Who Will You Vote For in 2012?

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antonivs said:
_Abyssinia there are people who are pro life and believe abortion is murder who don’t agree that “nothing justifies voting for someone who supports it.” A 2007 Voting Guide by the Catholic Bishops offered flexibility on the issue of Abortion:

source: nytimes.com/2007/11/15/us/15bishops.html
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What other “morally grave reasons” do the Democrat Party stand for that make it acceptable to overlook these two issues, which have been defined by the Church as “gravely immoral”?

Social justice? Does social justice command higher moral value than life or the sanctity of marriage? How about educational freedom? What about carbon footprints? Equal opportunity? What combination of these issues tops the sanctity of life and marriage?
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
What other “morally grave reasons” do the Democrat Party stand for that make it acceptable to overlook these two issues, which have been defined by the Church as “gravely immoral”?

Social justice? Does social justice command higher moral value than life or the sanctity of marriage? How about educational freedom? What about carbon footprints? Equal opportunity? What combination of these issues tops the sanctity of life and marriage?
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First of all, we should be looking at the specific positions of individual candidates not merely their party label. Does any candidate line up with their party’s platform 100%?

Secondly, the other candidate could have morally grave issues as well.
 
antonivs said:
_Abyssinia there are people who are pro life and believe abortion is murder who don’t agree that “nothing justifies voting for someone who supports it.” A 2007 Voting Guide by the Catholic Bishops offered flexibility on the issue of Abortion:

source: nytimes.com/2007/11/15/us/15bishops.html
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I sm afraid you are posting the NYT interpretation of a single paragraph of the document. The only case in which a Catholic can support someone who is pro/abortion is when there opponent is more pro-abortion than they are.
 
estesbob said:
I sm afraid you are posting the NYT interpretation of a single paragraph of the document. The only case in which a Catholic can support someone who is pro/abortion is when there opponent is more pro-abortion than they are.
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Abortion is not the only morally grave issue. Support for genocide, torture, an unjust war, the death penalty could be others. Here’s the link, read the document by the Bishops for yourself.

faithfulcitizenship.org/docs/insert_2p_color_english.pdf
 
antonivs said:
Abortion is not the only issue morally grave issue. Support for an unjust war could be another. Here’s the link, read the document by the Bishops for yourself.

faithfulcitizenship.org/docs/insert_2p_color_english.pdf
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Pope Benedict specifically stated that support for the Iraq war or the desth penalty was not a proportionate reason that would allow a Catholic to vote for a pro-abortion canidate.

Abortion is genocide in that is takes the lives of a disprportionate number of Black children. In fact the primary provider of abortions in this country was founded on the premise that the births of black children needed be limited
 
estesbob said:
Pope Benedict specifically stated that support for the Iraq war was not a proportionate reason that would allow a Catholic to vote for a pro-abortion canidate
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Read the document. Deciding who to vote for is more nuanced that that.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
What other “morally grave reasons” do the Democrat Party stand for that make it acceptable to overlook these two issues, which have been defined by the Church as “gravely immoral”?

Social justice? Does social justice command higher moral value than life or the sanctity of marriage? How about educational freedom? What about carbon footprints? Equal opportunity? What combination of these issues tops the sanctity of life and marriage?
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The Church doesn’t say, definitely. It says “other morally grave reasons.” It seems that it is up to the Catholic voter’s examined conscience to determine what those reasons are, to him or her. Else the Church would just lay out what the morally grave issues are or aren’t.

I oppose abortion, but I don’t believe that fealty and obeisance to the GOP is the only way to achieve it.
 
antonivs said:
Read the document. Deciding who to vote for is more nuanced that that.
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Actually it is not more nuanced than that. It is “nuanced” only for those Catholics who put their Politics Head of their faith
 
estesbob said:
Pope Benedict specifically stated that support for the Iraq war or the desth penalty was not a proportionate reason that would allow a Catholic to vote for a pro-abortion canidate.

Abortion is genocide in that is takes the lives of a disprportionate number of Black children. In fact the primary provider of abortions in this country was founded on the premise that the births of black children needed be limited
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shuuush…quiet…don’t disturb people with the truth…you might actually wake them up…sheesh
 
antonivs said:
Abortion is not the only morally grave issue. Support for genocide, torture, an unjust war, the death penalty could be others. Here’s the link, read the document by the Bishops for yourself.

faithfulcitizenship.org/docs/insert_2p_color_english.pdf
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Genocide, agree (but tell me when a USA voter has a chance to vote against genocide).

**Torture **(when can a voter cast a vote for or against torture, and who actually support torture)?

**Unjust war **(the church says that it is up to our civil leaders to determine–not normal citizens).

**Death penalty **(the church allows for the death penalty).

Abortion: is the only thing on your list which has been condemned by the Church as an intrinsic evil, with the Church stating that NO Catholic can EVER support abortion. It is also the only thing on your list that a Catholic voter can take action to stop through the use of their vote.
 
antonivs said:
First of all, we should be looking at the specific positions of individual candidates not merely their party label. Does any candidate line up with their party’s platform 100%?

Secondly, the other candidate could have morally grave issues as well.
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All I can say is: Bart Stupak and that is all I need to know about “pro-life” Catholic politicians.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
The Church doesn’t say, definitely. It says “other morally grave reasons.” It seems that it is up to the Catholic voter’s examined conscience to determine what those reasons are, to him or her. Else the Church would just lay out what the morally grave issues are or aren’t.

I oppose abortion, but I don’t believe that fealty and obeisance to the GOP is the only way to achieve it.
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That is because there are no more “morally grave” reasons than life. The Church can’t define them because there aren’t any.

Fine, then don’t vote for anyone.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
The Church doesn’t say, definitely. It says “other morally grave reasons.” It seems that it is up to the Catholic voter’s examined conscience to determine what those reasons are, to him or her. Else the Church would just lay out what the morally grave issues are or aren’t.

I oppose abortion, but I don’t believe that fealty and obeisance to the GOP is the only way to achieve it.
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I don’t owe fealty to any party but I most often find acceptable candidates among Republicans. For one thing…I cannot find a reason to vote for a Democrat for religious OR secular reasons. If the parties would exchange platforms…no problem…I will vote Democrat. The Rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
The Church doesn’t say, definitely. It says “other morally grave reasons.” It seems that it is up to the Catholic voter’s examined conscience to determine what those reasons are, to him or her. Else the Church would just lay out what the morally grave issues are or aren’t.

I oppose abortion, but I don’t believe that fealty and obeisance to the GOP is the only way to achieve it.
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Granted, and you are quite correct that the GOP is far from perfect regarding abortion. However, let’s get this to its basic level:

Democrats: fight non-stop and strongly to keep abortion legal and to expand its access.

GOP: fights to make many different forms of abortion illegal (i.e. partial borth abortion), while also working toward an eventual reversal of Roe. v. Wade and return the issue to the states, with the hope that legal fights in the states will lead to the end of legal abortion.

Bottom line: the Democrats continue to fight for abortion–while the GOP continues to fight against legal abortion, and even though the GOP is far from perfect, they never stop fighting against that horrible practice.

Placing our Catholic faith aside, if you really do want to see an end to legal abortion, then you really have one, and only one party to vote for–and if you think ANY other issues (even when combined) can equal the slaughter of 1.2 million innocent unborn babies every year, than perhaps you need to think again. You might be truly difficult for you to vote for a GOP candidate, yet if you are truly pro-life, you have NO choice, other than to not vote at all–because if you vote for a Democrat, you are in fact voting to keep abortion legal.

I too wish the GOP was different in many ways…yet one thing at a time, and the greatest scourge on this planet right now is abortion. We ban that practice and then we can move on to other things while placing pressure on the Dems and the GOP to do the right thing.

Perhaps, as you cast a painful vote for a GOP candidate, you can also work to get the Democratic Party back onto the side of life! It seems amazing to me that the Dems claim to be the party of the people, while fighting so strongly to kill the most vunerable among us…there is a very serious disconnect from reality present there…imo. 🙂

If the GOP could have just one cycle of having a filibuster proof Senate, majority in the House, and the Presidency, they could pass a life amendment that even the SC would not be able to overturn. All the innocent lives need is the resolve by all Catholics to get this done–working together for them–not for our own egos and pride, but for the sake of those poor little lives that we allow to be legally killed every single year. Catholics, everywhere, need to stand for once as a united group and STOP this evil scourge–yet it cannot be done if we refuse to allow the reality of abortion into out minds.
 
antonivs said:
Abortion is not the only morally grave issue. Support for genocide, torture, an unjust war, the death penalty could be others. Here’s the link, read the document by the Bishops for yourself.

faithfulcitizenship.org/docs/insert_2p_color_english.pdf
Click to expand...
While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI

*The inviolability of the person which is a reflection of the absolute inviolability of God fínds its primary and fundamental expression in the inviolability of human life. Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights – for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture – is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination…. The human being is entitled to such rights, in every phase of development, from conception until natural death; and in every condition, whether healthy or sick, whole or handicapped, rich or poor (# 38).

Pope John Paul II
 
antonivs said:
Save your insults. My conscience is clean. And it is more nuanced than that according the the U.S. Bishops. Have the read the document yet? It is only two pages.
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Yes i have. It says that we can not vote for a pro-abortion canidate. That is what we have been saying all along. As always we should note that the word “nuanced” when used by Catholics generally proceeds a rationalization as to why it OK to support a pro-abortion canidate in spite of the teachings of the Church

Standard appeal to the primacy of conscience is duly noted.
 
estesbob said:
Yes i have. It says that we can not vote for a pro-abortion canidate. That is what we have been saying all along. As always we should note that the word “nuanced” when used by Catholics generally proceeds a rationalization as to why it OK to support a pro-abortion canidate in spite of the teachings of the Church
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That is not my reading of the document. I hope all other Catholics will read it for themselves and carefully and prayfully weigh all the issues before voting.
 
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