Where I struggle with abortion

[PJH_74]

it only makes it your opinion.

and so yours too.

You need to add the words, “in my humble opinion” to this. You saying you “watched this happen so often” does not make it true, it only makes it your opinion.

With all due respect, I’ve done reasonably more work and lived experience than most here on this sort of topic. If we want to get picky, “I’ve watched this” means intrinsically, and essentially literally, that it is my observed experience.

All the atrocities of war and starvation are evil and need to be stopped. How do we begin to develop a society that stops that when we don’t develop a society that protects the most innocent and vulnerable among us.

This is a somewhat philosophical point, but why not start with starvation and war? I’ve seen way higher and narrower definition of right to life being defined as abortion here. I think, certainly it’s my observation, that this is more comfortable because it doesn’t require us to think about the effects of Nationalism and belief in Exceptionalism.

 

[1ke]

How is this relevant for this discussion, or cancel out the pro-life work that these privileged, evil white males, do?

I think PJH thinks I’m a man.

 

[KathleenT]

The problem is…unless you are the person who was raped and conceived the child, you don’t have say. If someone in your family conceived a child through rape and decided to keep the baby, how is it loving or kind to refuse to accept the child?

If the Mother and victim can move past the act and see the child for who he or she is…a lovely innocent person, how could you insist you have more “right” to hold a grudge?

Families grow. We do not have control over how or when they grow. Siblings may marry people we don’t care for, children may be adopted or born, people die. The people who come into your life as family come from God. Remember “what you do to the least, you do to Me.”

We are called to love our neighbors and our enemies…even when they make us uncomfortable.

 

[skelly]

Not sure why you want to go there about Nationalism and Exceptionalism. Where there is no vision the people perish. A strong unified nation is less likely to be Balkanized, invaded and committed genocide upon, colonised and collapse into anarchy and civil war. Humanity is composed of families, tribes, nations. Concept of exceptionalism goes back to Father Abraham, the nation of Israel and the Church. All cultures have an idea of nationalism and exceptionalism and can only be unified in two ways The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Darkness. Not sure why the protection of babies isn’t something we all can’t get behind. I mean the United Nations considers abortion a human right. What other human right is defined by the right to slaughter an innocent and helpless human being?

 

[on_the_hill]

However the tendency for men, especially non-minorities, is to fill the room and take over the space. It’s really something society teaches them. I’ve watched this happen so often.

To quote Homer Simpson, “It’s true! It’s true! We’re so lame!”

 

[on_the_hill]

I often do, too. 1ke looks like Ike. Like Dwight “Ike” Eisenhower, or Ike & Tina Turner.

 

[KathleenT]

You are full of it. Men victimize men too. Insisting men can’t understand a perspective just because they are male is as narrow-minded and wrong-headed as insisting women can’t understand concepts because they are women. And I know you are not so foolish as to insist the color of someone’s skin is enough to disqualify them. You really want to open that door again? You really think that’s a good idea?

As white males are often fathers, they have every right to speak up about abortion. That’s what fathers do, they protect their children.

 

[PJH_74]

I think PJH thinks I’m a man.

And if you are a man…

I don’t care about your sex. But, saying everyone has a right to speak on the topic is a discounting of a deeply disturbing experience a raped, especially pregnant rape victim. That kind of statement is most likely to be made by a man.

 

[KathleenT]

Everyone DOES have the right to speak on any topic.

Take it up with God, if that annoys you. He gave us free will.

 

[on_the_hill]

1ke:

I think PJH thinks I’m a man.

And if you are a man…

I don’t care about your sex. But, saying everyone has a right to speak on the topic is a discounting of a deeply disturbing experience a raped, especially pregnant rape victim. That kind of statement is most likely to be made by a man.

O.k. everyone, new rule: Only raped pregnant women are allowed to talk about abortion on CAF. Put it in the TOS, ok?
Second new rule: Men are not allowed to express opinions on matters involving women. Some leeway may be afforded men who are non-white. Humans who were born as white males are simply out of luck. Your time has passed, and you need to submit yourselves to woke people.
That wraps it up for this evening. Thank you all for your cooperation. The meeting is adjourned.

 

[YourNameHere]

Rape is a crime of violence. Sometimes pregnancy is the result of the rape. Though I do not like abortion, I would support a female family member who had been raped if she chose to have an abortion. If she chose to have the child I would suggest that she give the child up for adoption. If for whatever reason she chose to keep the child that would be her decision. I would support her decision, but I would NEVER accept the child as family.

 

[KathleenT]

Never say never.

I have seen plenty of people insist they would never accept a child for various reasons and they usually melt over time.

Why don’t you just resolve to do what you can to help the victim? And try not to worry too much about how you will accept or reject a child who hasn’t even been conceived yet and may never be?

And please keep in mind, you may very well already know children of rape or even have some in your family. It isn’t like you can tell how a child is conceived. So try not to be too vocal with your views, you might damage some relationships.

 

[KathleenT]

You don’t know us or anything about our lives.

I actually understand very well the desire to right a perceived wrong by turning that same wrong back on others. That way…there be dragons.

You lose credibility when you try to right the wrong of someone not having a voice or a platform to speak by insisting you must silence others. Don’t you see the problem with that? You clearly don’t thinking silencing people is wrong…so long as you are doing the silencing.

It is also worth pointing out no one here told anyone they couldn’t speak…except you. So the “wrong” you are trying to correct never occurred.

 

[thequeen]

My mother was raped when she was nineteen years old that baby conceived was me. She had me was a single mother until I was eight years old she then married a man who adopted me and gave me his last name which I carry proudly and they both loved me unconditionally they are both passed now both sides of my family accepted me.

 

[Crocus]

I would support her decision, but I would NEVER accept the child as family.

Not accepting the child, her child, is not supporting her at all. It resembles the poverty (of inconvenience) that Mother Teresa spoke of. The child in the womb is thought to be inconvenient, so rejected; the child living in the family is thought to be an inconvenience.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

What’s the point of not judging if you are going to act like that?

 

[Bluebright]

I am not talking about ectopic pregnancy specifically, neither was the poster. Pleases do not twist my words. Your piece is valid on it’s own without changing what I said. Also if you read what I said,
I said it was unsubstantiated and may be incorrect so their is no need to misquote words from my post as fact when I did not put them down as such. Your post would have stood on its own without attempting to make someone else less. I already said it was both
an opinion and possibly incorrect and that I was unable to back it up. Also I never specified what you surmised in anyway. Neither did the original question.

 

[PJH_74]

Though not notified why, it seems like my previous last post was removed which was meant to be a concession. Maybe it’s God’s opportunity to give me a better crack at it.

I’m one to concede where I took something too far. Some lived experience, observation of society’s general weaknesses, and a complex relationship with abortion drove my responses.

I have no issue with someone having a strong opinion on the two scenarios on discussion here. I also would like to see a child of a potentially deadly birth or of rape (which we need to define properly as much more than some creep hiding in the bushes) survive. I’ve met one such survivor not 10 days ago in a very emotional response to a seemingly innocent, but uniformed statement within the context of a conference on such things. The main issue here was this fact was hidden from her.

The two choices discussed here seem, to me, to be asking a woman to make the extraordinary choices of either dying or dealing with the unspeakable damage rape has on the soul of a person. In this case having the direct result of such an act tourture, occupy, and violate the arguably most personal parts of a woman’s body.

I believe these situations to be ones where other people’s opinions, even the most morally correct ones, need to be held silent and the choice supported; especially by those who could never be in that situation.

I say this because there is a sort of dysfunction here that obsesses with abortion being the definition of right to life. One would NEVER ask a soldier to give her or his life in a suicial act. We have all of these honors and worship of their deed, but the fact remains that person is dead and leaves a huge hole in the lives of those around them. I might make one personal observation that virtually all of these are men. I can see some arguing that, well it’s obviously because women have only been allowed to serve recently. However I’d counter, where’s the Medal of Honor for women giving birth in such situations discussed here?

I’ve also been asking people to reflect on when you beliefs, biases, and incongruence to other truths allow things equally as bad to abortion to occur. Abortion is not a moral anomaly.

 

[YourNameHere]

Today, I have offered the prayers of the Rosary for all who have participated in this thread.
God bless those who women who have had an abortion. May they find a way to health their lives.
God bless the families of those who have endured rape.
God bless those who struggle with the complexity of abortion.
With God’s blessings and grace we will overcome. Amen

 

[Tis_Bearself]

How can one love someone who was conceived through a violent action? I know that child is innocent. But that child is the result of a violent action.

Some mothers do love their rape babies. There are people at the March for Life who actually are mothers or were formerly babies from this situation, and will testify to that.

Other mothers put the baby up for adoption, so another family who has more distance on the situation is able to love and accept the child for the person it is.

The child did not ask to be conceived, did not have any control over how it was conceived, and doesn’t deserve to be ripped to pieces in the womb because its father committed a bad act.