Who will you be supporting in the U.S. presidential election with our Catholic values in mind?

[Ridgerunner]

No, it’s about Trump extorting Ukraine by withholding US taxpayer money earmarked for the Ukraine by Congress until they investigate his political enemies.

Requesting that Ukraine do what treaty obligates it to do is not “extortion”. In any event, Zelensky had no thought he was being “extorted”. You have to know the threat to be “extorted” by it. Finally, there is no reason at all to think Trump had no right to request that Ukraine investigate the 2016 hacking of the DNC computer to the extent there is evidence relating to that over there. Foreign intervention in that election was the subject of nearly three years of Democrat-required Mueller investigation. Mueller never even asked for the DNC computer or anything from Ukraine which is one of the alleged sources of the hack.

And why should Biden be immune from investigation when he bragged about his extorting the Ukrainian government in front of the whole world? If I run for public office, does that make me immune from prosecution? I think not.

 

[Ridgerunner]

do think that, but it is my opinion and I am not pushing it on anyone else.

Suggesting that you have no basis for it other than that your desire to believe it.

 

[drcube]

Requesting that Ukraine do what treaty obligates it to do is not “extortion”. In any event, Zelensky had no thought he was being “extorted”. You have to know the threat to be “extorted” by it. Finally, there is no reason at all to think Trump had no right to request that Ukraine investigate the 2016 hacking of the DNC computer to the extent there is evidence relating to that over there. Foreign intervention in that election was the subject of nearly three years of Democrat-required Mueller investigation. Mueller never even asked for the DNC computer or anything from Ukraine which is one of the alleged sources of the hack.

Yes, it is extortion and we are now hearing from within the Ukrainian government that they knew darn well that the aid was being withheld and why.

I am well versed in the Republican excuses for why Trump would ask about Crowdstrike even though there is NO EVIDENCE that a server was there. He asked because Crowdstrike pointing the hacking of the DNC computers to Russia. And Trump directly asked about the Bidens.

And why should Biden be immune from investigation when he bragged about his extorting the Ukrainian government in front of the whole world? If I run for public office, does that make me immune from prosecution? I think not.

Again, you make me repeat this because you continue to propagate falsehoods. Everyone wanted Slokin fired because he was corrupt. It was US policy, it was EU policy, it was the IMF and anti-corruption Ukrainians. The investigation into Burisma was dormant at the time, so Biden was actually opening his son up to more risk (if he had done something wrong, which there is NO EVIDENCE of) by demanding that an easily bribed, corrupt prosecutor get fired. If Biden had done something wrong, a less corrupt prosecutor might find it.

So many falsehoods, over and over again.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, it is extortion and we are now hearing from within the Ukrainian government that they knew darn well that the aid was being withheld and why.

It wouldn’t be “extortion” even if the Ukrainian government knew aid was being withheld for that reason prior to the telephone call, which I very much doubt. If you believe the president of Ukraine is lying, then give us a good reason to think it.

I’m not a Republican. Never have been.

Since the FBI never got a chance to examine the DNC computer, and since there is at least one version that it came through Ukraine, that is a legitimate object of investigation. Certainly the Steele “dossier” was intended to affect the 2016 election and probably did to a degree. Moreover, that fraudulent document cost the taxpayers 30 million dollars and innumerable hours of wasted time on the part of the administration and other prosecutorial entities.

So you think there should be no investigation of those things?

Nobody, including you, have ever given information on here establishing that Shokin was corrupt beyond mere speculation. He’s not being prosecuted by anybody, domestic or foreign. Biden bragged about forcing the Ukrainian government to fire the chief prosecutor by threatening the withdrawal of American aid. And he did it while the Burisma investigation was still an open file. In no other case did Biden ever do anything remotely like it, notwithstanding that there are corrupt government officials everywhere, many of which receive American aid.

But obstructing justice is something we can expect from the Democrat establishment. Nothing new in this.

 

[drcube]

It wouldn’t be “extortion” even if the Ukrainian government knew aid was being withheld for that reason prior to the telephone call, which I very much doubt. If you believe the president of Ukraine is lying, then give us a good reason to think it.

Yes, it would be extortion. And, yes, there is evidence that Ukraine understood they were being asked to investigate Trump’s political opponents in exchange for aid (see Ukraine Knew of Aid Freeze by Early August, Undermining Trump Defense - The New York Times)

I’m not a Republican. Never have been.

Irrelevant.

Since the FBI never got a chance to examine the DNC computer, and since there is at least one version that it came through Ukraine, that is a legitimate object of investigation. Certainly the Steele “dossier” was intended to affect the 2016 election and probably did to a degree. Moreover, that fraudulent document cost the taxpayers 30 million dollars and innumerable hours of wasted time on the part of the administration and other prosecutorial entities.

You don’t even know where the evidence is and you want an announcement of an investigation by Ukraine. There is no reason to do this except to attack Trump’s political enemies.

So you think there should be no investigation of those things?

I think there should be investigations of crimes in reality. Might as well investigate the tooth fairy because someone stole my kid’s tooth from under the pillow.

Nobody, including you, have ever given information on here establishing that Shokin was corrupt beyond mere speculation. He’s not being prosecuted by anybody, domestic or foreign. Biden bragged about forcing the Ukrainian government to fire the chief prosecutor by threatening the withdrawal of American aid. And he did it while the Burisma investigation was still an open file. In no other case did Biden ever do anything remotely like it, notwithstanding that there are corrupt government officials everywhere, many of which receive American aid.

I’ve provided links before. You clearly don’t read them and then go on and on repeating the same talking points even though I’ve provided links. In fact, I see a lot of people regularly debunk your . . . errors . . . and then you wait a day and start them all over again.

But obstructing justice is something we can expect from the Democrat establishment. Nothing new in this.

So, you go with the charged language and unjustified attack. . . .

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, it would be extortion. And, yes, there is evidence that Ukraine understood they were being asked to investigate Trump’s political opponents in exchange for aid (see https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/23/us/politics/ukraine-aid-freeze-impeachment.html )

The usual unattributed sourcing. But not supporting the Dems (and their whistleblower’s) claim that the July phone conference was a “quid pro quo”. If Ukraine actually did learn of the aid holdup in August, clearly Zelensky is telling the truth in saying there was no threat to him in July.

Irrelevant.

You’re the one who said it. If you think it irrelevant, you shouldn’t have said it.

You don’t even know where the evidence is and you want an announcement of an investigation by Ukraine. There is no reason to do this except to attack Trump’s political enemies.

Couldn’t be more wrong. Rarely doies any investigative body have all the evidence before starting an investigation. The purpose of investigations is to see what the evidence is.

I think there should be investigations of crimes in reality. Might as well investigate the tooth fairy because someone stole my kid’s tooth from under the pillow.

No, Burisma was a known criminal organization and Biden used American money to terminate investigation of it. That’s not “tooth fairy” stuff.

I’ve provided links before

But not once providing anything more than speculation that Shokin was corrupt. He’s charged with nothing, either in Ukraine or elsewhere.

 

[drcube]

The usual unattributed sourcing. But not supporting the Dems (and their whistleblower’s) claim that the July phone conference was a “quid pro quo”. If Ukraine actually did learn of the aid holdup in August, clearly Zelensky is telling the truth in saying there was no threat to him in July.

The extortion happened throughout August into September.

You’re the one who said it. If you think it irrelevant, you shouldn’t have said it.

I said Republican talking points. Not that you are a Republican. You don’t have to be Republican to give Republican talking points.\

Couldn’t be more wrong. Rarely doies any investigative body have all the evidence before starting an investigation. The purpose of investigations is to see what the evidence is.

No, again. There has to be a crime and evidence that the people you are investigating are involved in the crime. There was a crime (Russians hacking into the DNC server), but no evidence that Crowdstrike had anything to do with it (except saying the Russians did it) and there is no physical evidence at Crowdstrike. It would be the equivalent of cops breaking down your door because someone in your town stole a car. They wouldn’t have the right unless there was some evidence that you were involved. Trump has no evidence that anyone is involved, and, furthermore, he didn’t seem to care if there was an investigation - he seems to just have wanted an announcement of an investigation. The only reason for that is to hurt his political opponents.

No, Burisma was a known criminal organization and Biden used American money to terminate investigation of it. That’s not “tooth fairy” stuff.

Yeah, your telling of it is ‘tooth fairy’ stuff. All imagination. But, since you seem to want criminal standards to be held, point me towards actual convictions against Burisma when Hunter Biden was on the board. Let me know what you find.

But not once providing anything more than speculation that Shokin was corrupt. He’s charged with nothing, either in Ukraine or elsewhere.

It’s almost like you don’t understand how corrupt countries work. That’s fine. . . .

 

[Ridgerunner]

The extortion happened throughout August into September.

What a joke. Meaning, of course, that this whole big “whistleblower” show is premised on a fraud that is now admitted. The big story was that the Phone call of 7/25/19 was the “quid pro quo” unveiling. But oops! now that it’s just beyond debate that Zelensky didn’t perceive any kind of pressure and Trump didn’t display any to anyone on the day of the whistleblower’s “concern”, the story has to change.

A total crock. And it will change again if need be.

There was a crime (Russians hacking into the DNC server), but no evidence that Crowdstrike had anything to do with it (except saying the Russians did it) and there is no physical evidence at Crowdstrike

That’s no the point, though, is it? There is no evidence whatever that the DNC hack was the Russians; only Crowdstrike’s word for it. And Crowdstrike was on the payroll of the DNC.
Why should anyone expect physical evidence of anything at Crowdstrike.

But that does not mean hirelings of the DNC or the Clinton campaign did not collude with Ukrainian sources at least through Steele. That is, in fact, pretty well established. So why should there be no Ukrainian cooperation in trying to get at the truth of attempts to affect the2016 election? There should be.

he didn’t seem to care if there was an investigation - he seems to just have wanted an announcement of an investigation. The only reason for that is to hurt his political opponents.

You can’t read his mind. But again, the underlying dem theme is that Biden should not be investigated despite his bragging before the whole world that he interfered in the justice system in Ukraine, using taxpayer dollars to do it. There is no more reason to say that than there was to think there should have been no investigation of Nixon’s role in Watergate.

point me towards actual convictions against Burisma when Hunter Biden was on the board

Unlikely in the absence of any investigation, which is what the Dems are fighting against.

 

[drcube]

What a joke. Meaning, of course, that this whole big “whistleblower” show is premised on a fraud that is now admitted. The big story was that the Phone call of 7/25/19 was the “quid pro quo” unveiling. But oops! now that it’s just beyond debate that Zelensky didn’t perceive any kind of pressure and Trump didn’t display any to anyone on the day of the whistleblower’s “concern”, the story has to change.

Have you been listening to the testimony? It is clear that there was a systematic approach in trying to get the Ukraine to open up investigations of Trump’s political enemies to get the money released.

A total crock. And it will change again if need be.

Maybe you should actually listen to the testimony.

That’s no the point, though, is it? There is no evidence whatever that the DNC hack was the Russians; only Crowdstrike’s word for it. And Crowdstrike was on the payroll of the DNC.
Why should anyone expect physical evidence of anything at Crowdstrike.

I’m not sure why anyone would expect physical evidence at Crowdstrike for anything. But Trump does and he was willing to hold back aid to the Ukraine until they announced an investigation.

You can’t read his mind. But again, the underlying dem theme is that Biden should not be investigated despite his bragging before the whole world that he interfered in the justice system in Ukraine, using taxpayer dollars to do it. There is no more reason to say that than there was to think there should have been no investigation of Nixon’s role in Watergate.

Again, witness testimony. Really, try catching up.

Unlikely in the absence of any investigation, which is what the Dems are fighting against.

So, to be clear, Shokin is innocent and Biden railroaded him because he wasn’t convicted of anything, but Burisma is dirty and everyone knows it, but you can’t produce evidence of it. Got it. . . .

 

[HarryStotle]

So, to be clear, Shokin is innocent and Biden railroaded him because he wasn’t convicted of anything, but Burisma is dirty and everyone knows it, but you can’t produce evidence of it. Got it. . . .

I suppose the widening investigation by the new state prosecutor in Ukraine of Zlochevsky, Burisma and others, doesn’t count as evidence?

Biden-link oligarch suspected of large scale theft of government funds

The new Ukrainian prosecutor general Ruslan Ryaboshapka said Mykola Zlochevsky is suspected of the theft when he was minister of ecology. The new prosecutor has been reviewing old cases.

www.dailymail.co.uk

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/press-conference/625831.html

From the second article:

“Last week, November 14, the Prosecutor General’s Office (PGO), unnoticed by the media, announced a new suspicion to the notorious owner of Burisma, ex-Ecology Minister Zlochevsky. According to the suspicion, the Yanukovych family is suspected, in particular, with legalizing (laundering) of criminally obtained income through Franklin Templeton Investments, an investment fund carrying out purchases of external government loan bonds totaling $7.4 billion,” Derkach said.

With reference to the investigation, he emphasized: it was money criminally obtained by the “family” of Yanukovych and invested in the purchase of Ukrainian debt in 2013-2014.

For his part, MP Oleksandr Dubinsky from the Servant of the People faction said that according to investigators, “the Yanukovych ‘family’ illegally obtained $7.4 billion and laundered the funds through an investment fund close to some representatives of the U.S. Democratic Party in the form of external government loan bonds.”

Meanwhile, Derkach said that several facts indicate Franklin Templeton Investments’ relationship with the U.S. Democratic Party.

“The son of Templeton’s founder, John Templeton Jr., was one of President Obama’s major campaign donors. Another fund-related character is Thomas Donilon. Managing Director of BlackRock Investment Institute, shareholder Franklin Templeton Investments, which has the largest share in the fund. It is noteworthy that he previously was Obama’s national security advisor,” Derkach said.

The MP said that the presidents of Ukraine and the United States should combine the efforts of the two countries to establish facts of corruption and money laundering with the participation of citizens of both countries.

 

[pnewton]

I wonder if many other are like me and do not care about the outcome of this investigation, a misnomer if I ever heard one. The Democrats and the Republicans do not give two cents for the truth of the matter. Democrats just want to hurt Trump, regardless of evidence, and Republicans want to stay blind to any blunder of the man, with the response of, “But Obama! But Hillary!”

I have no problem even with the basic premise that he held up aid Congress sent to the Ukraine and is pro-Russian. That does not make him a criminal or a traitor. There are so many reason I consider him unfit for his office, but I will not sacrifice truth to have him removed. If he is re-elected, Congress needs to back off and respect the will of the people, and the people will get the consequences they deserve.

 

[Metis1]

OK, so Trump and his believers, including the majority of Pubs in Congress, believe former KBG-agent Vladimir Putin, who had many people killed in the Soviet Union, more than they believe our own 17 different intelligence agencies. And then they believe Putin’s accusation that the Russians didn’t meddle in our 2016 election but that the Ukrainians did despite the fact that all our agencies said it was the Russians, as they were doing much the same in eastern Europe. And Trump has closed-door meetings with Putin without even an American translator allowed in, and that doesn’t even raise any red flags? And then Trump praises Putin whenever he gets a chance, including his possible going to Moscow for Russia’s May Day military parade.

I never thought I’d see the day when so many Americans would blindly support a former Soviet KGB agent over even our own military intelligence community.

Trump believers, maybe watch Fiona Hill’s testimony today, because based on her recently released summary you might find out something that you might find “enlightening”.

 

[drcube]

I suppose the widening investigation by the new state prosecutor in Ukraine of Zlochevsky , Burisma and others, doesn’t count as evidence?

The point was that @Ridgerunner claims that we can’t say Shokin was corrupt because he wasn’t convicted of anything, but we know Burisma was dirty. It’s a double standard that meets his political views.

 

[drcube]

I have no problem even with the basic premise that he held up aid Congress sent to the Ukraine and is pro-Russian.

It isn’t that he held up aid, but the reason he held up aid. For his personal benefit. That’s where is crosses a line into extortion and that’s why Congress is right to pursue this.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The point was that @Ridgerunner claims that we can’t say Shokin was corrupt because he wasn’t convicted of anything, but we know Burisma was dirty. It’s a double standard that meets his political views.

There is a difference. The head of Burisma has been indicted. Shokin has not. Single standard.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It isn’t that he held up aid, but the reason he held up aid. For his personal benefit

Pretty big assumption; one for which there is no direct evidence at all, despite the fact that Trump was so open and aboveboard about the call that he allowed a number of people to listen to it. Either Biden was engaged in corruption and obstruction of justice or he wasn’t. It is a legitimate executive function to request that either of those things at the highest level of government be investigated.

But regardless, the “favor” was actually looking into Ukrainian information on the DNC hack. Dems ignore that aspect of it. They didn’t have Mueller investigate it even though the “dirty dossier” information came from Ukraine and seems to have Russian (name removed by moderator)ut.

Furthermore, at the time there was nothing special about Biden’s candidacy. He was one of many, and not the front runner.

 

[drcube]

There is a difference. The head of Burisma has been indicted. Shokin has not. Single standard.

Please provide a link.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Dozens of articles speak of the indictment of the head of Burisma. There is a terminology difference, though.

BREAKING! TRUMP WAS RIGHT!... Head of Burisma Holdings Indicted in Ukraine! ...Claims Hunter Biden and Partners Paid $16.5 MILLION | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hoft

REALITY STRIKES DEMOCRAT SHOW TRIAL!

www.thegatewaypundit.com

 

[drcube]

Pretty big assumption; one for which there is no direct evidence at all, despite the fact that Trump was so open and aboveboard about the call that he allowed a number of people to listen to it. Either Biden was engaged in corruption and obstruction of justice or he wasn’t. It is a legitimate executive function to request that either of those things at the highest level of government be investigated.

Trump probably didn’t realize it was criminal. The fact that someone felt the need to submit a whistleblower report and there have been numerous testimonies about how unusual the call was and how uncomfortable it made people should be an indication that this was a problem. But you continue to deflect to excuse Trump trying to get dirt on Biden because Biden was corrupt even though there is no evidence of this as an excuse for Trump’s criminal behavior.

But regardless, the “favor” was actually looking into Ukrainian information on the DNC hack. Dems ignore that aspect of it. They didn’t have Mueller investigate it even though the “dirty dossier” information came from Ukraine and seems to have Russian (name removed by moderator)ut.

And our intelligence agencies and all the witnesses that have testified to Congress have said that there is no evidence to support looking into this. It’s another deflection.

Furthermore, at the time there was nothing special about Biden’s candidacy. He was one of many, and not the front runner.

He is the frontrunner in national polls.

Dozens of articles speak of the indictment of the head of Burisma. There is a terminology difference, though.

The Gateway Pundit – 20 Nov 19

BREAKING! TRUMP WAS RIGHT!.. Head of Burisma Holdings Indicted in Ukraine!..​

REALITY STRIKES DEMOCRAT SHOW TRIAL! The head of Burisma Holdings was indicted this week in Ukraine! Ukrainian Prosecutor General indicted Burisma owner Nikolai Zlochevsky. The claim alleges that Hunter Biden and his partners received $16.5 million…

Oh, goodness, the Gateway Pundit. Pizzagate guy? Seriously.

 

[farronwolf]

There is no evidence whatever that the DNC hack was the Russians; only Crowdstrike’s word for it.

Really?

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf

Read the Mueller report.

There are 12 Russians indicted for the act.

If one would listen to the hearings as they are taking place. I just happen to have listened or watched 90% of them. They all say this nonsense of Ukraine interfering with the election is just that nonsense. NO US Intelligence agencies support any form of that craziness.

However if folks want to cover their ears and do the blah blah blah, I can’t hear you when folks who know speak of it, I guess folks are entitled to do that.

DOJ defends assessment by CrowdStrike and FBI that Russia interfered in 2016 election - Washington Examiner

The Justice Department is defending the role played by cybersecurity firm CrowdStrike and by the FBI in determining that Russia hacked Democratic systems in 2016, assuring Congress it got the information it needed to carry out its investigation into Russian interference. Adam Hickey, the deputy...

www.washingtonexaminer.com