Who Deserves to be in Hell?

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If God can annihilate a person without ceasing to love them, then why not annihilate His enemies now? Why wait and allow them to inflict all this harm? Their existence is not good in itself, and all they do is evil, so why are they here?
You sound like the Psalmist!
LORD, avenging God, avenging God, shine forth!
Rise up, judge of the earth; give the proud what they deserve.
How long, LORD, shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked glory?
How long will they mouth haughty speeches, go on boasting, all these evildoers?
They crush your people, LORD, torment your very own.
They kill the widow and alien; the fatherless they murder.
They say, “The LORD does not see; the God of Jacob takes no notice.”
Understand, you stupid people! You fools, when will you be wise?
Does the one who shaped the ear not hear? The one who formed the eye not see?
Does the one who guides nations not rebuke? The one who teaches humans not have knowledge?
…[CUT]…
No, the LORD is my secure height, my God, the rock where I find refuge,
Who will turn back their evil upon them and destroy them for their wickedness.
Surely the LORD our God will destroy them!
  • Psalm 94
But if you lose the first, then it becomes that God creates evil people whose existence is not good…[CUT]…because good ends cannot justify evil means - God has done evil. Which is not sensical.
People makes themselves wicked through their own choice. That doesn’t mean it is wicked for God to create them.
Further, how would it be possible not to miss someone who you love(d)? Heaven is a place of perfect happiness, to be sure, but that does not imply that we magically lose the ability to recognize that someone who we love has fallen.
No one loves the people who are annihilated. They have made themselves unlovable.
And last, if God is existence, and God is love, and God is simple, then fundamentally existence and love, in God, are the same. To be gifted existence by God would then be identical to being gifted love by God.
I’m not sure we know from reason or the Torah these statements about God’s essence.
Because the best could have been much, much better.
This is an explicit contradiction. “Best” is the superlative of which there can be no better.
No, but rather to perfect it. There is a resurrection of the dead…[CUT]…He saw that it was good, not merely expedient.
This universe contains massive amounts of destruction that leads to new creation. God can use wicked men to help “create” good ones. We are here to learn, and the wicked teach us many of our lessons.
Tools for what purpose, exactly? To serve God and His creation, you say, but God does not need us…[CUT]…or not bother making a Garden in the first place.
None of us is necessary. Our existence is a completely gratuitous gift from God to us. He has the right to remove that gift if we reject it.
The difference between a created person and a non-person (be it a dog or a couch) is that a person was created for his own sake and a non-person is not. Otherwise, a man is no more than a rather squishy rock that makes weird noises.

This also destroys your objection Hell, even with the worst understanding of it possible. If we are so disposable, merely tools, what harm is it to throw a tool in an unregarded corner for eternity? I mean, it might make unfortunate noises, but so long as you aren’t listening, who cares?
Man is created in the image of God; this is what makes him a person. Our ability to reason is the “image” of God’s knowledge.

Hell is not merely throwing out useless tools, that would be annihilation. Hell is the active, miraculous existence of the tools in a state of constant destruction.
First, how could you possibly know? Second, the parallels between your view and the view of hell that you try to describe in such words as to make it sound like the creation of an evil God are pretty near exact - the same objections you make carry over exactly. The orthodox Christian could say more or less the same thing: Praise God for giving us the chance to live, and praise God for doing the best for even the worst of us!

The difference is that the Christian view paints a picture of a God who loves us all unconditionally, and your view paints a picture of a God who loves us so long as we are useful. Which isn’t really love.
Of course I don’t know, but I doubt it. Endless torment is not the “best outcome” in any estimation!

God loves us unconditionally, but if we disobey him and hate him, he will let us die (or actually kill us, if you prefer). Spend some time with the Prophets in the Old Testament.
 
In my opinion, the people who deserve to be in Hell are those who do real, severe, and intentional harm to others and do not repent. Rapists, murderers, suicide-bombers/kamikaze pilots, child pornographers, pedophiles, mass-murderers, those who steal from or exploit the destitute, those who through selfishness allow others to suffer or die despite being able to save them (“I call it genocide-like activity because if I called it a genocide I would have to intervene and that would hurt my career”), violators of human rights, those who purposefully obstruct justice; people who John Locke would describe as “enemies of humankind”.

The people who don’t deserve to be in hell are people whose sins only hurt themselves or whose harm towards others is minor. Petty thieves, occasional masturbators, drug addicts, and non-believers would (assuming Jesus is as merciful as he claims to be in The Gospel) get to Heaven when they die (either directly or after a bit of time in the educational class that is purgatory).
You can write up a new set of commandments…leaving out the ones you don’t like.

Will you etch them in stone? :confused:
 
Those in hell are there because of one thing … they do not take responsibility for their sin(s). If they did that, then they could say they are sorry. But instead they make all kinds of excuses why they are right and did nothing wrong. Which is summed up in the missing virtue of humility.

This explains the necessity of good prayer, humble and owning up.
Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood there and said this prayer to himself, “I think you, God, that I am not grasping, unjust, adulterous like the rest of mankind, and particularly that I am not like this tax collector here. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes on all I get.” The tax collector stood some distance away, not daring even to raise his eyes to heaven; but he beat his breast and said, “God, be merciful to me a sinner”. This man, I tell you, went home again at rights with God; the other did not. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the man who humbles himself will be exalted. (Mark 18:10–
 
You can write up a new set of commandments…leaving out the ones you don’t like.

Will you etch them in stone? :confused:
People who think that God judges us by a check-box list of sins (“if you checked yes to any of these, go to Hell”), that God does not care about the content of our hearts or the good things we did in life, who think more people go to hell than heaven … people like this are what drove Martin Luther to heresy.
 
People who think that God judges us by a check-box list of sins (“if you checked yes to any of these, go to Hell”), that God does not care about the content of our hearts or the good things we did in life, who think more people go to hell than heaven … people like this are what drove Martin Luther to heresy.
I’ve been away, so I’m a bit lost, but I like what you say.

This idea of a list of sins and how one gets to hell is starting to bother me. And I’ve been studying Christianity for 40 years (not that I know all that much).

I was up in a sanctuary this week; once a month to study adult catechism; about 12 of us. Some were asking if drinking alcohol is a sin. How much. Is smoking a sin. How many cigarettes. It was getting ridiculous.

I said how we should know when we’re sinning and stop trying to depend on a list. After all, didn’t God say he wanted the Law to be written on our heart? What exactly does that mean?

I miss Mass and God is sending me to hell? How about some mature faith?

I do or don’t do things because my husband has a list: I do or don’t do them because I have a love relationship with him.

Maybe people are going to hell because they either didn’t believe (both the English and greek believe) in God, or they knew He existed but refused to follow Him. Maybe He’s a lot bigger than that box we have Him in.

BTW, Fra’ Lorenzo said you need both the Law and the relationship.

I hope I understood you. It’s nice to know there are others out there who would agree. Sometimes my position is not understood.

Fran
 
Right.

But could you agree that it’s our rapport and belief in Jesus, our redeemer, that will ultimately keep us close to God and ‘save’ us?

I was going to give some examples but let’s leave that to God.

Fran
 
HELLO PUMPKIN COOKIE

Didn’t mean to ignore you. Computer problems.

Just a couple of thoughts on post 74.

I read all your replies and, needless to say, I do believe Jesus was the Son of God. Otherwise, I’ve been following a madman!

I also agree with you that the first generation Christians were awaiting His return at any moment. This is why the book of Thessalonians was written. Didn’t Paul say to keep working and living life normally and that the end would come like a thief in the night?

First Israel had to be gathered again after the demise of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It’s only happening now. And the events in the Middle East do confirm that the end will come from that region of the world and that Israel will h ave a role to play. God’s timing is not our timing. Even Jesus was born in the fullness of time. So this doesn’t bother me. Jesus will come back at the right time; whenever that’ll be. Maybe soon. So I don’t know that you could believe Jesus is not the Messiah just because He hasn’t returned yet.

You say:

Hell is unreasonable. Vicarious atonement is unreasonable. Transubstantiation is unreasonable. Original sin is unreasonable. The trinity is unreasonable. Papal or magisterial infallibility is unreasonable. Sacraments are unreasonable. The Marian dogmas are unreasonable. Satan is unreasonable. I certainly do not have time to go through all of these!

Hell is not unreasonable because God is so pure He cannot be in the presence of sin. So hell could just be the absence of God. It’s not really explained anywhere except that some such place of knashing of teeth is spoken of by Jesus.

No comment of transubstantiation. John 6 seems clear, but there are differing opinions. Can’t place your entire faith system on this.

Origina Sin was not invented by Augustine. It’s in the story of Adam and Eve. Then someone decided to call it Original Sin. it just explains how evil entered into the world. If God is good, as you say, there has to be some explanation for all the bad we see. Could a good God create evil?? Thus, an explanation. Which is very unsatisfactory, I must say / but one there must be.

Ditto for the Trinity. It’s obvious in scripture that there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit. Call it what you will.

If Satan is unreasonable, what causes evil? You have to come up with an explanation if God is so good, as you say. This is a big problem in Christianity, as you must know. Have you come up with a different reason for evil??

Jesus did say to go and baptize. Maybe He meant adults. He did institute Communion at the last supper. Call them what you will, sacraments - whatever. He did say to do these two things. Maybe it’s Catholicism you have a problem with? Thus, I won’t comment on the magisterium, etc

And, last but not least, you say:

No, there is only one power: God. There is only one God. He is all-good and would not allow us to be born under the dominion of “Satan.” Original sin is the dark fantasy of Augustine. Jews have had Genesis for 5,000 years and no one ever dreamed up something so insidious! It is the product of Gnostic dualism, in my opinion.

If there is only one Power, how do you explain the evil in man, the evil in nature?j Why does a soft breeze turn into a hurricane? Why does one human kill another human? Why do we hate? Where do these evils come from? The good God you profess?

I understand how you feel about some concepts but how could you think original sin is insidious when it’s so obvious that it exists.

I do think there’s a big problem for you with "Augustine and everybody else - wish you’d just forget about them and how the bibel was put together. All the books were already in existence before they became the bible.

I was reading Galatians and was thinking of you. Especially chapters 1 to 4, but practically the whole book.

You kind of remind me of JW who want to tell me Jesus was a son of God, not The Son of God. Or maybe a nice prophet like they used to claim about 30 yrs ago, but have since upgraded somewhat. Maybe they’ll keep upgrading till they get here!

Maybe you could forget about the church fathers, the magisterium, the popes, and just look to God and the One whom He sent.

PC, if the resurrection is not true, we’re all just a bunch of fools out here! How sad that would be, that the apostles could lie and go to their death bringing the lie with them. And that if it were a conspiracy, that not one of them gave it up! THIS is what’s really difficult to believe fo me.

Fran
 
I also agree with you that the first generation Christians were awaiting His return at any moment. This is why the book of Thessalonians was written. Didn’t Paul say to keep working and living life normally and that the end would come like a thief in the night?
I like to think that the end he meant was death. You know, since when we die that’s it for us: we either go to Him, or we wait in Purgatory (where we can’t do anything to help ourselves), or we go straight to hell (like purgatory, only worse :p)

Even now, people keep waiting for “the end of times” when, in fact, the end of our times comes to us all the time. Even if He is only going to return in some 2 thousand years, it’s not like I have until 4015AD to keep postponing making a saint out of me. For all I know, I have only today to work on that :eek:

(just my :twocents: on “people waiting for His return” 😊)
 
I like to think that the end he meant was death. You know, since when we die that’s it for us: we either go to Him, or we wait in Purgatory (where we can’t do anything to help ourselves), or we go straight to hell (like purgatory, only worse :p)

Even now, people keep waiting for “the end of times” when, in fact, the end of our times comes to us all the time. Even if He is only going to return in some 2 thousand years, it’s not like I have until 4015AD to keep postponing making a saint out of me. For all I know, I have only today to work on that :eek:

(just my :twocents: on “people waiting for His return” 😊)
Hello Novus Fidem,

I see y ou’re new here too, as I am.

Difficult to know exactly what everyone intends with these written words of ours.
Are you serious that you think Paul meant ‘death’ when referring to the end in the book of Thessalonians? I hope you’re not.

The people of Thessalonica had stopped going to work and were just waiting around for Jesus to return and for the end to come. Paul wrote to them so they could return to their normal routines and NOT wait for the end. So, it’s kind of the opposite of what you state re waiting for the end.

Sometimes when Jesus was talking about end times He might have meant the end of Jerusalem, which did occur in '70. Sometimes, instead, He meant the end of the world, and the beginning of the new age where man will lie with lion, etc. Hate to sound like a JW but we do agree with them on this.

But, yes,you’re right. Be a saint TODAY! Don’t postpone!

Fran
 
HELLO PUMPKIN COOKIE

Didn’t mean to ignore you. Computer problems.

No worries! I don’t feel ignored. I don’t have good internet forum etiquette, but I never expect a reply. I view participation as totally optional and voluntary. If you don’t respond, I don’t interpret that as you having no answer, but rather choosing not to post. That is totally fine. 👍 I often choose not to respond because I think it isn’t worthwhile. Can’t tell you how many posts I haven’t written! :rotfl:

Just a couple of thoughts on post 74.

I read all your replies and, needless to say, I do believe Jesus was the Son of God. Otherwise, I’ve been following a madman!

Why madman? You have been following your understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches about Jesus. They don’t have to be madmen, they could simply be mistaken. Right? Why does the choice have to be, either Jesus is God or he is a nutcase? Why couldn’t he have been misunderstood or misrepresented by those who have told you about him?

I also agree with you that the first generation Christians were awaiting His return at any moment. This is why the book of Thessalonians was written. Didn’t Paul say to keep working and living life normally and that the end would come like a thief in the night?

First Israel had to be gathered again after the demise of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It’s only happening now. And the events in the Middle East do confirm that the end will come from that region of the world and that Israel will h ave a role to play. God’s timing is not our timing. Even Jesus was born in the fullness of time. So this doesn’t bother me. Jesus will come back at the right time; whenever that’ll be. Maybe soon. So I don’t know that you could believe Jesus is not the Messiah just because He hasn’t returned yet.

He explicitly said he would be back within one generation. This didn’t happen. Boom.

Further, he did not fulfill the essential prophecies pertaining to the Messiah. He fulfilled made-up prophecies like being born of a virgin or escaping from Egypt. The Gospel authors tried to “squeeze” Jesus into the narrative of their own faulty understanding of the Messianic prophecies. I could comment on this in detail at length, but I won’t because this is neither the time nor place.

You say:

Hell is unreasonable. Vicarious atonement is unreasonable. Transubstantiation is unreasonable. Original sin is unreasonable. The trinity is unreasonable. Papal or magisterial infallibility is unreasonable. Sacraments are unreasonable. The Marian dogmas are unreasonable. Satan is unreasonable. I certainly do not have time to go through all of these!

Hell is not unreasonable because God is so pure He cannot be in the presence of sin. So hell could just be the absence of God. It’s not really explained anywhere except that some such place of knashing of teeth is spoken of by Jesus.

No comment of transubstantiation. John 6 seems clear, but there are differing opinions. Can’t place your entire faith system on this.

Origina Sin was not invented by Augustine. It’s in the story of Adam and Eve. Then someone decided to call it Original Sin. it just explains how evil entered into the world. If God is good, as you say, there has to be some explanation for all the bad we see. Could a good God create evil?? Thus, an explanation. Which is very unsatisfactory, I must say / but one there must be.

Evil is the result of our imperfection as creatures. It is the result of us making mistakes as we “learn the hard way.”

Jews have had the Genesis story for 3,000 years and no one ever thought of original sin. If it is in the story, they all missed it! Do you know that many Rabbis memorize the entire Torah? How did they miss it?
 
Ditto for the Trinity. It’s obvious in scripture that there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit. Call it what you will.

If it is so obvious, why did most bishops become Arians? They had to be suppressed with violence. Is violence a mode of truth?

If Satan is unreasonable, what causes evil? You have to come up with an explanation if God is so good, as you say. This is a big problem in Christianity, as you must know. Have you come up with a different reason for evil??

We cause evil because we are imperfect. God is good though he allows evil. “Ha satan” is the tester. He works for God and does his will.

Jesus did say to go and baptize. Maybe He meant adults. He did institute Communion at the last supper. Call them what you will, sacraments - whatever. He did say to do these two things. Maybe it’s Catholicism you have a problem with? Thus, I won’t comment on the magisterium, etc

And, last but not least, you say:

No, there is only one power: God. There is only one God. He is all-good and would not allow us to be born under the dominion of “Satan.” Original sin is the dark fantasy of Augustine. Jews have had Genesis for 5,000 years and no one ever dreamed up something so insidious! It is the product of Gnostic dualism, in my opinion.

If there is only one Power, how do you explain the evil in man, the evil in nature?j Why does a soft breeze turn into a hurricane? Why does one human kill another human? Why do we hate? Where do these evils come from? The good God you profess?

Evil comes from us. We come from God. So, yes, evil comes from God in an indirect way. It is all part of our education, and it is very painful and horrible. Someday he will make things right, I hope.

I understand how you feel about some concepts but how could you think original sin is insidious when it’s so obvious that it exists.

No other human culture or civilization thinks children are born guilty. Apparently it isn’t so obvious to most of humanity.

I do think there’s a big problem for you with "Augustine and everybody else - wish you’d just forget about them and how the bibel was put together. All the books were already in existence before they became the bible.

I do ignore them, I just go one further and include the New Testament.

I was reading Galatians and was thinking of you. Especially chapters 1 to 4, but practically the whole book.

You kind of remind me of JW who want to tell me Jesus was a son of God, not The Son of God. Or maybe a nice prophet like they used to claim about 30 yrs ago, but have since upgraded somewhat. Maybe they’ll keep upgrading till they get here!

Maybe you could forget about the church fathers, the magisterium, the popes, and just look to God and the One whom He sent.

PC, if the resurrection is not true, we’re all just a bunch of fools out here! How sad that would be, that the apostles could lie and go to their death bringing the lie with them. And that if it were a conspiracy, that not one of them gave it up! THIS is what’s really difficult to believe fo me.

I’m not a JW, and feel very bad for them. The Watchtower uses psychological/social pressure to control and enslave (spiritually/mentally) their members.

You’re not a fool! You’re just like everyone else. We all have wrong ideas about God, that doesn’t mean we’re fools, it means we’re humans. Consider: if you’re right about Jesus, then most of humanity are fools, according to you. If you’re wrong, then a billion people are fools, according to you. Either way, a huge amount of people are wrong about this.

Fran
 
People who think that God judges us by a check-box list of sins (“if you checked yes to any of these, go to Hell”), that God does not care about the content of our hearts or the good things we did in life, who think more people go to hell than heaven … people like this are what drove Martin Luther to heresy.
We commit mortal sin by breaking one of the 10 Commandments…

From what you say are sins…you leave out Commandment 1, 2, 3, 4.
  1. Thou shalt not Kill… you keep
  2. " " " commit adultery…you keep in part.
  3. " " " steal…depends on who you steal from
  4. " " " bear false witness…you didn’t mention lying, but I guess if it hurts someone, it’s a sin.
  5. Thou shalt not covet neighbor’s…wife…you may agree.
    10 " …goods…maybe if the neighbor is not rich.
These are less demanding than God’s Commandments.
 
In my opinion, the people who deserve to be in Hell are those who do real, severe, and intentional harm to others and do not repent. Rapists, murderers, suicide-bombers/kamikaze pilots, child pornographers, pedophiles, mass-murderers, those who steal from or exploit the destitute, those who through selfishness allow others to suffer or die despite being able to save them (“I call it genocide-like activity because if I called it a genocide I would have to intervene and that would hurt my career”), violators of human rights, those who purposefully obstruct justice; people who John Locke would describe as “enemies of humankind”.

The people who don’t deserve to be in hell are people whose sins only hurt themselves or whose harm towards others is minor. Petty thieves, occasional masturbators, drug addicts, and non-believers would (assuming Jesus is as merciful as he claims to be in The Gospel) get to Heaven when they die (either directly or after a bit of time in the educational class that is purgatory).
Hello Born in March,

I reread all these posts since my computer is working better now and I need to fix something I said in an earlier post, no. 86 in response to your original post no. 81.

I agree with you that a list of sins is not a good way to go about pleasing God. We can’t not sin because it’s on a list somewhere. Where is this list? Is every single sin on there?
True to Faith is speaking on the 10 commandments and he’s (she’s?) right too.

The10 Commandments were given to us to show us what sin is and to show us that we sin. Also for moral reasons and to make life better and all that. So, we have to follow God’s commandments.

What I’m saying is that it has to go BEYOND that. It’s pretty much how Jesus said in the two great commandments He left us with: Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and Love your neighbor as yourself.

That pretty much covers it all. Love will not allow you to sin. If you love God you won’t sin against God, if you love your neighbor you won’t sin against your neighbor, and if you love yourself you won’t sin against yourself. But, of course, all sin is sin against God because He made up the rules!

I have to disagree with your contention that some sins are less and don’t count because they hurt only the private person. There’s no such idea expressed in christianity. ALL sin hurts someone, it could even be just the person commiting the sin.

God is perfect and he cannot be in the presence of sin. Any sin, no matter how small.

So, I like your idea of going beyond a list, but you’re not correct in the other assumptions you make. They don’t jive with christianity.

This is important. Just wanted to clarify. My post in conjunction with your post made ME upset!

Fran
 
Pumpkin Cookie,

We’re reached our wall. We can go back and forth but it won’t do any good.

Let me just say a few things I feel are important.

WHO IS JESUS:
Yes. I believe Jesus had to be God or He was a crazy man. Think about it. He forgave people their sins. Who the heck did He think he was? God? Only God can forgive sins. Mathew 9:2-7. He spit on some guys eyes and healed his blindness. Mark 8:22. He walked on water. Mathew 14:25. Brought some back to life from the dead. Mathew 9:18, John 11:1. The Sanhedrin wanted to put Him to death for blaspheming (and other reasons). This means that they knew Jesus was saying He was the Son of God.

So yes, either He was God, or He was crazy. OR the apostles were crazy for dying for Him and living the difficult life they lived. And what about the transfiguration. Those apostles must h ave been crazy to think people would people such stories! You can’t say Jesus was just a nice teacher of good moral values that wanted to make people understand God better. Won’t work.

And, the most important N.T. passage of all: Mathew 16:13-17. Who do YOU say that I am? The question must be answered. Please don’t say He was a good teacher.

If He was just misrepresented, as you say, then the Apostles were crazy people. There’s no getting out of this PC.

ONE GENERATION AND PROPHECIES
So He didn’t return in that generation. What exactly is one generation? Was the world really created in six days? What is time to God? When Jesus said This generation of vipers, was He speaking only of the children of fathers of that particular moment? Or of an entire generation meaning till the end of time?

And, I feel like you’re kind of stuck with the prophecies of His birth. What about all the other ones - like in Isaiah for instance? Ezekiel. “He was led like a lamb to the slaughter” “He did not open His mouth” - and many important ones I don’t have the time to get into but that I think you must know.

I once heard that any person could have fulfilled one prophecy. Maybe even two. But Jesus fulfilled so many that the chances of this likelihood would be like someone finding ONE black coin amoungst all white ones covering the state of Texas and 1 inch high.

THE GENESIS STORY AND EVIL
Yeah. I know about how the Rabbis memorized the Torah. So WHY do they think the story of Adam and Eve was ever written to begin with?? You could extrapolate a lot from this story. The actual words ORIGINAL SIN do not have to be in there. As for children being born guilty - do you think they’re born innocent? Have you raised children? This doesn’t mean I think God sends children to hell. But I don’t think they’re born innocent either. They have the sin nature, just like we all do. It’s ingrained into our dna.

Which gets us back to the whole question of evil. It’s not us that create evil PC. We create misery for ourselves and much evil comes from us and is caused by us. But where does that evil come from to begin with? What is the original cause? What about the evil in nature? But I’m repeating myself. And you don’t have the answer.

You say by inference it comes from God. Then God is not good, like you claim Him to be. Your reasoning is lacking here or I’m not understanding you. You say we are imperfect creatures. WHY are we imperfect? Important questions to answer. I guess you must have considered all this.

SUPPRESION AND VIOLENCE
Some bishops were claiming 3 Gods, or that Jesus was a nice man - which he couldn’t be. So I guess the church wanted its say. Persons are only human; which is why I don’t trust persons but Jesus.

All I’ve learned is not from the church. I’ve read on my own, When I met the Lord, the church wasn’t around. It’s something between me and Him. if you want to learn some christian concepts, then the church is necessary. But you could know Jesus on your own. Which is what you should be doing and not reading anymore of all those people I mentioned in my last post. And I say this at the expense of making many angry with me, but I’ve seen this too often in my experience and it seems to me that religion could get in the way of christianity.

So that’s about all I have to say. Anything more will be a repeat. Your leaving christianity does sadden me even though I don’t know you. I think the cross of Jesus holds the key to our understand God and our pleasing God. He is not a vengeful God but a loving God and thus John 3:16.

It’s all true PC, or it’s all a lie. No in between.

Fran
 
Splitting into two posts, which is sub-optimal, but hey.
People makes themselves wicked through their own choice. That doesn’t mean it is wicked for God to create them.
I agree (modulo disagreement over what a wicked person is), but while things that have some evil consequences can be justified, they must actually justified, especially given God’s omniscience. There has to be a reason why it’s ok for God to create people who turn into Hitlers (via their own choice), given that God knows that they will. The orthodox position is that even the worst of us were created for our own sakes, and that God loves us all, and that our existence is good in and of itself.

To say that their existence is justified by the use to which God puts them is problematic, but discussed below.
No one loves the people who are annihilated. They have made themselves unlovable.
This seems impossible. I would imagine that even the parents of the worst criminals in the world still love their children, even if they recognize that they have committed horrible crimes and rejected God in every possible way.

I would think God loves us all more.
I’m not sure we know from reason or the Torah these statements about God’s essence.
See Aquinas, he gets them from reason alone. Also, I Am Who Am, from exodus.
This is an explicit contradiction. “Best” is the superlative of which there can be no better.
You are, again, oversimplifying. For each set of givens, the best, if there is a best, may be different. There is a best outcome given that people choose a certain way, and a best outcome if they choose another.

Taking the given “this person chose in such a way as to be damned,” the best absolutely is hell. Taking that as a given, we do not mourn that, given that the person chose as he did, he ended up in hell.

But we do mourn the given, which we have no control over (and which God influences, but chooses not control absolutely).
This universe contains massive amounts of destruction that leads to new creation. God can use wicked men to help “create” good ones. We are here to learn, and the wicked teach us many of our lessons.
This is essentially saying that the evil is justified by the good that comes from it, but that the evil people have no reason for existing in and of themselves. Then either a) God chooses to use evil to accomplish good (there is no inherent goodness behind the evil) even though He doesn’t need to, so He chooses evil just because He wants to, or b) God needs to use evil reach the good that He desires.

a) suggests that God chooses evil directly. This is not acceptable.

b) is problematic twice: First God cannot need anything, our presence (evil or not) cannot be something that is necessary for God to do good things. Second, that good needs evil inherently is very, very problematic.
 
Response, continued (part 2 of 2, subtitle: Brevity is not my thing).
None of us is necessary. Our existence is a completely gratuitous gift from God to us. He has the right to remove that gift if we reject it.
Indubitably, at least in the sense that “we have no claim on God for our continued existence.” But just because we have no exterior claim on God does not mean that God does act according to Goodness (that is, act according God, or Himself). That is, though we have no claims on God, merely because God is God, there are some things that He does and does not do. God does not do evil, because to do evil would be to not be God, not because whatever victims may or may not exist have some right exterior to God that prevents God from doing anything in particular.

So in the sense that I can make no argument to God for my continued existence, absolutely true. Nevertheless, God loves us unconditionally, and acts accordingly - even when such acts are not what we want (because we’re stupid and confused).
Man is created in the image of God; this is what makes him a person. Our ability to reason is the “image” of God’s knowledge.
Is it our reason that is the image though? Would a sufficiently advanced computer be a person? A human born brain damaged who cannot reason?

You could say that computers will never get that advanced, and that may be true, but how do you tell if it has? What’s the cutoff?

And for the brain damaged human who is yet a person, the answer is that reason is built into humanity, but the brain damaged person is a person whose capacity for reason is broken, but it still a person.

It is not merely the ability to reason that makes us in the image of God. That’s part of it to be sure, but not to the extent that any entity that lacks the ability to reason is not a person. There must then be more to what it means to be a person so that the brain damaged becomes a person with a damaged faculty, rather than a former person (envision a chair with a broken leg - still a chair, but damaged and not fully a functional - versus what you get after burning a chair to ash - not a chair.).

God is not merely a reasoning machine, but also Goodness itself. It would follow that an image of God would also in some way incorporate this goodness, no? Though I am not sure if it follows from this alone (would have to spend more time), it seems likely that an image of God would at the least have to be good fundamentally, in order for it to be anywhere near an image of perfect Goodness itself.
Hell is not merely throwing out useless tools, that would be annihilation. Hell is the active, miraculous existence of the tools in a state of constant destruction.
Nope. Annihilation would be removing the tools from existence. In this analogy, which is not a good one for Hell, since we do not believe persons to be mere implements as you do, Hell would be not forcing the tool to come in and have dinner with you if it doesn’t want to. Letting it sit out in the dark all by itself if it won’t come in, but otherwise neither destroying it nor necessarily doing much else to it at all.
Of course I don’t know, but I doubt it. Endless torment is not the “best outcome” in any estimation!
But if they chose poorly, would you be able to stop loving them? I think the answer is generally no. Note that love does not preclude large amounts of anger and disappointment, but if a loved one fell so horribly, such strong reactions would in large part be due to the fact that we loved them, I think. Otherwise they’d just be names of people we knew were evil, like every other name of an evil person we knew. We might be angry at the murderer we do not know, but hardly in the same way we would be with a family member who committed murder.
God loves us unconditionally, but if we disobey him and hate him, he will let us die (or actually kill us, if you prefer). Spend some time with the Prophets in the Old Testament.
But did you not say that the annihilated were unloved and unlovable? If that is only by us now and not by God, then that is an imperfection in us which ought to be rectified, since we should strive to be like God. Since heaven tends to rectify such things as are not rectified when we get there, it follows that we both should and will love those who you say are to be annihilated simply because God does. Which brings back the question of the reaction to the annihilation of loved ones paralleling your question about the reaction to damnation.

I am not an Old Testament expert, but I am vaguely aware that Sheol is a thing. Further, in regards the prophets, a) while annihilation would certainly be one form of victory of God over His enemies, it is not the only form and b) the temporal strength (which is generally what such prophecies concerned, as I - again, a non expert - recall) was destroyed absolutely.

It is my understanding (as far as that goes) that Judaism was primarily concerned with the current world - keeping the Chosen people together, and following God’s law now in order to bring about goodness etc now. From such a perspective, the absolute destruction of an evil kings earthly kingdom suffices to satisfy all of the “enemies will perish” language. And it does - all the power of evil is destroyed absolutely. But that does not mean that those who committed it were annihilated, otherwise why Sheol?
 
Hello Born in March,

I reread all these posts since my computer is working better now and I need to fix something I said in an earlier post, no. 86 in response to your original post no. 81.

I agree with you that a list of sins is not a good way to go about pleasing God. We can’t not sin because it’s on a list somewhere. Where is this list? Is every single sin on there?
True to Faith is speaking on the 10 commandments and he’s (she’s?) right too.

The10 Commandments were given to us to show us what sin is and to show us that we sin. Also for moral reasons and to make life better and all that. So, we have to follow God’s commandments.

What I’m saying is that it has to go BEYOND that. It’s pretty much how Jesus said in the two great commandments He left us with: Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and Love your neighbor as yourself.

That pretty much covers it all. Love will not allow you to sin. If you love God you won’t sin against God, if you love your neighbor you won’t sin against your neighbor, and if you love yourself you won’t sin against yourself. But, of course, all sin is sin against God because He made up the rules!

I have to disagree with your contention that some sins are less and don’t count because they hurt only the private person. There’s no such idea expressed in christianity. ALL sin hurts someone, it could even be just the person commiting the sin.

God is perfect and he cannot be in the presence of sin. Any sin, no matter how small.

So, I like your idea of going beyond a list, but you’re not correct in the other assumptions you make. They don’t jive with christianity.

This is important. Just wanted to clarify. My post in conjunction with your post made ME upset!

Fran
Hi Fran, if you read my list of modified commandments, you’ll see BornInMarch left out the most important…1st ,2nd, & 3rd which pertain to God. 4th - Honoring Father & Mother is not important to BIM, either. 🤷
 
Splitting into two posts, which is sub-optimal, but hey.

I agree (modulo disagreement over what a wicked person is), but while things that have some evil consequences can be justified, they must actually justified, especially given God’s omniscience. There has to be a reason why it’s ok for God to create people who turn into Hitlers (via their own choice), given that God knows that they will. The orthodox position is that even the worst of us were created for our own sakes, and that God loves us all, and that our existence is good in and of itself.

To say that their existence is justified by the use to which God puts them is problematic, but discussed below.
Ok…
This seems impossible. I would imagine that even the parents of the worst criminals in the world still love their children, even if they recognize that they have committed horrible crimes and rejected God in every possible way.

I would think God loves us all more.
Adam Lanza’s father said he wished his son had never been born. Indeed, God regretted making man before he chose to wipe them out with the flood. To make oneself an enemy of God is to undo oneself.
See Aquinas, he gets them from reason alone. Also, I Am Who Am, from exodus.
Facile certainty about God’s essence is hubris. See: Job, Socrates, Maimonides, Kant, Kierkegaard.
You are, again, oversimplifying. For each set of givens, the best, if there is a best, may be different. There is a best outcome given that people choose a certain way, and a best outcome if they choose another.

Taking the given “this person chose in such a way as to be damned,” the best absolutely is hell. Taking that as a given, we do not mourn that, given that the person chose as he did, he ended up in hell.

But we do mourn the given, which we have no control over (and which God influences, but chooses not control absolutely).
Mourning that over which we have no control is senseless, see: Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Jesus. God ultimately controls everything if he is simultaneously omnipotent and omniscient.
This is essentially saying that the evil is justified by the good that comes from it, but that the evil people have no reason for existing in and of themselves. Then either a) God chooses to use evil to accomplish good (there is no inherent goodness behind the evil) even though He doesn’t need to, so He chooses evil just because He wants to, or b) God needs to use evil reach the good that He desires.

a) suggests that God chooses evil directly. This is not acceptable.

b) is problematic twice: First God cannot need anything, our presence (evil or not) cannot be something that is necessary for God to do good things. Second, that good needs evil inherently is very, very problematic.
Only God knows why we perceive evil, see: Job. Evil is not a thing in itself, but merely the absence of an expected or imagined good, see: Augustine. God is not required to sustain the existence of every logically possible being in order to be good, and so is free to let go of the existence of those who hate him.
 
Response, continued (part 2 of 2, subtitle: Brevity is not my thing).

Indubitably,…[SNIP]…anything in particular.

So in the sense that I can make no argument to God for my continued existence, absolutely true. Nevertheless, God loves us unconditionally, and acts accordingly - even when such acts are not what we want (because we’re stupid and confused).
Just as God is not required to bring into existence every logically possible being, he is not required to sustain the existence of those who hate him. Neither lack of action is “evil.”
Is it our reason that is the image though? Would a sufficiently advanced computer be a person? A human born brain damaged who cannot reason?

You could say that computers will never get that advanced, and that may be true, but how do you tell if it has? What’s the cutoff?

And for the brain damaged human who is yet a person, the answer is that reason is built into humanity, but the brain damaged person is a person whose capacity for reason is broken, but it still a person.

It is not merely the ability to reason that makes us in the image of God. That’s part of it to be sure, but not to the extent that any entity that lacks the ability to reason is not a person. There must then be more to what it means to be a person so that the brain damaged becomes a person with a damaged faculty, rather than a former person (envision a chair with a broken leg - still a chair, but damaged and not fully a functional - versus what you get after burning a chair to ash - not a chair.).

God is not merely a reasoning machine, but also Goodness itself. It would follow that an image of God would also in some way incorporate this goodness, no? Though I am not sure if it follows from this alone (would have to spend more time), it seems likely that an image of God would at the least have to be good fundamentally, in order for it to be anywhere near an image of perfect Goodness itself.
The intrinsic ability to reason is the image of God’s knowing, and our fundamental relation to him as a person. Yes, God is good, and so are we, and so is everything else. Not a very meaningful word in this dialogue right now.
Nope. Annihilation would be removing the tools from existence. In this analogy, which is not a good one for Hell, since we do not believe persons to be mere implements as you do, Hell would be not forcing the tool to come in and have dinner with you if it doesn’t want to. Letting it sit out in the dark all by itself if it won’t come in, but otherwise neither destroying it nor necessarily doing much else to it at all.
Hell is not “leaving us alone,” it is God miraculously and continuously sustaining our bodies and souls in a state of torment, forever. If God were to “leave us alone” we would cease to exist, for we are made out of nothing and exist only as a result of his power and will.
But if they chose poorly, would you be able to stop loving them? I think the answer is generally no. Note that love does not preclude large amounts of anger and disappointment, but if a loved one fell so horribly, such strong reactions would in large part be due to the fact that we loved them, I think. Otherwise they’d just be names of people we knew were evil, like every other name of an evil person we knew. We might be angry at the murderer we do not know, but hardly in the same way we would be with a family member who committed murder.

But did you not say that the annihilated were unloved and unlovable? If that is only by us now and not by God, then that is an imperfection in us which ought to be rectified, since we should strive to be like God. Since heaven tends to rectify such things as are not rectified when we get there, it follows that we both should and will love those who you say are to be annihilated simply because God does. Which brings back the question of the reaction to the annihilation of loved ones paralleling your question about the reaction to damnation.
God continues to love those who hate him (for a while) because he is merciful and desires to give them a chance to repent. His tolerance is not endless, though it is much deeper than ours. Family members get divorced, disown each other, and become estranged over much less than the kind of heinous evil perpetrated by one who deserves annihilation. Who will be annihilated? No one I hope, but I suppose those who deserve it will be missed by no one.
I am not an Old Testament expert, but I am vaguely aware that Sheol is a thing. Further, in regards the prophets, a) while annihilation would certainly be one form of victory of God over His enemies, it is not the only form and b) the temporal strength (which is generally what such prophecies concerned, as I - again, a non expert - recall) was destroyed absolutely.

It is my understanding (as far as that goes) that Judaism was primarily concerned with the current world - keeping the Chosen people together, and following God’s law now in order to bring about goodness etc now. From such a perspective, the absolute destruction of an evil kings earthly kingdom suffices to satisfy all of the “enemies will perish” language. And it does - all the power of evil is destroyed absolutely. But that does not mean that those who committed it were annihilated, otherwise why Sheol?
I am not an expert on anything, and none of us are experts on the hereafter. I imagine it would give great comfort to those who hate God and torment his children to know that they can never be ultimately destroyed, and that God will support their rebellion against himself…forever!
 
Hi Fran, if you read my list of modified commandments, you’ll see BornInMarch left out the most important…1st ,2nd, & 3rd which pertain to God. 4th - Honoring Father & Mother is not important to BIM, either. 🤷
Hmmm. Stuff going on here I know nothing about…

I’ll say this: The first four are “DO’s” and pertain to God and the people who allowed us to be born.

The next 6 are “DONT’s” and refer to our relationship with others.

You can’t do the 6 unless you do the first 4.

And, BTW, aren’t the 10 Commandments a masterpiece?!

Fran
 
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