Where did the anti-family vibe come from?

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Personally I think the traditional family structure works for a lot of families. But feminism didn;t come out of no where for no reason. in a perfect world I think the ideal of having men always being the providors and women always being the housewives would work. But we donlt live in a perfect world. I guess I just donlt see how you could bring out a world where everyone lived in a traditional family and not bring some of the bad that went along with it. Because despite what some people like to think there was a lot wrong in the world back in the old days. We tend to look at the past through rose colored glasses I think.
A fair point. There is no “perfect” point of man’s past history, and there will be no “perfect” manmade paradise in the future. The effects of Adam’s sin are still with us.

The errors of modern feminism are indeed an overreaction to real and serious problems. As Hilair Belloc said “heresies survive on the truth they contain.” Or in other words, if there wasn’t something authentically appealing about a lie, nobody would believe it.

Nostalgia does color many people’s views. Fulton Sheen said he had no patience for those who think everything old was good (or bad) or those those who think everything new was bad (or good). He added though that some of what people think of as “behind the times” is really beyond time.

Pax
 
I said a marriage that is not OPEN to children is lacking in love. I alsp specifically mentioned that some married couples are open to children, and for any number of reasons are not blessed with children. Those marriages certainly are full and loving marriages.

However, you view of love appears to be seriously off to me. You make it sound like someone “runs out” of love, and if a child is created it will take up some of the love a spouse would have for their husband or wife.

Yes, children do take energy. A lot of energy some times. Yes, they can leave you feeling run down and tired, and not in the mood to be mushy with your spouse. Guess what? That’s all part of the love of a marriage.
And again, I disagree. A marriage that is not open to children is not lacking in love one bit. I remain convinced that a marriage that closes itself off to children can actually have more love because both partners can focus entirely on each other.

In fact, you seem to share my view of love that you claim is off, but you don’t want to admit it. If that’s part of the love of a marriage, well, that is taking up the love a person would have for their spouse. There’s no other way to put it.

It doesn’t have to be part of the love of a marriage. There is another choice. You can choose not to have children. For some people, it’s the best possible option. I am very blessed to have a wonderful woman that I will never have children with.
 
And again, I disagree. A marriage that is not open to children is not lacking in love one bit. I remain convinced that a marriage that closes itself off to children can actually have more love because both partners can focus entirely on each other.
The Catholic understanding of love and marriage is that children are manifestations of the love between the spouses.

“Focusing on each other” is not the Catholic understanding of love; it is the Catholic understanding of selfishness. If you loved your wife fully, you would necessarily be open to children because that is an integral part of marital love.
 
The Catholic understanding of love and marriage is that children are manifestations of the love between the spouses.

“Focusing on each other” is not the Catholic understanding of love; it is the Catholic understanding of selfishness. If you loved your wife fully, you would necessarily be open to children because that is an integral part of marital love.
True, and also loving one’s spouse includes wanting them to go to heaven. Loving God means following His commandments.

Just as the boyfriend who gets his girlfriend to lie to her parents and sneak around behind their backs does not really love the girlfriend or her parents, a spouse who refuses to live by God’s commandments and encourages their wife/husband to do likewise, is failing to love both God and their spouse.

We all do this in varying ways. We all sin. There is a big difference between sinning and knowing you sin and sinning and believing the sin was just. Then-Cardinal Ratzinger makes this point in On Conscience when he points out that the man who murders and feels guilt is not in nearly as much trouble as the man who murders and feels no guilt. That second man is still guilty of blinding himself to what God has written in his heart.

Pax Christi
 
The Catholic understanding of love and marriage is that children are manifestations of the love between the spouses.

“Focusing on each other” is not the Catholic understanding of love; it is the Catholic understanding of selfishness. If you loved your wife fully, you would necessarily be open to children because that is an integral part of marital love.
Dear Baelor,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

Hear, hear, jolly well said and bang on target.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Well said, and I tend to agree.👍

I only have only two questions:

(1.) Do you think that in exchange for their unpaid labor, women should have equal authority over the husband’s finances and,

(2.) Why do you sound like a swashbuckling 18th century nobleman?😃
Dear lerapt78,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response.

The work undertaken by a wife within the home is not only a duty but also a labour of love in which she should take delight, just as the husband should take a delight in earning the money to support his family. Neither spouse, therefore, should consider themselves as non-contributing beneficiaries of the others labour, dear friend.

As regards financial affairs, the husband and wife will surely discuss together how their money is to be spent and what it is to be spent on. However, since the husband is head of the wife, in the event of a conflict of opinion that cannot be resolved by discussion, the husband must have the final say as head of the household. Now provided, dear friend, that the husband’s manner is not overbearing, then I would say that most most pious women would submit themselves to their husband’s decision, respecting him as head of the family.

I say, I say, “swashbuckling 18th century nobleman” - I really like that, my dear friend. In traditional English usage ‘jolly’ was frequently used as an expression of hearty approval, especially among those associated with the upper eschelons of society, what we used to call over here ‘the old school tie brigade’ (that is chaps from a privilleged public school (fee paying) background). Now these sort of fellows could often be heard making remarks such as, “Jolly splendid show, old chap”, to express their approval of, for example, a job well done by someone. Now, I must confess, that I do use an adaption of this lovely quaint phrase here on CAF when I think a contributor has written a well, ‘jolly good’ post with which I heartly concur. For example, I did exactly that in my response to Baelor’s post above, earlier. Moreover, I believe that in an impersonal medium such as the interweb, it does help to convey some warmth and cordiality, hence also my use the term, “cordial greetings…”.

You may be interested to know, dear friend, that the pharse ‘jolly good’/ ‘jolly decent of you’ was widely used by officers in the British armed forces, especially those serving in the Royal Air Force. They could often be heard addressing a man as ‘old chap’ or ‘old boy’, which, I hasten to add, had absolutely nothing to do with the actual age of the fellow so addressed, but was just the ‘Hooray Henry’ type speak of upper-class Englishmen of those times. They would even address a woman, irrespective of her age, as ‘old girl’, but it was just a lovely term of endearment and nobody was took offence. How times have changed.

Well, dear friend, it’s jolly good to make your acquintance on these boards and may you have a jolly splendid day.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
And again, I disagree. A marriage that is not open to children is not lacking in love one bit. I remain convinced that a marriage that closes itself off to children can actually have more love because both partners can focus entirely on each other.

In fact, you seem to share my view of love that you claim is off, but you don’t want to admit it. If that’s part of the love of a marriage, well, that is taking up the love a person would have for their spouse. There’s no other way to put it.

It doesn’t have to be part of the love of a marriage. There is another choice. You can choose not to have children. For some people, it’s the best possible option. I am very blessed to have a wonderful woman that I will never have children with.
I myself have trouble with the whole “want” children thing. You and I, we live in an age where children have become a choice, you can choose to have them by any means including IVF, or you can choose not to have them by any means including abortion. We’ve lost the original meaning of “children are what happens when two married people love each other”. This makes it hard for us as Catholics when we have to go back and accept that children are not a choice (either for or against), they are a gift from God.

I’ve recently taken comfort in the fact that Mary, at one point, chose to follow God completely and decided she would remain a virgin for her entire life. She would have realized that by making this choice she would never be a mother or have children, not to say she didn’t want to, but that she would put God first and sacrifice this other path. She knew her life devoted to God would not include children. Then God sent her his messengar asking if she would cooperate with his plan and have his son, which she said “yes” to. I feel like Mary can be a great example of married love for us here today. We need to be willing to say “yes” to God, even if it is scary, even if it changes all the plans we had laid down for our lives, we need to trust he knows what is best.
 
I myself have trouble with the whole “want” children thing. You and I, we live in an age where children have become a choice, you can choose to have them by any means including IVF, or you can choose not to have them by any means including abortion. We’ve lost the original meaning of “children are what happens when two married people love each other”. This makes it hard for us as Catholics when we have to go back and accept that children are not a choice (either for or against), they are a gift from God.
But children are a choice, and they should be. The Lord chose to give us free will to determine our own paths to Him, and it’s up to us to decide whether or not we want that to include children. Not all of us see them as a gift.
The Catholic understanding of love and marriage is that children are manifestations of the love between the spouses.

“Focusing on each other” is not the Catholic understanding of love; it is the Catholic understanding of selfishness. If you loved your wife fully, you would necessarily be open to children because that is an integral part of marital love.
Not true. It’s because I love my eventual wife fully that I am not open to children. I love her too much to put her through something that neither of us want. Children are not necessary to a loving marriage and can actually detract from it.

If you want to call me selfish, I have no problem with you thinking that. I’d rather be considered selfish for not wanting children and have a life I love than have children and resent them.
 
But children are a choice, and they should be. The Lord chose to give us free will to determine our own paths to Him, and it’s up to us to decide whether or not we want that to include children. Not all of us see them as a gift.

Not true. It’s because I love my eventual wife fully that I am not open to children. I love her too much to put her through something that neither of us want. Children are not necessary to a loving marriage and can actually detract from it.

If you want to call me selfish, I have no problem with you thinking that. I’d rather be considered selfish for not wanting children and have a life I love than have children and resent them.
Dear NightHawk2005,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Your remarks above, dear friend, seem rather difficult to harmonise with the sentiments expressed by the Psalmist in Sacred Scripture:

“Behold, sons are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons of one’s youth.
Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them!”

(Psalm 127: 3-5)

Children are God’s precious gift, dear friend. If they are withheld then it is God who withholds them, not us (Gen. 30: 2) and if they are given then it is God who blesses us with them (Gen. 33: 5). Moreover, children are to be accounted blessings to us and not burdens and what the Psalmist says here is that the family with many children is like a quiver full of arrows, notwiststanding that these arrows sometimes prove to be arrows in the heart by being a source of much grief to devout parents.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
But children are a choice, and they should be. The Lord chose to give us free will to determine our own paths to Him, and it’s up to us to decide whether or not we want that to include children. Not all of us see them as a gift.
Children are not a choice. Marriage is a structure that finds full meaning in children; one of the requirements of marriage and marital love is being open to life. This is basic marital theology.
Not true. It’s because I love my eventual wife fully that I am not open to children.
Impossible according to Catholic teaching, because to love your wife fully means to want to raise children with her.
If you want to call me selfish, I have no problem with you thinking that. I’d rather be considered selfish for not wanting children and have a life I love than have children and resent them.
Which means you should not be married according to Catholic teaching.
 
But children are a choice, and they should be. The Lord chose to give us free will to determine our own paths to Him, and it’s up to us to decide whether or not we want that to include children. Not all of us see them as a gift.

Not true. It’s because I love my eventual wife fully that I am not open to children. I love her too much to put her through something that neither of us want. Children are not necessary to a loving marriage and can actually detract from it.

If you want to call me selfish, I have no problem with you thinking that. I’d rather be considered selfish for not wanting children and have a life I love than have children and resent them.
You are absolutely right. Children are a choice, and you are free to choose not to have them. Not everyone does see them as a gift. I don’t see children as a gift, I see them as a burden personally (but am praying to change that). However as Catholics, we believe that children are one of the principal goods of marriage so if you choose to forgo children, then you chose to forgo marriage. If you choose to get married you will vow to lovingly accept children from God. If you choose to get married you should expect children to show up whether you want them there or not. Marriage involves promising to love and raise the children God gives you. You however can chose not to get married.

I, personally, am scared to death of pregnancy. My best friend is pregnant right now and she says it is like having the flu only not being able to take medicine and it lasting months on end. That doesn’t exactly sound appealing to me. Not to mention I’ve always had sleep problems and suffer from sleep deprivation by feeling so ill I throw up. That means the infant stages of child development will place me in a very difficult position. When stressed I struggle with anger management, (who doesn’t) to the point I used to self harm. This is another struggle I’ll face with raising children. My DH doesn’t understand children at all and has trouble even being around them so both of us will be in way over our heads. I have prayed that I’ll find that I am infertile probably more times than I can count. But the bottom line is I really love my DH and if the price of being with him for the rest of my life is I have to be open to kids, then I’m willing to pay it. I don’t have to actively seek to have them, I just have to not do anything to prevent them if God wants to send them my way. Trusting God to know what is best on the issue of having children is probably the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
 
You are absolutely right. Children are a choice, and you are free to choose not to have them. Not everyone does see them as a gift. I don’t see children as a gift, I see them as a burden personally (but am praying to change that). However as Catholics, we believe that children are one of the principal goods of marriage so if you choose to forgo children, then you chose to forgo marriage. If you choose to get married you will vow to lovingly accept children from God. If you choose to get married you should expect children to show up whether you want them there or not. Marriage involves promising to love and raise the children God gives you. You however can chose not to get married.

I, personally, am scared to death of pregnancy. My best friend is pregnant right now and she says it is like having the flu only not being able to take medicine and it lasting months on end. That doesn’t exactly sound appealing to me. Not to mention I’ve always had sleep problems and suffer from sleep deprivation by feeling so ill I throw up. That means the infant stages of child development will place me in a very difficult position. When stressed I struggle with anger management, (who doesn’t) to the point I used to self harm. This is another struggle I’ll face with raising children. My DH doesn’t understand children at all and has trouble even being around them so both of us will be in way over our heads. I have prayed that I’ll find that I am infertile probably more times than I can count. But the bottom line is I really love my DH and if the price of being with him for the rest of my life is I have to be open to kids, then I’m willing to pay it. I don’t have to actively seek to have them, I just have to not do anything to prevent them if God wants to send them my way. Trusting God to know what is best on the issue of having children is probably the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
Dear akela,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Children should never be considered a burden, being a wonderful blessing from God, and I am pleased to hear that you are in prayer regarding your feelings upon this matter, dear sister.

In our great Christian tradition, in most civil law traditions and in the laws of Holy Mother Church, openess to at least the possibility of children has been considered an essential element of any valid marriage. Thus, dear sister, openess to the possibility of children does mean that neither spouse has a wilful intention not to have children. If either spouse does have any such intention, saying in effect, “I do not want any children in this marriage and do not intend to have any”, an essential condition of marriage is wanting in their union.

May I kindly suggest, dear sister, that you request an appointment with your parish priest, or another priest with whom you feel that you can confide, and, along with your husband, discuss this matter and the concerns to which you advert to in your second paragraph.

Finally, may I just say that many of the pains associated with child-bearing are on account of the unhappy consequences of Original Sin. The sorrows of child-bearing include not only the actual birth itself, but also the indispositions prior to it, indeed, one could say that it is sorrow from the moment of conception. However, this should not surprise us, dear sister, for it is written: “To the woman he (God) said, I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” (Gen. 3: 16, parenthesis mine). Thus bearing and having children is a very difficult business for a woman and I can appreciate your concerns and apprehensions. The prophet Isaiah speaks of a pregnant woman “who writhes and cries out in her pangs, when she is near her time” (Is. 26: 17). Neverthless, on the positive side, child-bearing has its consolations, for the mother’s sorrow is turned into joy at the actual birth of a son or daughter possessing an immortal soul (see St. John 16: 21). At length any anguish will become a distant memory and your child, provided they are reared in godliness, will be the occasion of much happiness for you and your husband.

God bless and be assured of my prayers for you and your husband this day, dear sister.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Dear akela,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Children should never be considered a burden, being a wonderful blessing from God, and I am pleased to hear that you are in prayer regarding your feelings upon this matter, dear sister.

In our great Christian tradition, in most civil law traditions and in the laws of Holy Mother Church, openess to at least the possibility of children has been considered an essential element of any valid marriage. Thus, dear sister, openess to the possibility of children does mean that neither spouse has a wilful intention not to have children. If either spouse does have any such intention, saying in effect, “I do not want any children in this marriage and do not intend to have any”, an essential condition of marriage is wanting in their union.

May I kindly suggest, dear sister, that you request an appointment with your parish priest, or another priest with whom you feel that you can confide, and, along with your husband, discuss this matter and the concerns to which you advert to in your second paragraph.

Finally, may I just say that many of the pains associated with child-bearing are on account of the unhappy consequences of Original Sin. The sorrows of child-bearing include not only the actual birth itself, but also the indispositions prior to it, indeed, one could say that it is sorrow from the moment of conception. However, this should not surprise us, dear sister, for it is written: “To the woman he (God) said, I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” (Gen. 3: 16, parenthesis mine). Thus bearing and having children is a very difficult business for a woman and I can appreciate your concerns and apprehensions. The prophet Isaiah speaks of a pregnant woman “who writhes and cries out in her pangs, when she is near her time” (Is. 26: 17). Neverthless, on the positive side, child-bearing has its consolations, for the mother’s sorrow is turned into joy at the actual birth of a son or daughter possessing an immortal soul (see St. John 16: 21). At length any anguish will become a distant memory and your child, provided they are reared in godliness, will be the occasion of much happiness for you and your husband.

God bless and be assured of my prayers for you and your husband this day, dear sister.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
I actually have spoken with a priest. He understands my feelings but as my DH and I are not doing anything against Catholic teaching, by willingly engaging in open relations when either spouse is in the mood and accepting that such acts can and will result in children when God sees fit, we are actually okay. Many people say they did not want children until they had their own, after the case they were glad they did, and thus it has been suggested that we will be the same way. By trusting and being open to God’s will he will provide for us the proper graces to be good parents, when and if he chooses to bless us in such a way.

An example to explain my position would be waking up on Sunday morning and thinking that one does not want to go to church that day. That really there are others things one would prefer to do and church would just be in the way. But understanding that Mass is important and dragging oneself there anyway, then a few minutes after the Mass starts thinking how wonderfully happy one is that they followed God’s command because they truly want to be there and are thrilled to be able to celebrate God’s goodness in such a way. In this example my DH and I find ourselves in the position of driving in our car towards the church while still thinking “I know this is good for us, but think of what else I could be doing right now?” We are both grumbly that God would expect such a thing from us, but we wish to honor and trust in him so are forcing ourselves to comply until we can truly understand and see the beauty of what he has in store for us.

As every person is at a different place spiritually, all one can do is keep working on getting closer to God one step at a time. Our priest who has known us for a long time can see that we are moving in the right direction, even if we still have a long way to go. Another example would be if I were to be walking from the East to West coast of America and a person were to call me from California when I was still in say, Kentucky. This person might say “What? Why haven’t you reached the West coast yet? I can see it from right here! Obiviously you must be doing something wrong if you aren’t here! You need to get here right now or you’ll be in trouble!” This person might have good intentions but I still would be unable to teleport myself to the coast. I would have to keep walking, knowing I still had a long ardous journey ahead of myself. However I can look back and say, “I’ve come so far already and I’ve done that one step at a time, if I just keep moving one day I will reach the West coast so no giving up!”

I recognize that I’m a sinner and not where God wants me to be spiritually, so I am trying and I trust in God as much as I am currently able. That doesn’t mean I suddenly become a saint. It means that perhaps tomorrow I can trust him more than today, and perhaps the day after tomorrow I can see things a bit more in line with how he wants me to see them.

I wanted to try and illustrate to NightHawk that there was a time (and days) I felt (and feel) similiarly to him and that as a Catholic who wants to follow God I’m working on overcoming those feelings and seeing this issue in a way that is pleasing to God. However that journey is one that is personally hard for me. I honestly believe God wants me on this journey just because it is hard for me. The way of the cross was meant to be challenging and to make us face parts of ourselves that do need to be purified and reformed with God’s grace. I could have run from these feelings and hidden in a convent, but I didn’t feel that was what God was calling me to do. I truly felt God called me to my spouse because he knew together we could work through our feelings and help guide each other to heaven in the process. I do however feel God is willing to meet us where we are at and give us the grace to draw closer to him if we put our trust in him.

I hope this makes sense. My thoughts on this issue are not often coherent just because there is an inner struggle between doing the right thing and giving in to temptations.
 
You are absolutely right. Children are a choice, and you are free to choose not to have them. Not everyone does see them as a gift. I don’t see children as a gift, I see them as a burden personally (but am praying to change that). However as Catholics, we believe that children are one of the principal goods of marriage so if you choose to forgo children, then you chose to forgo marriage. If you choose to get married you will vow to lovingly accept children from God. If you choose to get married you should expect children to show up whether you want them there or not. Marriage involves promising to love and raise the children God gives you. You however can chose not to get married.
I do not see it that way. To me, marriage involves promising to love and be faithful to the person you are committing to spend the rest of your life with. I also see children as a burden, and as such, I’m not going to have them. I will, however, marry and spend my life with the woman I love, who loves me enough that she has offered to make herself infertile for me (she doesn’t want kids either, but that’s still a great offer of sacrifice and love on her part regardless).

And you’re asking me to not marry this woman that God has made for me? I cannot and will not do that. I will forgo children, I will not forgo marriage.
 
Dear NightHawk2005,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Your remarks above, dear friend, seem rather difficult to harmonise with the sentiments expressed by the Psalmist in Sacred Scripture:

“Behold, sons are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the sons of one’s youth.
Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them!”

(Psalm 127: 3-5)

Children are God’s precious gift, dear friend. If they are withheld then it is God who withholds them, not us (Gen. 30: 2) and if they are given then it is God who blesses us with them (Gen. 33: 5). Moreover, children are to be accounted blessings to us and not burdens and what the Psalmist says here is that the family with many children is like a quiver full of arrows, notwiststanding that these arrows sometimes prove to be arrows in the heart by being a source of much grief to devout parents.
I will always see them as a burden, not a blessing. I have seen so many people whose happiness is lessened because they had children. From my point of view, happy is the man with an empty quiver.
 
I do not see it that way. To me, marriage involves promising to love and be faithful to the person you are committing to spend the rest of your life with. I also see children as a burden, and as such, I’m not going to have them. I will, however, marry and spend my life with the woman I love, who loves me enough that she has offered to make herself infertile for me (she doesn’t want kids either, but that’s still a great offer of sacrifice and love on her part regardless).

And you’re asking me to not marry this woman that God has made for me? I cannot and will not do that. I will forgo children, I will not forgo marriage.
Forgive me for not knowing how to quote multiple posts. The above post is simply a representative.:o

Did I stumble into ‘Cafeteria Catholic.com’? :eek: Many of these posters identify themselves as ‘Catholic’, yet apparently don’t understand what that means. The church is very clear on it’s teaching about marriage and children and since marriage is a sacrament it’s not something that’s up for much discussion with ‘opinion’ and how each individual sees the topic. The point of marriage is to be open to life. If you aren’t open to life, you should not enter into the sacrament of matrimony. :nope:
 
No, it isn’t. The point of marriage is to love the person you choose to spend your life with and become one unit with that person.
That is not the Catholic understanding of marriage. Otherwise the Church would not teach that openness to life is a required component of marriage.

Catholic teaching is absolutely clear.

The USCCB states that openness to life is a required component of marriage. It also teaches that procreation (and, I would posit, the rearing of children for those couples who choose to adopt) is one of the fundamental purposes of marriage:
USCCB:
These points establish the foundation for the four characteristics of the
marital union (mutual consent, permanency, exclusivity, openness to life)
and the twofold end of marriage (the good of the spouses and the procreation
and education of children
). (See CCC, nos. 2363‐2371.)
You may even read the Catechism at your leisure, which will support the same thing. Casti Conubii and other encyclicals related to children, marriage, or contraception (e.g. H.V. will also all be in concord.

There is really nothing to discuss here. If you would like to argue against the Church position, then it will take more than what you and your wife want to bring tumbling down a theology that has existed for over a thousand years. That is, what is your theological basis for simply dismissing explicit Church teaching?

Also, I would talk to your priest.
 
That is not the Catholic understanding of marriage. Otherwise the Church would not teach that openness to life is a required component of marriage.
Of course it is. In Genesis, it is stated a man will leave his father and mother and become one flesh with his wife. Nowhere does it mention children in that statement. The idea that children are absolutely necessary in marriage is antiquated and simply holds women back. If you want children, have them. If you don’t, you don’t have to have them.
 
Genesis 1:28:

“And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.”

You continue, either intentionally or unintentionally to mischaracterize the position of others in this thread. I don’t see anyone saying that the Church teaches, or they personally believe that having children is necessary for a marriage to be loving. Some couples simply are not blessed with children.

What I and others have argued and presented ample evidence for, is that being open to having children is necessary for a marriage to be loving.

Pax
 
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