Which Doctrines Do All Protestants Agree Upon?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Teflon93
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The idea that Baptists are not Protestant comes from a myth that the Baptist Church was itself the visible Church established by Christ. This view holds that one can draw a never ending line of succession from either independently appearing churches or following a chain of churches each succeeding the other. The latter view is called Landmarkism (which you may have heard of).
Um, that’s not completely right. Baptists are “Protestants” in the sense that they claim independence from both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. They are not Protestants in the historic sense, because they did not spring out of the Protestant Reformation of the 1500s. The Church of England is not a Protestant church. The Anabaptist movement, from which all Baptists church take root, occurred after the Protestant Reformation. Protestants actually persecuted Anabaptists.
 
Um, that’s not completely right. Baptists are “Protestants” in the sense that they claim independence from both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. They are not Protestants in the historic sense, because they did not spring out of the Protestant Reformation of the 1500s. The Church of England is not a Protestant church. The Anabaptist movement, from which all Baptists church take root, occurred after the Protestant Reformation. Protestants actually persecuted Anabaptists.
The C of E was a protestant church; even if it sprang into existence for no theological reason, plenty of theologically trained men under the Tudors were sympathetic with trends on the continent weighed in to form it. Easily by mid-century, England was a protestant nation in cultural terms, for example looking to Melancthon and Sturm for examples of the school and the school master, a reformed idea of Christian Humanism begun in Catholic Italy.
 
The C of E was a protestant church; even if it sprang into existence for no theological reason, plenty of theologically trained men under the Tudors were sympathetic with trends on the continent weighed in to form it. Easily by mid-century, England was a protestant nation in cultural terms, for example looking to Melancthon and Sturm for examples of the school and the school master, a reformed idea of Christian Humanism begun in Catholic Italy.
Another note—when a storm decimated the Spanish Armada on the way to invade Elizabethan England, it was referred to as “The Protestant Wind”.

Why would it be referred to as such if contemporaries didn’t believe Anglicans to be Protestants?
 
Um, that’s not completely right. Baptists are “Protestants” in the sense that they claim independence from both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. They are not Protestants in the historic sense, because they did not spring out of the Protestant Reformation of the 1500s.
Not directly, since they arose first in the 17th century. But that would reduce the number of real “Protestant” groups to Lutherans, Reformed, perhaps Anabaptists (more on that in a minute), and, yes, Anglicans. This is a possible way to use the term, but on the whole I think it’s misleading and less useful than the broader approach which defines all churches deriving in any way from the Reformation as Protestant.
The Church of England is not a Protestant church.
Well, that would have surprised pretty much any Anglican until the 19th century. And given that each monarch swears to maintain the Protestant religion as established in England, I think one can say that it’s still not really accurate. Certainly many Anglicans reject most if not all Protestant theology and have valiantly tried to redefine Anglicanism so as to reject Protestantism, but they have never been more than a powerful minority, and their treatment of history has often been highly selective. Historically speaking, Anglicans are definitely Protestants, and most Anglicans have theological views (and all Anglicans have liturgical practices) deriving at least in part from the Reformation.
The Anabaptist movement, from which all Baptists church take root, occurred after the Protestant Reformation.
First of all, Baptists derive primarily from the English Separatist movement, which was the radical wing of Puritanism. In the second place, the Anabaptist movement started (by most accounts) in 1523, which is six years after the date usually given as the start of the Reformation! The Baptist movement, however, did start nearly a century after the Reformation.
Protestants actually persecuted Anabaptists.
That’s not a particularly good basis for a definition of who is a “Protestant.” Why can’t Protestants persecute each other if they feel inclined?

Edwin
 
a reformed idea of Christian Humanism begun in Catholic Italy.
Christian humanism did begin in Italy. I am not following you when you say a ‘reformed idea’ of Christian humanism. Can you step me through that please? It sounds interesting. Thank you.
 
40.png
Palladio:
The C of E was a protestant church; even if it sprang into existence for no theological reason, plenty of theologically trained men under the Tudors were sympathetic with trends on the continent weighed in to form it.
I believe Henry Tudor tried to contact Luther but Luther snubbed him. Luther was a busy man. 😃
 
I believe Henry Tudor tried to contact Luther but Luther snubbed him. Luther was a busy man. 😃
Actually Henry VIII had written anti-Lutheran tracts prior to his break with Rome. As a result he was named Defender of the Faith by the Pope. The British monarchy uses this title even today.
 
Actually Henry VIII had written anti-Lutheran tracts prior to his break with Rome. As a result he was named Defender of the Faith by the Pope. The British monarchy uses this title even today.
The Pope had bestowed on him the title of “Defender of the Faith” It is amazing to see how Satan twisted his lust to bring about the evil he did.
 
He claimed Protestants didnt attack Catholics, Then I gave him about 30 examples so he claimed they were just “splinter groups” now he is trying to change the subjectteflons alleged deficinet researc skills. I am sure references to the crusades and the inquisition will not be far behind.
And the answer to my question was?
 
O.K. In response to:
“Quote:
Originally Posted by estesbob
The one doctrine that unifies them all is the doctrine that the Catholic Church is the spawn of satan.”

I replied:
“That was not worth saying. Christians can disagree without having to think the other is satanic. Such false witness, even if joking, is uncalled for.”

So, you don’t understand why I take offense to that statement? Please tell me which part of my reply do you disagree with. And then tell me how saying that brings my communion with the bishop of Rome into question?

You say “You don’t seem like you are defending your Protestant brethren from fellow Catholics but a catholic who is not in communion with the bishop of Rome.”
Why because I saw the comment as uncharitable, and false? Maybe you should be a little more careful about questioning whether someone is Catholic or not. Do you think Jesus would approve of what the poster said, regardless of whether the poster was joking or not? If not, then any Catholic should take offense to the comment and not have their faith questioned as a result. Really, shouldn’t true Catholics be more careful with their words, and take offense at uncharitable generalizations such as that?

Michael
No, I don’t. It was apparent to me (and the Protestant that responded) that it was not meant as a serious statement. He didn’t call any Protestants Satanic. Just said that they were all unified in calling Catholics satanic. And as was jokingly responded to by a baptist, she said, “no, not even unified on that front.” Since obviously not all believe Catholics are the spawn of Satan.

I was not questioning your faith. I was questioning your denomination. Many people who are not in communion with Rome, still call themselves Catholic.

And you completely misunderstood and took offense when none was intended, as you did so now at my post. As for whether or not Jesus would have approved of it or not, I happen to think our Lord has a sense of humor, and would see the irony of the statement. Sad irony, but irony nonetheless.

Your faith was not being questioned. Your denomination was.

A question that you still have not answered.

But apparently I’ll just have to assume you are a Catholic who is in communion with Rome who is very serious and very touchy and who apparently assumes the worst out of every post.

So to sum it up. Yes, I think you were wrong. No, I did not Question your faith, yes I think Jesus would have seen the ironic humor in the comment and in the response of the non-Catholics. And IF it had been an unfair generalization, yes every Christian, Catholic or otherwise should take offense. But it wasn’t an unfair generalization, but an attempt at humor.

👋
 
Yes, if one is not a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, then they are not Catholic. Sure am glad to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church, by the grace of God.

What is troubling to me is those who call themselves Catholic and go through the motion of going to Sunday Mass, and then are unreasonably careless with their words and actions toward others. They might even get all self-righteous and question whether others are Catholic because they don’t like something the other person said. The outside is all shine, and the inside not so shiny. Like a hypocrite.

Michael
And some seemly choose to believe the worst of others.
 
You wrote that in reference to:
"Originally Posted by Mt 28 19_20
Yes, if one is not a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, then they are not Catholic. Sure am glad to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church, by the grace of God.

What is troubling to me is those who call themselves Catholic and go through the motion of going to Sunday Mass, and then are unreasonably careless with their words and actions toward others. **They might even get all self-righteous **and question whether others are Catholic because they don’t like something the other person said. The outside is all shine, and the inside not so shiny. Like a hypocrite."

Get this straight, calling you on your generalization about Protestants IN NO WAY questions whether you are Catholic or not.
Dear Michael,

Again, IF it had been a generalization, you would have been justified in your reaction and in your defense of our separated brethren. But everyone but you saw that it was not a generalization, but a lame, (sorry Bob) attempt at humor. And was even responded as such by a Protestant.
 
would all agree that the major branches

Lutheran
Anglican
Episcopalian
Pentescostal
Methodist
Baptist
Presbyterian

agree on

Jesus saves
Salvation is through Faith alone
In Christ alone
Canon of Scripture
Trinity
Sunday is Christian Sabbath
All humans require a savior
Crucifixion
Virgin Birth
The bodily resurrection of Jesus
The imminent return of Jesus Christ

?
 
would all agree that the major branches

Lutheran
Anglican
Episcopalian
Pentescostal
Methodist
Baptist
Presbyterian

agree on

Jesus saves
Salvation is through Faith alone
In Christ alone
Canon of Scripture
Trinity
Sunday is Christian Sabbath
All humans require a savior
Crucifixion
Virgin Birth
The bodily resurrection of Jesus
The imminent return of Jesus Christ

?
I’d say that:

Jesus Saves
In Christ Alone
Trinity*
All humans require a savior
Crucifixion
Sunday worship*
Virgin Birth
Bodily resurrection of Jesus
Imminent return

Are all givens.

The only ones I would see being up in the air would be

Faith Alone: not that I think they wouldn’t all say it that way but I think that how it is interpreted would differ between some of the denominations

Also I know there is at least one Baptist sect that doesn’t believe in Sunday worship and some of the more Jewish like pentecostal groups follow the Jewish calendar.

Also at least one Pentecostals sect has unorthodox views on the Trinity.

However, I think all of the groups I mentioned are relatively small. Do we still count them?
 
I’d say that:

Jesus Saves
In Christ Alone
Trinity*
All humans require a savior
Crucifixion
Sunday worship*
Virgin Birth
Bodily resurrection of Jesus
Imminent return

Are all givens.

The only ones I would see being up in the air would be

Faith Alone: not that I think they wouldn’t all say it that way but I think that how it is interpreted would differ between some of the denominations

Also I know there is at least one Baptist sect that doesn’t believe in Sunday worship and some of the more Jewish like pentecostal groups follow the Jewish calendar.

Also at least one Pentecostals sect has unorthodox views on the Trinity.

However, I think all of the groups I mentioned are relatively small. Do we still count them?
Good question.

For there is the Oneness Pentecostals who don’t believe in the Trinity.

:hmmm: Since belief in the Trinity would be required in my point of view to even be called Protestant, I don’t think we should get rid of the Trinity, but it is noted that some who can no longer be considered Protestant much less Christian, claim to be such and use part of the name “pentecostal”

As for the Baptists, apparently at least one (some?) don’t want to be considered Protestants so 🤷
 
Christian humanism did begin in Italy. I am not following you when you say a ‘reformed idea’ of Christian humanism. Can you step me through that please? It sounds interesting. Thank you.
Humanism is the nineteenth century term (Renan’s, I think) retrojected upon the fourteenth century and after for the efforts of men, more or less beginning with Petrarca, who set the highest standards and, in Latin especially (to his chagrin, he never got Greek), example for the recovery, dissemination, and application of classical Greece and Rome. Umanisti was what these men were calling themselves, in Italy, by the fifteenth century, perhaps a little earlier. They were Catholic to a man and, in what we now call the classics, this tradition in Italy really never ends; in some regards, it has a stronger ending in Italy than elsewhere: Vico’s thought, which people now approach as if a stand-alone system, owes everything to Greece and Rome.

In the sixteenth century, humanism had developed powerfully enough in Italy to find itself deeply and permantly a part of Europe and England.

Henry VII, the century before, and his son you know who patronize humanists, and everything worth reading in the English renaissance from More to Milton springs from humanism.

Christian humanism is even more recent than humanism: it recognizes that, nearly without exception, the study of Greece and Rome was carried out by Christians, reformed or otherwise, also that a lot of the creative arts had their origin in the Bible, Greece, and Rome combined: the obvious examples you find in Rome, but the poetry of Spenser and Sidney and Donne, and Wren’s chapels and libraries are among the finest example of Christian humanism before Milton.

In England, by 1550, probably earlier, Christian humanists (more or less strictly protestant, but most, nominally, Anglican), had to cast about for examples of the new model school: Christian (but how? religious opinion differed even if there was one Anglican church) and humanist at the same time and both by necessity: the Bible, Greece, and Rome: this is what culture was.

So, very concretely put, some bright English minds set about looking for the proper method of instruction, the right books to read, true criticism, and found in present-day Germany in the two writers (and others) I mentioned. What Melancthon clearly did others had in Italy and would in Europe: apply classical Roman ideas of education, the canons of Quintilian, his and Cicero’s ideals of oratory, Aristotle’s and Horace’s literary theory…

Why Germany? Protestantism and ‘modernism’ combined worked. The Jesuit model–which would be ascendant for two hundred years and more–was not available for obvious reasons, although its scholarship was certainly known throughout England–as was the best scholarship no matter the religion or country of origin.

If Christendom is splintered and splintering today, in the sixteenth century and after it at least shared the deepest Biblical and classical culture, which bourgeoned (if no doubt slowed at times) despite the religious clashes and which inspired all the arts in ways never bettered.

P. S. Sorry if this is off topic. It’s my hobbyhorse I’m riding.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top