Where I struggle with abortion

[VanitasVanitatum]

Do you have any ideas for solving those problems?

 

[Delphinus]

How can one love someone who was conceived through a violent action? I know that child is innocent. But that child is the result of a violent action.

And children conceived out of wedlock are the product of a sin. I say that as one such child, so don’t think I’m judging! I say it to make a point: a child is NOT guilty of the sins of the father/mother. The child didn’t ask be be conceived in such a way, the child should not be punished for those sins he or she did not commit.

No one is asking that the child be loved. They are merely suggesting that the child not be murdered and the woman not made to feel that her own child, her flesh and blood (because it is, regardless of where the male DNA came from!) is worthless and asked to commit an act of violence against her own child and further cause injury to herself.

There is also the fact that I have never once heard of any woman who carried a baby conceived by rape to term who regretted her choice or did not love that child. It’s still her baby, her flesh and blood, a piece of her own heart.

 

[PJH_74]

Do you have any ideas for solving those problems?

Hard work. Admitting when your ideals, no matter how noble, intersect with other intractable realities that are either the result of competing truths or your limitations. There is no real answer, only awareness of wider world and a truth beyond yourself. Faith is supposed to embody that, not some rituals to be done exactly the right way.

 

[on_the_hill]

See above. And if you are a man (especially white ones) you have no point of reference to feeling vulnerable to the actions of men who feel entitled to their opinions just because they assume their perception is the same as the rest of humanity.

]
Well, I had been seriously reading your post and was thinking about it…but you just lost your credibility with that. I’m woke, but I’m not woke to the point that I’ll martyr myself.

 

[phil19034]

Thank God this is an issue that no one in my family has had to face.
Where I struggle with abortion is when it comes to rape or the health of a mother’s life.
If any of the women in my family were raped and that rape resulted in a pregnancy, it would be hard to for me to accept that child. I realize that the child is innocent, but it is also the result of a violent act perpetrated against a love one.
If having a child were to result in the death of the mother, that would be hard for me to accept. Again, I realize that the child is innocent. But to see the mother’s life taken for the sake of a new born being. It is hard to think about.
Let me say that I do not favor abortion, but I have thought about these two things.
God bless all who have faced these situations in their lives.

I’m going to answer this with two posts.

The first regarding rape.

Let’s assume for a moment that you had a family member who got pregnant and when her boyfriend found out, he left her. He wants nothing to do with the baby and the mother wants to keep the child. Would you have a problem accepting the child because mom gave birth out of wedlock and broke her heart? Would you look at the child and always think of forication and the dead beat dad? Or would you see a beautiful child of God and not judge that child based on the sins of the parents?

Saying no abortion after rape is a hard discussion to have. However, adoption is an option. Furthermore, I think far too many people look at the negative here instead of the heroic virtue. Every woman who gives birth to a child conceived in rape is a hero. These women should be celebrated in their families.

The problem is the fact that society still (unintentionally) shames women who have been raped. Most women who want to abort do so out of a sense of shame. They don’t want to be reminded, etc. But honestly, how can a women ever forget?

Additionally, having the child is not just heroic, but it’s also an opportunity to create a positive out of an evil & horrific situation. God often creates opportunities of holiness when there is gave evil.

Anyway… I’m a man, and some will say that I don’t know what it’s like for a woman. However, I know this - I have heard MANY women talk about keeping their child conceived in rape. And never, have I heard about a story where a woman regretted giving birth to the child, even if she gave the child up for adoption.

Why - because most people don’t regret heroic acts.

God bless

 

[YourNameHere]

I respectfully disagree.

 

[1ke]

And if you are a man (especially white ones) you have no point of reference to feeling vulnerable to the actions of men who feel entitled to their opinions just because they assume their perception is the same as the rest of humanity.

Everyone has a right to speak out on injustice.

This isn’t a female issue.

 

[Maximilian75]

Who speaks for the 100s of thousands that US military action has killed either directly or indirectly through destabilizing countries in the name of US desires? Why when the military kills innocent bystanders to take out “bad” guys, are these people “collateral” damage? Are you willing to speak out for the millions Yemeni of children facing massive disease and famine while US made Saudi airplanes attack them and the US does nothing about it?

Whataboutism.

This thread is about abortion, not the war crimes of the US.

While there’s very little that the average Joe or Sally can do about the military-industrial complex, nearly anybody can get sidewalk counselor training, donate diapers, money, and time, and save lives of innocent children.

 

[skelly]

Ok. Do you also want to strip away all the good dine by white men. Plenty of progress made because if white men.

And plenty of men in the white category have been victims of genocide and other atrocities. You need to look at the whole picture of history.

 

[1ke]

don’t like abortion, but the world of who gets to live when another person feels otherwise (especially with strong reasons) or is not willing to lay their lives down is messy.

So because not all of the injustices in the world are solved, we must allow this one to continue?

That’s illogical.

 

[Maximilian75]

Agreed.
That statement removes white men from the abolition, women’s rights, and Civil Rights movements, all where they were vital.

White, Jewish men, alternately, were the target of the Holocaust, one of the worst human rights violations in history.

 

[phil19034]

Thank God this is an issue that no one in my family has had to face.
Where I struggle with abortion is when it comes to rape or the health of a mother’s life.
If any of the women in my family were raped and that rape resulted in a pregnancy, it would be hard to for me to accept that child. I realize that the child is innocent, but it is also the result of a violent act perpetrated against a love one.
If having a child were to result in the death of the mother, that would be hard for me to accept. Again, I realize that the child is innocent. But to see the mother’s life taken for the sake of a new born being. It is hard to think about.
Let me say that I do not favor abortion, but I have thought about these two things.
God bless all who have faced these situations in their lives.

Life of the mother is actually an easier issue to address because it’s primarily based on myth.

1. There are two kinds of “life of the mother” issues. The first is when there is an abortion because of a potential life threatening issue for the mother. The 2nd is when the mother is actively in danger of losing her life.

• Killing the child because of a potential issue isn’t warranted. It’s akin to killing a criminal because he MIGHT murder someone else.
• When the mother’s life is actively in danger is where the myths come in. Catholic Ethicists teach that it is permissible to have a c-section in order to save the mother’s life when she actively in danger. The goal is to save the mother’s life and not to directly kill the child. The doctors should then do everything possible to save the child. If the child is old enough, then the child will grow up and God willing be fine. However, if the child is very small, then perhaps the parents and/or family will have time to baptize the baby, see the child last few moments of life, and then bring the baby home for burial.

While some Catholics and even Popes in the past stated that it is wrong deliver a c-section baby not up to term, today, we have better medical technology and doctors are not simply experimenting like they were in centuries past. Therefore, the abortion for the life of the mother is more of a myth than anything else.

Finally, in my opinion, what is really causing this “health of the mother” issue to become bigger is IVF. When a women cannot have her eggs fertilized inside her body, there is often something wrong with her body. Impregnating her with IVF can be very dangerous because it never addresses the reason her body was preventing conception.

I hope this helps a little.

God bless

 

[phil19034]

I respectfully disagree.

with what point(s)?

 

[Thom18]

Brendan_64:

So who speaks for the innocent little person who has no choice?

Who speaks for the 100s of thousands that US military action has killed either directly or indirectly through destabilizing countries in the name of US desires? Why when the military kills innocent bystanders to take out “bad” guys, are these people “collateral” damage? Are you willing to speak out for the millions Yemeni of children facing massive disease and famine while US made Saudi airplanes attack them and the US does nothing about it? I don’t like abortion, but the world of who gets to live when another person feels otherwise (especially with strong reasons) or is not willing to lay their lives down is messy.

It is a place where everyone can speak: the corner of injustice and dehumanization of the child.

See above. And if you are a man (especially white ones) you have no point of reference to feeling vulnerable to the actions of men who feel entitled to their opinions just because they assume their perception is the same as the rest of humanity.

Everyone has the right to speak out against injustice (yes, even the white males you antagonize here). I might turn this around on you and ask how you can claim any sort of moral high ground for “caring” about those killed due to US military operations when you seem to have no care for the genocide of infants that our government has made legal at home.

Abortion is intrinsically evil, and trying to hide that evil by pointing out other evils is wrong.

 

[therese1998]

Why in the world should a child die because his or her father is a rapist?

I don’t understand not being able to love your child because someone else did something awful to them. Even so, it is a person’s right to feel how they feel. In that case, what’s wrong with putting the baby up for adoption? Discomfort (both physical and emotional)) on the part of the mother should be lovingly and carefully treated and validated but doesn’t stand as an excuse for the deliberate and calculated termination of the life of another.

If the mother can’t bring herself to love and care for the child, then would there be insurmountable mental pain when placing for adoption?

You are championing for the care and comfort of the mother, which is Noble and good, but why can’t you also champion for the human life inside her?

 

[Anicette]

The 2 situations are not exactly the same.

In case of a child conceived by rape, we can say there is no good that can followed from the evol murderer of the child. The way is not good and the end not. So not moral at all.

In the case of saving the life of the mother, it is a little different. The act is immoral, for a mixed good: to save a life by killling another. It is not good.
It can be difficult to understand, but some saints have followed this path, such as Gianna Beretta Molla.
Some women may want to save the child because they have an illness that can be hard to cure, or incurable, such as cancer, and they definitely want that at least their child lived.
In some situations, I think of ectopic pregnancies, killing the child does not bear such moral burdens, because the child will die anyway. It is permissible.

 

[Crocus]

If any of the women in my family were raped and that rape resulted in a pregnancy, it would be hard to for me to accept that child.

I am heartened that you say “hard” to accept, rather than “impossible.” I can only hope that you would fully support a family member faced with that challenge, despite your strong feelings to the contrary. A mother and child deserve all the love you can give.

 

[Maximilian75]

As for the men, absolutely yes, there have been men who have been great allies to many causes. However the tendency for men, especially non-minorities, is to fill the room and take over the space. It’s really something society teaches them. I’ve watched this happen so often.

How is this relevant for this discussion, or cancel out the pro-life work that these privileged, evil white males, do?

 

[Horton]

As for the men, absolutely yes, there have been men who have been great allies to many causes. However the tendency for men, especially non-minorities, is to fill the room and take over the space. It’s really something society teaches them. I’ve watched this happen so often.

You need to add the words, “in my humble opinion” to this. You saying you “watched this happen so often” does not make it true, it only makes it your opinion.

FWIW I am not a white man.

 

[skelly]

All the atrocities of war and starvation are evil and need to be stopped. How do we begin to develop a society that stops that when we don’t develop a society that protects the most innocent and vulnerable among us. As has been feared all along we are now essentially debating the legality of infanticide. New York, Virginia, Vermont have all passed law that has opened up the option of legal infanticide. How many breaths can a baby take before it is illegal to kill him? How long do we let him lay there comfortably while the decision is made whether or not to let him live or kill him?