S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Are you saying that the teaching of the apostles were not written down in the Holy Bible?
- Status
M
MariaG
Guest
I am not saying that the teachings of the Apostles were not written down in the Bible. The BIBLE itself tells us that not EVERYTHING that was taught was written down. Besides the scripture I already quoted, consider the following.
In Acts 20:35 Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in the gospels
2 Tim 2:2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
There is much more. 2Tim 2:2 most especially shows that the teachings of Christ he is referring to are not written. I hate to keep repeating myself, but the BIBLE tells us to hold fast to traditions whether oral or by letter (2Thess 2:15). The BIBLE tells us not everything was written down. I asked for Scripture telling us we no longer have to hold fast to the oral words the BIBLE tells us to hold onto. You have found not one piece of Scripture telling us it has all been written down now. That is because the Scripture saying that does not exist. The very argument of Man-Made Traditions thrown at Catholics is actually what Bible alone Christians are guilty of. The Bible tells us nowhere to ignore spoken word (contained in Sacred Tradition). Following the “Bible alone” is a man made tradition that can not be supported by the very Scripture you claim to follow.
If you choose to believe that spoken word referred to repeatedly in the Bible (and me) is not the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic church, where is it? His word will never pass away, so where is the spoken word if it is not Sacred Tradition?
I do not mean to sound harsh, but please, look to the Scripture you hold as God’s inspired word. I am not saying you need to follow His oral word, the Bible does. By saying what is written is enough, you are choosing to ignore the same Bible you say you base all your beliefs on. Truly,. look at the Scriptures.
God Bless
In Acts 20:35 Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in the gospels
2 Tim 2:2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
There is much more. 2Tim 2:2 most especially shows that the teachings of Christ he is referring to are not written. I hate to keep repeating myself, but the BIBLE tells us to hold fast to traditions whether oral or by letter (2Thess 2:15). The BIBLE tells us not everything was written down. I asked for Scripture telling us we no longer have to hold fast to the oral words the BIBLE tells us to hold onto. You have found not one piece of Scripture telling us it has all been written down now. That is because the Scripture saying that does not exist. The very argument of Man-Made Traditions thrown at Catholics is actually what Bible alone Christians are guilty of. The Bible tells us nowhere to ignore spoken word (contained in Sacred Tradition). Following the “Bible alone” is a man made tradition that can not be supported by the very Scripture you claim to follow.
If you choose to believe that spoken word referred to repeatedly in the Bible (and me) is not the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic church, where is it? His word will never pass away, so where is the spoken word if it is not Sacred Tradition?
I do not mean to sound harsh, but please, look to the Scripture you hold as God’s inspired word. I am not saying you need to follow His oral word, the Bible does. By saying what is written is enough, you are choosing to ignore the same Bible you say you base all your beliefs on. Truly,. look at the Scriptures.
God Bless
R
rod_of_iron
Guest
If this spoken word was not written down, how can you be so sure what was spoken? You could claim something was spoken by the apostles that wasn’t, but no one would be the wiser. The reason to write things down is so it can last through the generations. I am sure we have all been part of a group that formed a circle. The first person whispers something to the person next to him, and then that person passes on the message until it goes all around the circle and finally gets back to the original person. The message that he receives back does not even resemble the original message. Yet, you want us to believe that the original spoken word of the apostles survived without alteration as it was passed down through the generations? If part of the apostles’ teachings were not written down, who knows if the teachings you believe the apostles gave are the actual teachings of the apostles?
That may be the position of the Roman Catholic church and all its protestant children, but that position implies that God has changed and is really not an unchangeable God. If He is not unchangeable, how do you know He will keep any of His promises in the future?
To believe that the Bible is all that God gave us, is to say that God did not have much to say. God is alive and well. He desires to communicate with us, but He is waiting for us to listen for His still small voice.
M
MariaG
Guest
I believe God can keep the promises that are contained in the Scripture. 1 Tim 3:15 says the church is called “pliilar and foundation of truth”. This is not a game of operator, it is God’s church and He can choose to do anything He wants. Scripture says he chooses to have His church be a pillar and foundation of truth.
God has not Changed. Our knowledge of Him has expanded.
Public revelation ceased. Private revelation continues to this day. And the Catholic position is NOT Bible alone.
God has not Changed. Our knowledge of Him has expanded.
Public revelation ceased. Private revelation continues to this day. And the Catholic position is NOT Bible alone.
J
jimmy
Guest
Not all of them.Are you saying that the teaching of the apostles were not written down in the Holy Bible?
R
rod_of_iron
Guest
How can the Catholic church know what God wants if public revelation has ceased? Is the church just guessing? If God does not reveal His will to mankind anymore, we will not know what God wants. How can your knowledge of God expand if He no longer reveals His wisdom to mankind? Who knows if God is even alive anymore if He refuses to speak to us and reveal His will to us?
If God gave revelation in the past and He no longer does so, He has changed, plain and simple. You cannot quit doing something and be unchangeable. Once you quit, you have changed. If God has quit, we are in big trouble. It would mean that He has given up on us.
M
MariaG
Guest
God uses His Church to expand the understanding of that which has been already revealed. But there is no more Public Revelation. There has been, however, what the Church calls private revelation. This means a person says God spoke to me, Mary spoke to me etc. The Church looks into what was said. If it does not contradict Scripture and the teachings of the Church, it can be held as a “private” revelation. I am not bound to believe God, Mary, or anyone else said it, but the church says I may believe if I so choose. The visions at Fatima are a good example. The church says they do not contradict Scripture. The Pope believes them 100%. But I do not have to believe in them at all.
But you still have not answered the central question of the original post. Where are the oral teachings of the Church refered to in the Bible? I say they are contained in the Sacred Tradition of the Church. We know they will never pass away, so if they are not the Sacred Tradition, where are they?
God Bless
But you still have not answered the central question of the original post. Where are the oral teachings of the Church refered to in the Bible? I say they are contained in the Sacred Tradition of the Church. We know they will never pass away, so if they are not the Sacred Tradition, where are they?
God Bless
R
rod_of_iron
Guest
No more public revelation? Where is it stated in the Bible that public revelation has ceased? In 1 Corinthians 13:9-10, we read, **“For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” **Has that which is perfect come yet? Do we no longer understand in part? If that which is perfect has come, what came and when did it come? If it has not yet come, we are very much in need of prophecy and revelation and wisdom from God, right?
I have not found in the Bible where it claims that revelation and prophecy would end once the apostles died. Can you locate such a statement in the Bible?
R
rod_of_iron
Guest
You claim that these oral teachings of the church is the Sacred Tradition that the Catholic church holds dear. But without any further revelation from God to confirm what the Catholic church was teaching, how would the church know if its leaders were interpreting the scriptures correctly? The Bible can be interpreted in numerous ways, but not all these ways are correct. Without the confirmation from God through further revelation, the Catholic church could eventually teach things that are abominable to God. Just because the Catholic church has oral teachings it calls Sacred Tradition, this in no way guarantees that it is the same oral teachings taught by the apostles. I do not believe that Sacred Tradition is a continuation of what the apostles taught, but I am not aware at this time what the apostles may have taught orally. Can you show me what the apostles taught orally? Can you prove that they taught what is considered Sacred Tradition by the Catholic church? Where is the logical link?
M
MariaG
Guest
Rod,
It comes down to this. The Church says there is no further Public Revelation. How do I know the Church is right? The Scripture tells me the church will tell me the truth.
I have already quoted to you 1 Tim 3:15. In here the church is called the pillar and foundation of truth.
Other Scripture that tell me this:
Jn 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He wil teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
So Jesus said He would remind the Apostles through the Holy Spirit what He taught them. No “operator” games here.
Acts 15:28 says For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
In Acts, the Apostles speak with the voice of the Holy Spirit.
There is more Scripture, but these are a good representative. How do I know Sacred Tradition is true? The Bible tells me the Church teaches the truth. The logical link is the Bible. What was written tells us “wait, there’s more, Hold fast to all of it written and oral”. What was written tells us the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. And the Church tells us Sacred Tradition contains the oral words spoken of in the Bible. Therefore, (as someone coming from a Protestant Church) The Bible tells us the church not only teaches truth but is a pillar and foundation of truth. So if the church then tells me what Sacred Tradition is, I can trust it as truth because the Bible tells me I can. For me, coming the direction I did, The Bible is the logical connection.
But even if you choose to disagree, the Bible does talk about the oral words. Where are the oral words we are to hold fast to if the Catholic church is wrong?
God Bless
It comes down to this. The Church says there is no further Public Revelation. How do I know the Church is right? The Scripture tells me the church will tell me the truth.
I have already quoted to you 1 Tim 3:15. In here the church is called the pillar and foundation of truth.
Other Scripture that tell me this:
Jn 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He wil teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
So Jesus said He would remind the Apostles through the Holy Spirit what He taught them. No “operator” games here.
Acts 15:28 says For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
In Acts, the Apostles speak with the voice of the Holy Spirit.
There is more Scripture, but these are a good representative. How do I know Sacred Tradition is true? The Bible tells me the Church teaches the truth. The logical link is the Bible. What was written tells us “wait, there’s more, Hold fast to all of it written and oral”. What was written tells us the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. And the Church tells us Sacred Tradition contains the oral words spoken of in the Bible. Therefore, (as someone coming from a Protestant Church) The Bible tells us the church not only teaches truth but is a pillar and foundation of truth. So if the church then tells me what Sacred Tradition is, I can trust it as truth because the Bible tells me I can. For me, coming the direction I did, The Bible is the logical connection.
But even if you choose to disagree, the Bible does talk about the oral words. Where are the oral words we are to hold fast to if the Catholic church is wrong?
God Bless
M
MariaG
Guest
So far Spokenword is the only Christian to try and provide any Biblical evidence of where the spoken word is. Although that evidence provided speaks of God’s written word, it did not address the spoken word. And then I have a Morman friend wishing to argue whether or not there is continued revelation of God (book of Morman for one).
Is there any Fundamental Christian, a Bible believing Christian who can show me where in the Bible it tells us everything has now been written down.
2 Thess 2:15 tells us to hold fast to the traditions whether oral or by letter
Where is the oral word of God. Mk 13:31 tells us it will never pass away. So if the Catholic Church is wrong, Christians for 1000 - 1500 years are wrong and Sacred Tradition does not contain the oral word of God, where are God’s oral teachings or where in the Bible does it tell us it has all been written down? I do not ask this and repeat this to badger you. It is one of the reasons I stay in the Catholic Church. If I am wrong, I would like to know. But so far, no Fundamental, Bible believing Christian has been able to show me where God’s oral words are. They have to be somewhere. I will stay with the church that tells me where those words are. I will follow the Bible and Hold fast to the traditions that have be spoken and written. Look to the Scripture. Where are God’s oral words?
God Bless
Is there any Fundamental Christian, a Bible believing Christian who can show me where in the Bible it tells us everything has now been written down.
2 Thess 2:15 tells us to hold fast to the traditions whether oral or by letter
Where is the oral word of God. Mk 13:31 tells us it will never pass away. So if the Catholic Church is wrong, Christians for 1000 - 1500 years are wrong and Sacred Tradition does not contain the oral word of God, where are God’s oral teachings or where in the Bible does it tell us it has all been written down? I do not ask this and repeat this to badger you. It is one of the reasons I stay in the Catholic Church. If I am wrong, I would like to know. But so far, no Fundamental, Bible believing Christian has been able to show me where God’s oral words are. They have to be somewhere. I will stay with the church that tells me where those words are. I will follow the Bible and Hold fast to the traditions that have be spoken and written. Look to the Scripture. Where are God’s oral words?
God Bless
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Racer X:
One of the problems with many Bible-only believers is that they automatically equate any use of the phrase “word of God” in the Bible to “scripture”. This assumption is unfounded.
QUOTE]
Agreed. Scripture says that the “word of God” is to be listened to, heard, received, proclaimed, preached, taught, and spoken but never written or read. Seemingly impossible of ONLY the written word is the “word of God”.
***PS. Love your quote!!***
R
rod_of_iron
Guest
How does the church know that there will be no further public revelation unless that information was revealed to the church through public revelation? The Bible does not say that public revelation ceased after the apostles were dead. That would mean that the Catholic church must have received a public revelation from God at some time after the apostles died, which told the church that public revelation would cease. Since this information about public revelation is not found in the Bible, in which revelation outside the Bible is this information revealed?
And I have told you that the Bible never makes clear that this church spoken of in 1 Tim 3:15 is the Catholic church. You can claim that it is, but the Bible does not support that claim.
But both of these verses tell us that it is the Holy Spirit that will teach us all things, not the church. I have claimed that the Holy Spirit has taught me what I know, and the Catholics on this forum just poo-poo it away. Are you trying to prove to me that the Catholic church is indeed the Holy Spirit? If not, why would you use verses that clearly speak of the Holy Spirit teaching us all truth, in order for you to prove that the Catholic church will teach us all truth?
Not according to the verses you quoted above. Now, does the Holy Spirit teach you all truth or does the Catholic church? If the two are not the same thing, then you must pick one or the other. Will you pick the Holy Spirit or the Catholic church to teach you all truth?
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
rod of iron:
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
I believe God spoke to Moses up on mt sinai. That spoken Word Of God was written on the tablets of the ten commandment. When Moses came down and spoke to his people he passed on the oral word of God by reading the tablets to his people.
P/S I wish Moses had a tape recorder when God spoke to him,We then probably would not be having this discussion.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
Im trying,here another verse. Hebrews 1 vs 1 &2 . God after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in portions and many ways,In these last days He has spoken to us in his Son Jesus Christ,whom He appointed heir of all things,through whom also He made the world. THE ANSWER IS GODS SPOKEN WORD IS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.
1
1962Missal
Guest
Good.Im trying,here another verse. Hebrews 1 vs 1 &2 . God after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in portions and many ways,In these last days He has spoken to us in his Son Jesus Christ,whom He appointed heir of all things,through whom also He made the world. THE ANSWER IS GODS SPOKEN WORD IS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.
Now:
Luke 10:16
“He who hears you hears me”
I Thess 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.
**2 Tim. 2:1-2 **
“You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also”
Note especially that, in the last passage, there are four generations in succession receiving and handing on the spoken Word. Paul’s (the Apostles), Timothy’s, the men who Timothy is to select and teach, and, then, those, who those men are to teach.
Justin
R
rod_of_iron
Guest
The church that existed at the time. As far as I know, Paul has never been described as a prophet. An apostle, yes, but never a prophet. Therefore, Paul would not have any foreknowledge of what the church he planted would turn out to be. You did not ask me to identify where that church is today. You asked me what church was Paul referring to when he wrote this epistle to Timothy. Since Paul did not have any foreknowledge of what that church would eventually become, he could not be referring absolutely to the Catholic church. Is that specific enough for you? If you were asking something else, I would ask you to be more specific with your questions.
(continued …)
R
rod_of_iron
Guest
Where do you get the idea that the Holy Spirit does not teach all truth to each person that searches for it? Maria quoted a verse that does not agree with your statement. She quoted John 14:26, which states, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
This verse clearly refutes your statement. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to teach us all things and to bring all these things to our memories. Here is another verse that tells us further what the Holy Spirit does.
John 16:13 states, **“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
**The Holy Spirit is among us to lead us into all truth. You must depend upon the Holy Spirit.
But you question all the conflicting and contradictory ideas. Do you believe that all these people are actually listening to the Holy Spirit? Do you believe that just because someone claims to be in tune with the Holy Spirit, that he or she always is? If all these ideas conflict and contradict, then it is painfully obvious that only one of these ideas are really of the Holy Spirit and the rest that conflict and contradict that idea are not.
You say that God is not revealing all truth to every individual, and I would have to agree. God can only reveal the truth to each individual who will listen for that still small voice of God’s Holy Spirit as it whispers the truth to them. You need to know what the voice of the Holy Spirit sounds like and how to hear it.
I do not depend on feeling or emotion to guide me to the what I believe, as has been said about Mormons in general. I depend on the enlightenment of my mind that only the Holy Spirit can accomplish. I can read over a passage of scripture a hundred times and not understand it. Then, the next time I read that passage, if the Holy Spirit opens my eyes and my mind, I will understand that passage of scripture. And once the Holy Spirit has opened my mind to the truth of any particular thing, nothing can be said to me to make me reject that which the Holy Spirit has revealed to me. Every time the Holy Spirit reveals a truth to me, it is an “aha!” moment. I see the truth, so much so that I want to yell “Eureka!” That is the Holy Spirit at work.
M
mrS4ntA
Guest
rod of iron:
uh huh… good. but what we call the Catholic Church is not some random Church founded later on… it’s the continuation of that Church handed down by Apostolic Succession since Peter
- Status