or even if I think they deserve it, because I don’t want either to be or to be known as a jerk!

And I want those things because I know through experience that I will achieve more good by tempering my speech a bit than being a jerk.

 

[Jestersage]

Where is the fine line between honesty and cruelty?
Furthermore, if you ask for an honest opinion, you cannot regulate what the other person says. I’ve seen people ask for opinions they really shouldn’t.
Everyone has different levels of tolerance.

In order to be genuine in being a good catholic, we must, to our ability, attempt to not sin, and recognize when it may become sin. Durintg a recent confession, the priest remind me of one thing “Be kind”.

We weren’t aware the other person was asking for your opinion. If they did ask for it, and they do not like it, then yes, they do have a problem. If so, you did , to your best, provided charity.

That’s also where frequent confession comes in. Sure, for a millennial male like me, pornography is a mortal but common sin such that I must go to frequent confession for the last while – but even when I have come clean on that sin, there are other venial sins. Don’t say those venial sins are “okay”. Recognizing them as venial sin would be good for our soul.

A good spiritual director comes into this too. Too little recognition of one’s sin, even venial, and we will make light of sins, to the point where we will eventually mistake mortal sins as merely venial. Too much, and we will have scrupulous, which brought about a different kind of danger: a cause of Martin Luther’s rebellion is caused by his intense scrupulous, where he was struggling between the desire to speak out whatever he want with whatever words he want, and his concern of sins. A fine balance is needed.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

In order to be genuine in being a good catholic, we must, to our ability, attempt to not sin, and recognize when it may become sin. Durintg a recent confession, the priest remind me of one thing “Be kind”.

We weren’t aware the other person was asking for your opinion. If they did ask for it, and they do not like it, then yes, they do have a problem. If so, you did , to your best, provided charity.

That’s also where frequent confession comes in. Sure, for a millennial male like me, pornography is a mortal but common sin such that I must go to frequent confession for the last while – but even when I have come clean on that sin, there are other venial sins. Don’t say those venial sins are “okay”. Recognizing them as venial sin would be good for our soul.

A good spiritual director comes into this too. Too little recognition of one’s sin, even venial, and we will make light of sins, to the point where we will eventually mistake mortal sins as merely venial. Too much, and we will have scrupulous, which brought about a different kind of danger: a cause of Martin Luther’s rebellion is caused by his intense scrupulous, where he was struggling between the desire to speak out whatever he want with whatever words he want, and his concern of sins. A fine balance is needed.

No she didn’t ask for my opinion. Where is the line between cruelty and honesty? This guy I knew rejected a girl straight out because she was fat. He had no issue pointing everything wrong about her weight. He felt completely justified because she asked for his opinion. Her hurt feelings were her own not based on his cruelty. He felt good about being honest. I don’t see how that was right. I felt sad hearing it and annoyed how he thought it was ok. Gees.
You should be wise when asking for an honest opinion. I don’t think it gives anyone the right to cruelty. Some people argue the truth hurts so there may be no kind way to say something.
Perhaps if I ever ask a man why we can’t be together i won’t hear it is because of my breast size, butt size or my hair. Surely, he may be being honest, it is still cruel to say.
Some people would argue that’s his opinion. Take no offense. After all, I did ask. Truth hurts. Would it be inappropriate to cry when hearing such news?
Some would argue if I were secure enough in myself, someone’s opinion of me wouldn’t matter.
It is difficult to draw the line.
I’ve had friends inform me about the well being of my ex. I certainly didn’t want to hear so. I can’t get mad because we aren’t together and it is truth.
When do you shut your mouth?
Should we only talk about things that make people feel comfortable?
Uncomfortable reaction could simply be immaturity.
I have friends and family that are rarely bothered by anything others say or do towards them. For whatever reason, they don’t care. I often wonder why we all can’t be like that. Rarely taking offense. Some people can tolerate rudeness, bluntness, etc. Nothing effects their feelings. If they are hurt, they move on quickly.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

Lying is a sin. When is honesty and opinionatedness a sin? Some say lies hurt more than the truth.

 

[Vico]

Lying is a sin. When is honesty and opinionatedness a sin? Some say lies hurt more than the truth.

Baltimore Catechism No. 3

Q. 1311. What are rash judgment, backbiting, slander and detraction?

A. Rash judgment is believing a person guilty of sin without a sufficient cause. Backbiting is saying evil things of another in his absence. Slander is telling lies about another with the intention of injuring him. Detraction is revealing the sins of another without necessity.

Q. 1312. Is it ever allowed to tell the faults of another?

A. It is allowed to tell the faults of another when it is necessary to make them known to his parents or superiors, that the faults may be corrected and the wrong doer prevented from greater sin.

 

[Jestersage]

This is actually from today’s LoTH, morning prayer (James 2: 12-13):

Always speak and act as men destined for judgement under the law of freedom. Merciless is the judgement on the man who has not shown mercy; but mercy triumphs over judgement.

 

[EasterJoy]

My friend has recently has her breasts augmented. I told a mutual friend about it and she became upset. Part of me is like if she were so secure in her choice to get plastic surgery she wouldn’t care who I tell. Facts are facts. I think she is upset with herself because she has seen how vain she truly is. She accused me of gossip. Sooner or later people will find out and it is clear.
If you’re telling the truth, why do people think it is rude? Like expressing concern for people’s spending habits. I commented on how I noticed my friend rarely received the euçharist. She accused me of being nosy, we attend church regularly. She told me at least I’m not self righteous enough to think I’m worthy of communion.
I thought we are our brother’s keeper. Why do people being honest and correcting others is wrong or being a busybody?

If you knew she had given you her private information in confidence and you decided to tell someone anyway, you betrayed a confidence. If there was no understanding, but you had reason to believe that passing on the information might harm her reputation in some way without any objective need to do so, you committed the offense of detraction.

Why did you have any need to talk about her surgery at all, or to disclose more than you knew she wanted you to pass on? Seriously ask yourself: what good were you hoping to accomplish? Has someone given you jurisdiction to even have an opinion about other people’s spending habits or to make yourself into their religious superiors? When you read the lives of the saints, do they go around correcting people they have no office to correct? No, they don’t. That is because they know that those who have the office to correct will be held to a higher standard. Even when they have to bear that kind of office because of their place in their religious communities, they are too wise to go looking for that job!

One of the first things to learn if you want to be a contemplative is how to mind your own business. Nothing is more suspicious, in a man who seems holy, than an impatient desire to reform other men. A serious obstacle to recollection is the mania for directing those you have not been appointed to direct, reforming those you have not been asked to reform, correcting those over whom you have no jurisdiction. How can you do these things and keep your mind at rest? Renounce this futile concern with other men’s affairs! Pay as little attention as you can to the faults of other people, and none at all to their natural defects and eccentricities. --Thomas Merton

You have described instances of people being obnoxious and realizing they’re being obnoxious, not to mention being cruel and realizing they are being cruel, but excusing all of this because they’re “telling the truth.” It is right to not let them try to sugarcoat that with some nonsense rationalizations that imply that some people are just too sensitive.

When someone asks for your honest opinion, do not use that as an excuse to abandon kindness or to excuse callousness towards the feelings of others. Ask yourself whether or not the opinion you are offering is going to do any harm or not. Not whether it is harm they can “get over” but just whether or not you’re giving them something to “get over” at all, whether you are putting an obstacle to trusting you when they are hurt and in need.

If you want to be able to extend charity–and if you are in the habit of receiving Holy Communion, of course you would be–then you must act in a way that teaches people you are a safe person to approach when someone is in need of charity.

Ask if you can put your name in for the word “love” in St. Paul’s description of the most excellent way:

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Cor 13:4-7

You are right, then: If you can’t say something charitable, then do not let anyone induce you to say anything at all. Learn to listen with the ears of others and taste how what you are saying is going to sound to the ears that will be eating it up. You’ll do OK. It is the work of a lifetime, especially in our days of so many words and so much talking, but erring in the direction of charity is the right direction.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

If you knew she had given you her private information in confidence and you decided to tell someone anyway, you betrayed a confidence. If there was no understanding, but you had reason to believe that passing on the information might harm her reputation in some way without any objective need to do so, you committed the offense of detraction.

Why did you have any need to talk about her surgery at all, or to disclose more than you knew she wanted you to pass on? Seriously ask yourself: what good were you hoping to accomplish? Has someone given you jurisdiction to even have an opinion about other people’s spending habits or to make yourself into their religious superiors? When you read the lives of the saints, do they go around correcting people they have no office to correct? No, they don’t. That is because they know that those who have the office to correct will be held to a higher standard. Even when they have to bear that kind of office because of their place in their religious communities, they are too wise to go looking for that job!

One of the first things to learn if you want to be a contemplative is how to mind your own business. Nothing is more suspicious, in a man who seems holy, than an impatient desire to reform other men. A serious obstacle to recollection is the mania for directing those you have not been appointed to direct, reforming those you have not been asked to reform, correcting those over whom you have no jurisdiction. How can you do these things and keep your mind at rest? Renounce this futile concern with other men’s affairs! Pay as little attention as you can to the faults of other people, and none at all to their natural defects and eccentricities. --Thomas Merton

You have described instances of people being obnoxious and realizing they’re being obnoxious, not to mention being cruel and realizing they are being cruel, but excusing all of this because they’re “telling the truth.” It is right to not let them try to sugarcoat that with some nonsense rationalizations that imply that some people are just too sensitive.

When someone asks for your honest opinion, do not use that as an excuse to abandon kindness or to excuse callousness towards the feelings of others. Ask yourself whether or not the opinion you are offering is going to do any harm or not. Not whether it is harm they can “get over” but just whether or not you’re giving them something to “get over” at all, whether you are putting an obstacle to trusting you when they are hurt and in need.

If you want to be able to extend charity–and if you are in the habit of receiving Holy Communion, of course you would be–then you must act in a way that teaches people you are a safe person to approach when someone is in need of charity.

Ask if you can put your name in for the word “love” in St. Paul’s description of the most excellent way:

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Cor 13:4-7

You are right, then: If you can’t say something charitable, then do not let anyone induce you to say anything at all. Learn to listen with the ears of others and taste how what you are saying is going to sound to the ears that will be eating it up. You’ll do OK. It is the work of a lifetime, especially in our days of so many words and so much talking, but erring in the direction of charity is the right direction.

This is why I love the saints. How do you move to that level of morality?

 

[AbideWithMe]

This is why I love the saints. How do you move to that level of morality?

That is a great quote from Thomas Merton. Thanks, Easter Joy.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

This is why I love the saints. How do you move to that level of morality?

Prayer. Talk to God about these things rather to other than to others. And listen to God, read scripture, the writings of the saints and other Catholic spirituality and be still so you can hear God. Be still and be quiet. Try writing. Ask more questions than make statements and assertions. All of this is prayer. When we pray for some specific blessing, a job, for healing, the prayer is not only asking God for something, but also to orient our hearts to what God’s will is for us.

I get the cultural difference thing. The Polish side of my family more gossipy, bossy, and intrusive compared to the more reticent Danish side. I find the former kind of harsh even though they are good people. There is a balance to becoming a saint and still having a personality. I have no doubt that plenty of saints were bold like you are. I read what you wrote on some other threads and I thought you were articulate yet not strident. I think when something is personal, like surgery, or appearance, a softer touch, discretion may be more appropriate. It may or not be more virtuous so look to those who are holy for guidance and ask the Holy Spirit for help.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

Prayer. Talk to God about these things rather to other than to others. And listen to God, read scripture, the writings of the saints and other Catholic spirituality and be still so you can hear God. Be still and be quiet. Try writing. Ask more questions than make statements and assertions. All of this is prayer. When we pray for some specific blessing, a job, for healing, the prayer is not only asking God for something, but also to orient our hearts to what God’s will is for us.

I get the cultural difference thing. The Polish side of my family more gossipy, bossy, and intrusive compared to the more reticent Danish side. I find the former kind of harsh even though they are good people. There is a balance to becoming a saint and still having a personality. I have no doubt that plenty of saints were bold like you are. I read what you wrote on some other threads and I thought you were articulate yet not strident. I think when something is personal, like surgery, or appearance, a softer touch, discretion may be more appropriate. It may or not be more virtuous so look to those who are holy for guidance and ask the Holy Spirit for help.

It can be frustrating. Why aren’t people at the same maturity level? Some people don’t care what others have to say about them. Words are words. Some people harsh words can end a friendship, even though what I’m saying could be true. My older sister can detach herself from criticism of it is true, she doesn’t care how harshly delivered. Things are just true and false to her. Opinions are neither, she doesn’t care. Not everyone is the same, no matter how much I wish people were this simple or objective.
Isn’t the truth the bigger picture? Doesn’t the Lord want us to accept correction humbly regardless of whom is saying it?
Others have argued that some elements of people’s personal life are off limits. In families and close relationships it is easy to forget this. In my household the truth is incontrovertible.
Shame makes little to no difference. Harshness, we are family we can comment on anything we like and you should be able to take it. If you act correctly, no one will comment and if you prove you can take care of yourself no one will comment.
As for holy communion, I thought it was obvious. She shouldn’t start receiving holy communion because I suggested perhaps she should.
I’m not responsible for her actions. If she knows why she is not receiving holy communion, my opinion truly shouldn’t matter. A comment or suggestion is just that.
As for me commenting on her spending habits, of she is managing her money wisely, then brush it off.
Why can’t people simply brush off unsolicited advice instead of sulking?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

It can be frustrating. Why aren’t people at the same maturity level? Some people don’t care what others have to say about them. Words are words. Some people harsh words can end a friendship, even though what I’m saying could be true. My older sister can detach herself from criticism of it is true, she doesn’t care how harshly delivered. Things are just true and false to her. Opinions are neither, she doesn’t care. Not everyone is the same, no matter how much I wish people were this simple or objective.
Isn’t the truth the bigger picture? Doesn’t the Lord want us to accept correction humbly regardless of whom is saying it?
Others have argued that some elements of people’s personal life are off limits. In families and close relationships it is easy to forget this. In my household the truth is incontrovertible.
Shame makes little to no difference. Harshness, we are family we can comment on anything we like and you should be able to take it. If you act correctly, no one will comment and if you prove you can take care of yourself no one will comment.
As for holy communion, I thought it was obvious. She shouldn’t start receiving holy communion because I suggested perhaps she should.
I’m not responsible for her actions. If she knows why she is not receiving holy communion, my opinion truly shouldn’t matter. A comment or suggestion is just that.
As for me commenting on her spending habits, of she is managing her money wisely, then brush it off.
Why can’t people simply brush off unsolicited advice instead of sulking?

If you want to be like the saints or just want to be someone people enjoy being around then look inside your own self. Don’t be so concerned with others’ maturity but your own, don’t concern yourself with why a person doesn’t receive communion other than to pray. You asked how you could become a saint and right away were thinking about how other people might be falling short. You want other people to be more mature and I say: You first. You can’t make other people holier or change in any other way. But you can change you.

 

[AbideWithMe]

If you want to be like the saints or just want to be someone people enjoy being around then look inside your own self. Don’t be so concerned with others’ maturity but your own, don’t concern yourself with why a person doesn’t receive communion other than to pray. You asked how you could become a saint and right away were thinking about how other people might be falling short. You want other people to be more mature and I say: You first. You can’t make other people holier or change in any other way. But you can change you.

:yup: It’s that simple to make a start. Several people have talked about Matthew 7, where Jesus speaks about someone complaining about a little speck of sawdust in someone else’s eye while failing to remove the plank of wood in their own. Focus your concern on your own faults. Repeatedly call on your attention to turn away from getting obsessed with what others are doing and pay attention to your own shortcomings.

Literally “mind your own business.” Keep your mind, your attention, focus, energy all attending to your own business, or you’re like a gardener who’s so busy pointing out weeds in other people’s gardens that she doesn’t notice her own garden is dying of drought and her crops are shriveling.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

:yup: It’s that simple to make a start. Several people have talked about Matthew 7, where Jesus speaks about someone complaining about a little speck of sawdust in someone else’s eye while failing to remove the plank of wood in their own. Focus your concern on your own faults. Repeatedly call on your attention to turn away from getting obsessed with what others are doing and pay attention to your own shortcomings.

Literally “mind your own business.” Keep your mind, your attention, focus, energy all attending to your own business, or you’re like a gardener who’s so busy pointing out weeds in other people’s gardens that she doesn’t notice her own garden is dying of drought and her crops are shriveling.

Advice I need to tattoo on my wrist. “Mind your own business, Pelagia.”