Where is the spoken word?

[rod_of_iron]

mrS4ntA:

uh huh… good. but what we call the Catholic Church is not some random Church founded later on… it’s the continuation of that Church handed down by Apostolic Succession since Peter

What you have just said has been said to me many times on this forum, but no one has yet proven that statement true. No one has shown me where Peter named his successor. Prove that this Apostolic Succession did happen. Show me a document written by someone who witnessed this handing down of apostolic power from Peter to his successor.

 

[mrS4ntA]

rod of iron:

What you have just said has been said to me many times on this forum, but no one has yet proven that statement true. No one has shown me where Peter named his successor. Prove that this Apostolic Succession did happen. Show me a document written by someone who witnessed this handing down of apostolic power from Peter to his successor.

see this:
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp

 

[SPOKENWORD]

1962Missal:

Good.

Now:

Luke 10:16
“He who hears you hears me”

I Thess 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

**2 Tim. 2:1-2 **
“You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also”

Note especially that, in the last passage, there are four generations in succession receiving and handing on the spoken Word. Paul’s (the Apostles), Timothy’s, the men who Timothy is to select and teach, and, then, those, who those men are to teach.

Justin

Justin, I agree with the quotes. I also know that God has commisioned me to go and spread the Good News. Isnt that all our calling? Not just the apostles. I praise God for them because they spread the Good News.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

rod of iron:

Where do you get the idea that the Holy Spirit does not teach all truth to each person that searches for it? Maria quoted a verse that does not agree with your statement. She quoted John 14:26, which states, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

This verse clearly refutes your statement. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to teach us all things and to bring all these things to our memories. Here is another verse that tells us further what the Holy Spirit does.

John 16:13 states, **“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”

**The Holy Spirit is among us to lead us into all truth. You must depend upon the Holy Spirit.

But you question all the conflicting and contradictory ideas. Do you believe that all these people are actually listening to the Holy Spirit? Do you believe that just because someone claims to be in tune with the Holy Spirit, that he or she always is? If all these ideas conflict and contradict, then it is painfully obvious that only one of these ideas are really of the Holy Spirit and the rest that conflict and contradict that idea are not.

You say that God is not revealing all truth to every individual, and I would have to agree. God can only reveal the truth to each individual who will listen for that still small voice of God’s Holy Spirit as it whispers the truth to them. You need to know what the voice of the Holy Spirit sounds like and how to hear it.

I do not depend on feeling or emotion to guide me to the what I believe, as has been said about Mormons in general. I depend on the enlightenment of my mind that only the Holy Spirit can accomplish. I can read over a passage of scripture a hundred times and not understand it. Then, the next time I read that passage, if the Holy Spirit opens my eyes and my mind, I will understand that passage of scripture. And once the Holy Spirit has opened my mind to the truth of any particular thing, nothing can be said to me to make me reject that which the Holy Spirit has revealed to me. Every time the Holy Spirit reveals a truth to me, it is an “aha!” moment. I see the truth, so much so that I want to yell “Eureka!” That is the Holy Spirit at work.

Rod of Iron, How true. Gods Spirit is TRUTH.

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

Justin, I agree with the quotes. I also know that God has commissioned me to go and spread the Good News. Isn’t that all our calling? Not just the apostles. I praise God for them because they spread the Good News.

Of course we are all called to spread the Gospel. That doesn’t mean that we are all called to a special ministry of teaching the revealed Truth. What I was trying to show was the special manner in which the Word of God was spread, not just in Scripture, but by being received and handed on by those who were chosen, in line from the Apostles, to teach it.

Justin

 

[SPOKENWORD]

1962Missal:

Of course we are all called to spread the Gospel. That doesn’t mean that we are all called to a special ministry of teaching the revealed Truth. What I was trying to show was the special manner in which the Word of God was spread, not just in Scripture, but by being received and handed on by those who were chosen, in line from the Apostles, to teach it.

Justin

Yes, I understand, Thats why the apostles oral word of God was written in what we call scripture today.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

rod of iron:

The church that existed at the time. As far as I know, Paul has never been described as a prophet. An apostle, yes, but never a prophet. Therefore, Paul would not have any foreknowledge of what the church he planted would turn out to be. You did not ask me to identify where that church is today. You asked me what church was Paul referring to when he wrote this epistle to Timothy. Since Paul did not have any foreknowledge of what that church would eventually become, he could not be referring absolutely to the Catholic church. Is that specific enough for you? If you were asking something else, I would ask you to be more specific with your questions.

(continued …)

***Sorry I was not more specific, although I gleen from your answer that you knew exactly what I was referring to. ***

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***Where, do you believe, “the church” of 1 Tim 3:15 exists today? Please be specific. Thanks! ***

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

Yes, I understand, Thats why the apostles oral word of God was written in what we call scripture today.

But that isn’t what the Bible says happened. It says that the oral Word spoken by the Apostles was received as the Word of God and was to be handed on by teaching to those who were trustworthy to teach others. Generation to generation. It does not say that the entirety of that Word would pass into scripture or that what was received orally would no longer need to be passed on orally. Specific instructions were left for the oral transmission of the Word. See 2 Timothy 2:1-2, above.

Justin

 

[SPOKENWORD]

1962Missal:

But that isn’t what the Bible says happened. It says that the oral Word spoken by the Apostles was received as the Word of God and was to be handed on by teaching to those who were trustworthy to teach others. Generation to generation. It does not say that the entirety of that Word would pass into scripture or that what was received orally would no longer need to be passed on orally. Specific instructions were left for the oral transmission of the Word. See 2 Timothy 2:1-2, above.

Justin

Your right,the apostles did not own bibles,their bibles were the spoken Word of Jesus Christ. Although they did have Gods Word from the old Testament[torah] which Christ quoted from.

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

Your right,the apostles did not own bibles,their bibles were the spoken Word of Jesus Christ. Although they did have Gods Word from the old Testament[torah] which Christ quoted from.

Yes. Both the written Word (Sacred Scripture) and the orally transmitted Word (Apostolic Tradition) were to work together. There is nothing to indicate that that was to change with the compilation and promulgation of the New Testament. (A process, it is to be remembered, that took four centuries.)

As the Church says:

Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity, so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth, they may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known.

Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church. Holding fast to this deposit the entire holy people united with their shepherds remain always steadfast in the teaching of the Apostles, in the common life, in the breaking of the bread and in prayers, so that holding to, practicing and professing the heritage of the faith, it becomes on the part of the bishops and faithful a single common effort.

From the DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION

Justin

 

[SPOKENWORD]

1962Missal:

Yes. Both the written Word (Sacred Scripture) and the orally transmitted Word (Apostolic Tradition) were to work together. There is nothing to indicate that that was to change with the compilation and promulgation of the New Testament. (A process, it is to be remembered, that took four centuries.)

As the Church says:

From the DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION

Justin

What were the sacred traditions the apostles were refering to? Can you point them out to me. I know of 2. Baptism, Breaking of the bread.

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

What were the sacred traditions the apostles were refering to? Can you point them out to me. I know of 2. Baptism, Breaking of the bread.

I didn’t mean just actions to be participated in, like the Sacraments, but also truths to be learned. Examples:

These ideas are testified to by the Scriptures but are not explicitly taught. They come from Apostolic oral teaching (tradition).

Jesus is consubtantial (one in nature/essence/being) with the Father in His divinity. He is not only the Son of God, but truly God the Son.

Monogamous marriage between Christians.

The Sanctity of Human Life. “Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born.” (Didiche, ca. 70 A.D.)

Justin

 

[SPOKENWORD]

1962Missal:

I didn’t mean just actions to be participated in, like the Sacraments, but also truths to be learned. Examples:

These ideas are testified to by the Scriptures but are not explicitly taught. They come from Apostolic oral teaching (tradition).

Jesus is consubtantial (one in nature/essence/being) with the Father in His divinity. He is not only the Son of God, but truly God the Son.

Monogamous marriage between Christians.

The Sanctity of Human Life. “Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born.” (Didiche, ca. 70 A.D.)

Justin

Good points back and forth.

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

Good points back and forth.

And the teachings are either true or they are not. In many instances with such teachings, the opposing belief can be well attested to by Scripture. It is by Apostolic Tradition that the knowledge of which answer is correct was transmitted to the young Church.

For example, the divinity of Jesus Christ can be very convincingly called into question and even denied using Scripture alone. Over half the early Church denied His divinity led by the arch-heretic Arius. The Christians finally settled on the term homoousios, consubstantial, to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. When the Arians rejected the term as unbiblical, the response of the Christians was that Christ’s true divinity was part of that Tradition which had been handed on by the Apostles. That part of the Apostolic Tradition became codified in the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

This is a salvation issue. The first commandment either prohibits or commands the worship of Jesus depending on whether he is truly YHWH incarnate. It is not something which can be left as mere opinion. The answer must be known with the infallible certainty of faith. That is where Sacred Tradition, the orally transmitted Word of God, comes in.

Justin

 

[RNRobert]

Agreed. Scripture says that the “word of God” is to be listened to, heard, received, proclaimed, preached, taught, and spoken but never written or read. Seemingly impossible of ONLY the written word is the “word of God”.

---

***PS. Love your quote!! ***

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Not to mention the fact that until the printing press, the sheer expense of making a Bible kept it out of reach of the average Christian, many of whom were illiterate, so the only way for most Christians to hear the Word of God was at church.

 

[rod_of_iron]

1962Missal:

Of course we are all called to spread the Gospel. That doesn’t mean that we are all called to a special ministry of teaching the revealed Truth. What I was trying to show was the special manner in which the Word of God was spread, not just in Scripture, but by being received and handed on by those who were chosen, in line from the Apostles, to teach it.

Who chose these men in this line of Apostles?

 

[1962Missal]

rod of iron:

Who chose these men in this line of Apostles?

“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry”

Pope Clement I, Letter to the Corinthians, ca. A.D. 80.

The Apostles started it, their successors continued it.

Justin

 

[Curious]

Hold fast to what I have spoken and written to you.
My word will never pass away.
The Catholic Church holds that oral testimony of God is Sacred Tradition. Respectfully, where is the Oral Word of God if it is not Sacred Tradition

MariaG,

I have not yet been able to find a passage to refute you. I have, recently, been forced to re-examine some things, including the fact that when Paul wrote his epistles, he often wrote that he was reminding them and correcting them concerning things HE ALREADY TOLD THEM, which obviously weren’t written down previously. This isn’t a great answer. I’ll see if I can find something if it’s even in there…right now I’m getting a little sleepy.

 

[rod_of_iron]

***Sorry I was not more specific, although I gleen from your answer that you knew exactly what I was referring to. ***

***Where, do you believe, "the church" of 1 Tim 3:15 exists today?  Please be specific.  Thanks!*** :)

It is the church that was restored by Jesus through Joseph Smith in 1830, and then reorganized in 1860, and now is found in the independent restoration branches that exist and will organize together when Jesus raises up another prophet. The true church must have apostles and prophets in it. This is the structure mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 – "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"

Why are these priesthood offices needed? We are told in the next verses: Ephesians 4:12-15 – "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"

If the Roman Catholic church does not have these priesthood offices within its structure, how can the saints be perfected? How can the work of the ministry go forth? How can the body of Christ be edified? If these priesthood offices are not in place in a church, the people of that church risk being tossed to and fro and being carried by any wind of doctrine. A church without these offices risk being fooled by the sleight and craftiness of men.

How can the Catholic church pass on the spoken word without these priesthood offices in place to ensure that the truth will be taught and passed along from generation to generation?

 

[rod_of_iron]

1962Missal:

Pope Clement I, Letter to the Corinthians, ca. A.D. 80.

The Apostles started it, their successors continued it.

Justin

Did Clement witness Peter passing on the keys to his successor? Can Clement testify firsthand that he saw Peter name his successor and ordain him as such?