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StPeterRules
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Believe it or not, no.
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carol_marie
Guest
And even if the baby wasn’t dead, if she had actually aborted a live baby I wouldn’t hate her. I would feel very sorry for her because someday she might come to realize what she’s done - that she took the life of her own baby - paid to have it murdered and thrown in the garbage and that realization, when it comes, would have to be horrible. I would pray for her to repent and ask for God’s forgiveness. And because the God we serve is merciful beyond what we can imagine, I know he would forgive her. But I would still feel sorry for her because she would have to live with the knowledge that she killed her precious innocent child.
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AlanFromWichita
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carol marie:
For your scenario where the baby was alive and she had paid to have it murdered, I assume you are only referring to a case in which she actually knew it was alive. If she honestly thought it was dead and took due diligence to confirm it, only to find out later it was alive, then I can’t see how she sinned and even though she may grieve I don’t see that she has does anything to require forgiveness.
My wife had a baby die all on its own and had to have a D&C (in a Catholic hospital btw) so I’m also personally interested in this example.
Alan
I’m not sure you answered the other posters’ question exactly, but may I correctly infer that you would not, in fact, consider she had done wrong if the baby had been dead?
For your scenario where the baby was alive and she had paid to have it murdered, I assume you are only referring to a case in which she actually knew it was alive. If she honestly thought it was dead and took due diligence to confirm it, only to find out later it was alive, then I can’t see how she sinned and even though she may grieve I don’t see that she has does anything to require forgiveness.
My wife had a baby die all on its own and had to have a D&C (in a Catholic hospital btw) so I’m also personally interested in this example.
Alan
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carol_marie
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Alan,
I was only responding to the poster’s last line where he suggested we would all hate her, even though the baby had already died. I wanted to make the point that I wouldn’t even hate her if the circumstances were reversed and she did abort her baby. As a Christian I couldn’t find it in my heart to hate anyone.
I didn’t respond to the part where he said the baby had died and she needed to have a D&C - suggesting that was somehow similar as an abortion. That’s just so ridiculous it didn’t seem to merit any response.
I’m sorry you and your wife lost a baby due to miscarriage. I’ve been pregnant 11 times in 13 years and have only been able to carry 4 babies to term. After each of my 7 miscarriages I also had to have a D&C. To suggest that’s the same as having an abortion - well you & I both know nothing could be farther from the truth.
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carol_marie
Guest
carol marie:
The post I was responding to had to do with someone saying his cousin had a D&C after her baby had died - and isn’t that the same as an abortion???
That’s just so stupid and of course not. The D&C is a medical procedure that’s sometimes necessary after a baby has died. She wouldn’t be intentionally killing her baby.
He went on to ask if we would hate her now? (of course not - she did nothing wrong, poor thing, except have a baby that naturally died - how stupid to even suggest that!) Then I went on to say that I wouldn’t even hate someone that INTENTIONALLY had an abortion. Hate? No. Feel sorry for? Yes. Because I can’t imagine how awful it will be on the day that she realizes what she’s done- taken the life of her child.
Hope that makes sense. I shouldn’t post before I’ve had my coffee!
Let me clarify what I meant to say… I’m thinking this didn’t come out right.
The post I was responding to had to do with someone saying his cousin had a D&C after her baby had died - and isn’t that the same as an abortion???
That’s just so stupid and of course not. The D&C is a medical procedure that’s sometimes necessary after a baby has died. She wouldn’t be intentionally killing her baby.
He went on to ask if we would hate her now? (of course not - she did nothing wrong, poor thing, except have a baby that naturally died - how stupid to even suggest that!) Then I went on to say that I wouldn’t even hate someone that INTENTIONALLY had an abortion. Hate? No. Feel sorry for? Yes. Because I can’t imagine how awful it will be on the day that she realizes what she’s done- taken the life of her child.
Hope that makes sense. I shouldn’t post before I’ve had my coffee!
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Panis_Angelicas
Guest
We are not referring to “spontaneous abortion” (miscarriage) at all, but “induced abortion,” (the medical procedure whereby a living baby is exterminated,)
Every woman knows the difference between the two, and we assume that so do men!
No one holds a woman responsible for a spontaneous abortion. An induced abortion, however, is the woman’s choice. One day, she does have to face the choice she made, and will likely regret it deeply.
Abortion is a more grave sin than fornication, since it destroys a unique creature, made in God’s image and likeness…
But…
Some pose the point, and I do not disagree, that artificial contraception is an even more grave evil than abortion, because it frustrates the Divine Plan and prevents God’s creation from even taking place! At least, in abortion, this little soul may be returned to his Creator…but with artificial contraception, the soul never even gets to be created…Hmmm…well, something to ponder about anyway…
Every woman knows the difference between the two, and we assume that so do men!
No one holds a woman responsible for a spontaneous abortion. An induced abortion, however, is the woman’s choice. One day, she does have to face the choice she made, and will likely regret it deeply.
Abortion is a more grave sin than fornication, since it destroys a unique creature, made in God’s image and likeness…
But…
Some pose the point, and I do not disagree, that artificial contraception is an even more grave evil than abortion, because it frustrates the Divine Plan and prevents God’s creation from even taking place! At least, in abortion, this little soul may be returned to his Creator…but with artificial contraception, the soul never even gets to be created…Hmmm…well, something to ponder about anyway…
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Exporter
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Which is worse: to shoot a person in the head with 3 bullets or 6 bullets?
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vegpotter
Guest
No one is dying when two unmarried people have sex, so abortion is far worse. They aren’t even in the same ballpark.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
carol marie:
A lot of times we seem to have the “hate the sinner” mentality. You and I are apparently on the same page here. I cannot see fit to hate anybody whether they commit a sin that bothers me or not.
Not to mention that even a miscarriage can trigger a “post partum” psychotic episode.
Alan
That makes sense. I was hoping that was what you were saying.
A lot of times we seem to have the “hate the sinner” mentality. You and I are apparently on the same page here. I cannot see fit to hate anybody whether they commit a sin that bothers me or not.
You and I know it is ridiculous, but I do not underestimate the ability of many people to think things I believe are ridiculous.
Wow. We lost two and got to keep six. I can hardly imagine how disappointed you must have been upon losing those you did, or how joyful you must have been at the ones who made it!
Not to mention that even a miscarriage can trigger a “post partum” psychotic episode.
Alan
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Sylvia22
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Exporter said:
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AlanFromWichita
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Sylvia22 said:
Ditto. If you can get the job done with 3, then 6 is poor stewardship over resources.
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Mom_of_one
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carol marie:
How heartbreaking. I am so sorry for your losses. I lost 2 out of 3, and I still hurt several years later, I can’t imagine the pain you must feel.:crying: And I had a D&C after I lost my 2nd one, but the thought that I was aborting never crossed my mind. I hope the person who wondered if they were the same thing just misunderstood what the difference is.
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AlanFromWichita
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Momofone:
Alan
I don’t know what they were thinking, but I like to see what lessons I can get from anything – even when I might not agree with them. What I got out of it was not to judge by appearances. Just because a person is having a particular procedure doesn’t mean they have committed evil. For example, if we see a sickening photo of a child’s remains after such a procedure, how do we really know that the child was alive prior to it? I’m going to think of that next time I see an abortion protester waving around such a photo.
Alan
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snowgarden
Guest
Momofone:
“And only where God is seen does life truly begin. Only when we meet the living God in Christ do we know what life is. We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary.”
I loved what Benedict XVI said in his installation homily that illustrates my understanding of why God is the author of life:
“And only where God is seen does life truly begin. Only when we meet the living God in Christ do we know what life is. We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary.”
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Mom_of_one
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This just brought me to tears.
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new_man
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I am no theologian and only have an opinion but surely the wilful deliberate taking of human life is greater sin than almost any other.
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kaymart
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Fornification is considered a mortal sin of course. but to compound it with an abortion is far more grave. The first sin is morally corupting of two people knowing what they are doing is wrong, but abortion is killing of a totally innocent person and thats just plain murder.IT’S NOT A CHOICE IT’S A CHILD
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Nan_S
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I would humbly suggest that our judgment about the relative “badness” of fornication versus abortion is irrelevant. God has told us that both sins are equal, and, if unrepented, both receive the same penalty:
***Rev 21:6-8 *And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
Abortion:
– kills the unborn child’s body, but his/her innocent soul is intact and returns in purity to God.
– often leads to repentance and forgiveness. Many women who had abortions regret it deeply.
Fornication:
– rejects the Holy Spirit dwelling in our own soul, replacing it with selfish craving.
– seldom leads to repentance. Most fornicators enjoy the sin so much that start rejecting God in other ways also.
***Rev 21:6-8 *And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
Abortion:
– kills the unborn child’s body, but his/her innocent soul is intact and returns in purity to God.
– often leads to repentance and forgiveness. Many women who had abortions regret it deeply.
Fornication:
– rejects the Holy Spirit dwelling in our own soul, replacing it with selfish craving.
– seldom leads to repentance. Most fornicators enjoy the sin so much that start rejecting God in other ways also.
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abcdefg
Guest
they all will be burnt in hell in unrepentent. but the degree of punishment in hell varies with the sin one commits.
it’s unfair one who murdered one people and the other who murdered 100 people suffer the same fate in hell. maybe they both receive life in prison or death penalty on the earth but that just due to human’s inability to incarcerate/execute him 100 times.
ps: pakistanian judge sentenced serial killer Javed Iqbal to be strangled 100 times with the rope(chain?) he used to kill. don’t know how that would be carry out since Javed hanged himself in prison.
it’s unfair one who murdered one people and the other who murdered 100 people suffer the same fate in hell. maybe they both receive life in prison or death penalty on the earth but that just due to human’s inability to incarcerate/execute him 100 times.
ps: pakistanian judge sentenced serial killer Javed Iqbal to be strangled 100 times with the rope(chain?) he used to kill. don’t know how that would be carry out since Javed hanged himself in prison.
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Holly3278
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Definitely abortion. How anyone could think fornication is worse, I’ll never know.
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