Who do you think will be the next pope?

[aroosi]

Come in, it was a joke…

 

[InThePew]

It’s important to remember that the cardinalate is an office not a extra level of holy orders, or even a promotion, and carries with it basically only one job - to elect the Pope. Historically, certain dioceses have carried with them cardinal’s hats - like Philadelphia, and Los Angeles and New York - along with the prefectures of major curial offices - the the Secretariat of State and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This is more or less the approach followed by JPII and Benedict.

Initially, Francis followed this with the first cardinals he created. His second consistory largely follows the same approach but with a few exceptions - a couple of which are more unusual. It’s probably about the third that things start to get more interesting with some new and exotic places - like Mauritius and Port Moresby (Papua New Guinea) amongst the “usual suspects” like Chicago and Madrid. His fourth consistory, the smallest with only five cardinals created, is more interesting with the Bishops of Stockholm an Archbishop from Mali, the Auxiliary Bishop of San Salvador, and a Vicar Apostolic from Laos appearing in the list along with the perfectly normal Archbishop of Barcelona. Likewise, his fifth and most recent take us on something of whirlwind world tour with places like Morocco, Guatemala, Pakistan, Madagascar and Japan all making the list.

So, what this tells is is that when Pope Francis talks about a Church going out to the peripheries, he really does mean it! After all, we we are to truly be catholic then that should surely be reflected in the makeup of the voting cardinals. This isn’t elevating “friends and allies only” - if anything, I very much doubt he know the Vicar Apostolic from Laos particularly well, if at all!

Finally, besides this, Francis has also sought to push back against careerism in the Church (for example with his restriction of the title of Monsignor) and his scattering of red hats to places and positions which wouldn’t be expected to hold one is another way of doing this.

 

[Anesti33]

Everything Pope Francis has done is to make the Curia less Roman and more universal. From the cardinalates that you mention, to the weakening of dicasteries and strengthening synods, episcopal conferences, and fostering collegiality, the Holy Father has done more than anyone else to ensure that the Church truly reflects and drives the whole world, not just a corner of Europe.

I think that withholding the cardinalate from those US sees is a canny move. It’s a somewhat gentle reminder to North Americans that we don’t rule the roost. It is also simple arithmetic: the Pontiff is technically limited to 120 electors, so he can’t give so many to Americans if he’s spreading them around the world.

Perhaps someday there will be a Pope from these USA, but I am not holding my breath, and I’d be wholly unsurprised to see +Turkson or +Chito as the front-runners.

 

[Anesti33]

Actually I am not so sure that an African would win. (Is it “winning” to be elected pope?) There are a number of papabile I can imagine who are not African, and it seems almost to be chasing novelty to dot the globe with Popes. Perhaps the electors will cleave closer to home and select +Oullet. Does +Schönborn have a chance?

 

[otjm]

we have seen things now like the denial of the cardinalate to the Archbishops of Philadelphia, Los Angeles, San Francisco,

I don’t believe that San Francisco has had a Cardinal in the past. Archbishop Levada was Archbishop of Portland, Oregon and there was plenty of “chin chatter” that he wanted the Red Hat; he was moved to San Francisco to be the Archbishop there and we then had Archbishop Francis George - for all of 11 months, until he was moved to Chicago and received the Red Hat.

Archbishop Levada had been a student of Cardinal Ratzinger (likely Bishop Ratzinger then, although I don’t have the time period) and subsequently was given the position in Rome of head of the dicastery Ratzinger held before being elected Pope, and Levada got the Red Hat.

LA and Philadelphia have however been sees which resulted in the red hat - although obviously in is not a guarantee.

 

[otjm]

and it seems almost to be chasing novelty to dot the globe with Popes.

I think rather than a novelty, it was a recognition that Popes could be someone other than an Italian, with the election of John Paul 2. Then the next election again elected a non-Italian; and this last election elected a non European.

Contrary to a phenomenal number of Catholics’ impressions (and I speak world-wide) the Church is not European or European/American. Further, given the ratio of Catholics who attend Mass weekly as opposed to those who do not, the Church is actually far more alive in terms of faithfulness of its baptized in countries other than America (which appears to be hovering in the low 20% range) or those in Europe (where in some countries they would be hard pressed to make 5%).

I am not suggesting that a Pope should be chosen on the basis of how many people show up each week. I am however, suggesting that leadership involves more than just running a diocese in the positive in terms of cash flow, or having a diocese which can afford to have the bishop attending world meetings. Leadership also involves understanding what is happening “on the ground” and someone not “Euro/American” is likely to have a more open understanding of a universal Church.

As a very minor example, Neither in Europe nor in America are we dealing with a country with a majority either Islamic or Hindi, or Taoist or Shintoist; and it is all too easy to see those issues in terms of politics.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

A fun topic. No names from me though I know of most of the players. Remember that Jorge Bergoglio wasn’t exactly unknown in the 2013 conclave. He did allegedly finish second to Benedict in 2005.

Another point, if I recall correctly, a considerable portion of the currently eligible cardinals were appointed by Francis. Add to that those who voted for him in 2013 and remain eligible. So if Francis resigned, it’s possible he could influence the election of his successor.

The one who gets picked will depend in part on what the college is thinking: do they want a short papacy like Benedict and Francis, then they might select an older cardinal. Or do they want the stability of a longer papacy, then a younger one would be more appropriate and they could go as young as Karol Wojtyla who was 58. Dunno, make your best guess.

In the meantime, I once compiled a list of the popes of the last two centuries with the ages at which they became popes, here it is:

name year-elected-pope age-when-elected
Francis 2013 age 76
Benedict 2005 age 78
John Paul II 1978 age 58
John Paul 1 1978 age 65 (an untimely death)
Paul VI 1963 age 65
John XXIII 1958 age 76
Pius XII 1939 age 63 (assumed papacy on his birthday!)
Pius XI 1922 age 64
Benedict XV 1914 age 59
Pius X 1903 age 68
Leo XIII 1878 age 67 (ruled until age 93!)
Pius IX 1846 age 54 (longest papacy ever)
Gregory XVI 1831 age 65
Pius VIII 1829 age 67 (this one’s a puzzler as he was already sick)
Leo XII 1823 age 63
Pius VII 1800 age 58

So someone in his 60’s is not 100% certain, but it’s been the way to bet. Just four under 63. Just three over 68; all in their late 70’s, but those have been the last two and three of the last six. Before John XXIII, no one since 1800 at least had been elected who was in his 70’s.

Further, selecting someone in his 70’s does not necessarily mean he’s going to be insignificant. John XXIII called the Vatican II council, after all. When he was expected to be a caretaker pope. So you never know.

 

[Maximian]

and, so far, Francis.

If extending basically full faculties to the SSPX isn’t traditionalist-friendly, I don’t know what is.

I completely agree. Im a traditionalist and I often shock “conservative” Catholics by pointing out that Francis is the most SSPX-friendly Pope so far.

However, don’t forget that traditionalism is not just about the Mass but about the doctrine that goes with it. It’s a unity, a package.

 

[otjm]

Im a traditionalist and I often shock “conservative” Catholics by pointing out that Francis is the most SSPX-friendly Pope so far.

I would not categorize Pope Francis as “SSPX friendly”.

A constant, repeated statement by Francis is that the clergy “needs to smell like the sheep”. He came in with a reputation of being strongly oriented to the faithful, and as spending much time out with the people when he was a bishop.

His extensions re" marriage and reconciliation are far more oriented to the faithful who elect to attend SSPX Masses than it is to the clergy of the SSPX. The people who attend to SSPX chapels are Catholics and they need the sacraments. Providing them the access they so seriously need is not an act for the benefit if the clergy and their point of view; it is for the benefit of the laity.

And it does nothing to further the discussions between the SSPX clergy and Rome.

 

[CTBcin]

If I was a betting man, I’d have to say that Cardinal Tagle is primed to be a favorite in the next conclave.

However, as we’ve seen in the past, the Holy Spirit often works in unexpected ways.

Who would I like to see as the next pope? I’m not so sure I’m qualified to make that judgement.

 

[Maximian]

the clergy “needs to smell like the sheep”. He came in with a reputation of being strongly oriented to the faithful,

That is exactly what the SSPX does. Let me tell you the experience of the sheep in our diocese. Background: average age in a parish church is well over sixty. Average numbers at a parish mass: 30. Average weekly collection at a parish church: 7-10 dollars. That’s total, not per person, though bear in mind that here the state pays for the buildings and salaries of the Church. Confession which is called “welcome” is by appointment only. There are a great many nationalities here and each has its own vernacular Mass, resulting in a fragmentation of the Catholic community. The specific language Masses are well attended at least, so you might get 3-400 at the Italian, Spanish or English Mass.

A group of about 100 of us smelly sheep, Brits, Poles, Japanese, Italians, Spanish, French, Dutch, Indians and Germans asked the Bishop to provide a Mass in the Extraordinary Form. He seemed sympathetic, he didn’t say no, but there were immediate objections from the clergy around him, especially that the EF is “divisive.” We pointed at the list of signatories, representative of so many countries, and all classes, from mechanics to opera singers, united only in their desire for the Latin Mass and asked the Bishop if he realised how absurd this objection is.
So they changed tack. Yes of course we can have a Mass, but there isn’t a priest who knows how to say it. Well, we found one, a Nigerian. You could see the dismay on the canons’ faces. In due course they came back with “we don’t have an available church.” So we pointed to their own list of 85 churches scheduled for closure and said “we’ll have one of those please. That’s one church fewer you need to close.”
So they then rescheduled the Nigerian priest’s workload and said “OK, but he’s only free at lunchtime.” (Bear in mind most of our group were young couples with small children who need to be fed at lunchtime).

These negotiations took almost two years and led nowhere so one guy called the SSPX from the next diocese and said, “would you say the Traditional Latin Mass in my barn? It needs a lot of work done though.” Within three days, three SSPX priests turned up with sledgehammers and, still wearing their cassocks, demolished the internal walls and poured a concrete floor.With their own hands these priests built a sacristy, altar steps and installed a wc. A local derelict church donated an altar, pulpit, confessional and altar rails. Mass began within three weeks.

Now and only now did the diocese react. The Nigerian priest was given the go ahead, a church was provided, so we now have both an SSPX and a diocesan TLM.

My point however is that, in the whole diocese, only one priest, an African, was willing to mix with the sheep and, at risk of his career in the TLM-unfriendly environment, respond to their need. But the priests who were literally willing to get their hands dirty for the sheep were from the SSPX.

 

[otjm]

Seems to me that one could also have asked that the OF be offered in Latin, as that is the language in which it is promulgated.

I suspect that underneath all of it was no desire for the EF.

I was not part of the discussions so I am not willing to pursue the matter, only to say that I have seen way too many issues (and most of them having nothing to do with the Church) in which it gets down quickly to two sides opposed to each other with neither side capable of stepping back and finding a way to accomplish something other than a meltdown.

If the primary objective was to have the EF said, then those proposing it should have sidestepped the process and taken it to Rome when they were receiving a “blow you off” response, thoroughly documented.

I have had extremely minimal contact with the SSPX, and that only indirectly; and without belaboring the point, the individual I knew went from a Catholic to an SPPX attender and came back with what I will call the tin foil hat monologue. I have to presume he got it from someone, either laity or the priest, but it was like he joined the flat earth society and fell off the edge.

Again, that was one individual whom I knew before this ever started, and I have no intention of painting all of the SSPX priests or laity who attend the chapels as such.

My archdiocese has had 7 parishes which offer the EF. They have either added one more parish, or the 7th was the one referenced by the Archbishop, who specifically said that the EF was being offered in the last parish because of the presence of " group not in union with Rome".

 

[Maximian]

We considered going to Rome. But it’s a big step and also we felt that the Bishop himself was being weak rather than bad, and we didn’t want to get him into trouble.

It wasn’t primarily about the Latin but about the Mass. However one of the good things about the EF is that it is in a neutral language.

 

[CathBoy1]

love his very American obsession with his favourite soda

Me too.

although it did convince me that John Makovich could really make even a reading of.the phone directory seem compelling.

No doubt. That man is a fantastic actor, it’s a shame that his talent was completely wasted on The New Pope, that follow up could’ve went in so many different interesting directions and instead they opted to go in one of the worst and absolutely uninteresting directions possible.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Perhaps someday there will be a Pope from these USA, but I am not holding my breath, and I’d be wholly unsurprised to see +Turkson or +Chito as the front-runners.

Speaking as a proud (in the good sense) Anglo-American, I think it would be kind of neat to have a Pope who not only speaks English as (arguably) his first language, but also has an English-sounding name like Peter Turkson. Just from a cursory Wikipedia search, it appears to be Ghanaian, maybe an Anglicized form of an indigenous name, or maybe some white Englishman named Turkson went to Ghana and married a Ghanaian woman once upon a time. Who knows?

Within three days, three SSPX priests turned up with sledgehammers and, still wearing their cassocks, demolished the internal walls and poured a concrete floor.With their own hands these priests built a sacristy, altar steps and installed a wc. A local derelict church donated an altar, pulpit, confessional and altar rails. Mass began within three weeks.

I would give a twenty-dollar bill to see three SSPX priests in cassocks with sledgehammers gutting a barn and pouring concrete. I hope someone took pictures or video.

Not suggesting that the end justifies the means — I stop short of saying that I approve of the SSPX setting up shop de novo in a diocese without the bishop’s permission — but there is no better way to get a diocesan Latin Mass in your town, than for the SSPX to open up a chapel. That gets things moving.

It wasn’t primarily about the Latin but about the Mass. However one of the good things about the EF is that it is in a neutral language.

That’s just it. Latin is nobody’s language, therefore it is everybody’s language. Even the Latin Novus Ordo Mass meets this need. I used to attend the Latin OF every Sunday (in DC), and the only thing any traditionalist could object to, is the humanistic-oriented language in the various prayers, which is transparent to those faithful who don’t know Latin. In essence, that is the primary reason I prefer the EF to the OF. (I said it was humanistic. I didn’t say it was heretical. Father Vincent Miceli made the same objection in his book The Antichrist, and he was a priest in good standing with Rome.)

 

[tuffsmurf]

English is not Cardinal Turksons native language by any means. Akan is.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

English is not Cardinal Turksons native language by any means. Akan is.

Okay, I said “arguably” precisely because I didn’t know whether Cardinal Turkson spoke some indigenous African language as his first language. Nonetheless, he does speak fluent English. Pope Francis, by his own admission, struggles with English. Pius XII, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI spoke English reasonably well, though heavily accented, during their papacies.

 

[tuffsmurf]

Doesn’t Cardinal Turkson have an accent? IDK, I often can’t tell who has an accent when speaking english or not unless it is very heavy. But yeah, pope Francis doesn’t really speak english, but he speaks a couple of other languages.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Doesn’t Cardinal Turkson have an accent? IDK, I often can’t tell who has an accent when speaking english or not unless it is very heavy. But yeah, pope Francis doesn’t really speak english, but he speaks a couple of other languages.

I would just call it “African-accented English”. Every nationality that speaks English has its own distinctive accent and intonation. And there can be such a thing as having two languages in which you function equally well. Most educated Dutch or Scandinavians speak better English than a lot of English-speaking Americans — people who speak indistinctly, have limited vocabularies, and make incessant grammatical mistakes can’t really be said to speak their own languages fluently.

 

[tuffsmurf]

I am Scandinavian actually, and while I consider myself fluent in english I doubt anyone who has heard me speak think it is my native language. I also get a lot more unsure about spelling in english.