Why Catholics Should Vote for Trump article

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pnewton said:
Absolutely the Church supports those laws.
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I can’t believe a Catholic would even think this could be true. The Church does not support abortion laws.

USCCB statement on Roe V Wade

" Roe v. Wade cannot stand as the law of this great nation, a nation founded on the self-evident truth that all people are created with an inalienable right to life. We are committed, no matter how long it may take, no matter the sacrifices required, to bringing about a reversal of this tragic Supreme Court decision. We will speak out on behalf of the sanctity of each and every human life wherever it is threatened, from conception to natural death, and we urge all people of good will to do likewise. For, as Pope John Paul II reminds us, “it is impossible to further the common good without acknowledging and defending the right to life, upon which all the other inalienable rights of individuals are founded and from which they develop” ( The Gospel of Life , no. 101). Roe v. Wade must be reversed."
pnewton said:
Not agreeing with that position, nonetheless, is not heresy
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See, I don’t think someone has to be named a formal heretic to see a pattern of general contempt for Church teaching in their actions and in what they support/would work to implement as a candidate. A person who demonstrates repeatedly that they don’t support certain Church teachings is a CINO in practice. I know what I see. IOW, don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining. My judgement is not based on whether he meets the formal definitions of heretic.
 
buffalo said:
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LeafByNiggle:
That statistics say otherwise. If you list all the “bad cop” instances, you will see that the majority of them have been against people of color.
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Let’s investigate:

A new study debunks a common myth.

The authors, faculty at Michigan State University and the University of Maryland at College Park, created a database of 917 officer-involved fatal shootings in 2015 from more than 650 police departments. Fifty-five percent of the victims were white, 27 percent were black, and 19 percent were Hispanic.
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Since blacks account for only 13% of the US population, having 27% of the fatal police shootings be of blacks does not support your “debunking”. Also, these are the wrong statistics, as they are considering a more general case than I case citing. These statistics are of all sorts of police involved fatal shootings - including shootings of real bad guys that were in the act of doing something bad. I ask you to focus only on the case where a clearly “bad cop” operation has taken place, such as George Floyd or Bryonna Taylor. Don’t dilute the statistics by throwing in bank robbers and rapists and all sorts of incidents that might or might not have valid justifications. Just focus on the police killings that had no reasonable justification for occurring, and try to find white victims. I only know of one, but I’m not going to help you out with your list. That’s your job.
So-called threat-misperception shootings, in which an officer shoots an unarmed civilian after mistaking a cellphone, say, for a gun, were rare.
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…but when they happen, the victim always seems to be black.
There is widespread concern about racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings and that these disparities reflect discrimination by White officers.
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Again, that’s the wrong issue you are defending. It’s not about white officers vs black officers. It is about white innocent victims vs black innocent victims.
 
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This is precisely how I feel about Trump and the pro-life movement. Binding ourselves to Trump is a Faustian bargain that we will live to regret.
 
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Ridgerunner said:
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LeafByNiggle:
In Trump’s case, I doubt he seriously cares about aborted babies, but he does care about the votes of people who do care about those babies.
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You don’t know this, of course, but if it’s so, so what? This is like criticizing an auto mechanic because he only cares about doing a good job on your car, and doesn’t care about your religion.
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No, it is more like an criticizing an auto mechanic because he only cares about looking good to his boss but doesn’t care if your car breaks down in a way that he won’t be blamed. That could be Trump. (Again, I am not stating it as a fact but am correctly labeling it as a possibility that in my opinion is likely, especially considering the revelations in Mary Trump’s new book.)
LeafByNiggle said:
I will believe he is pro-life when he suggests offering free pre-natal and delivery services for any pregnant woman, regardless of complications and regardless of ability to pay.
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In other words, you equate being prolife with socialism.
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My proposal is no more socialism than public funded elementary school education, and that has been a hallmark of American society since reconstruction. It is part of Western Culture. You don’t want to tear down Western Culture, do you?
LeafByNiggle said:
existential threat I believe is posed by Trump
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What would that be, concretely?
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I’m not going to bite on that one, for my point is not to convince others that I am right, but only to convince others that I have the right under our nations laws and under Church laws to hold the opinion I hold and to vote accordingly.
 
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buffalo said:
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whatistrue:
If they were shot because of their race, then yes. Also how about addressing the more significant portions of the post you are quoting?
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A black cop shoots a black is racism? oh my
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The issue of systemic or institutional racism is misunderstood as racism expressed by an individual. In fact there can be and there are racist institutions and systems that, once set up, continue to operate with racist consequences even when the individuals working within that system are not themselves racist. In some case the system is accidental. In other cases the system was deliberately set up to be racist by people who were racist, but are no longer around, but their system continues to operate after them.

That is the case in police departments. They are deployed by policies decided by the higher-ups in that system. A black cop on the beat working within that system could very well be the instrument on occasion for the enactment of racism without that cop himself being racist.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
These statistics are of all sorts of police involved fatal shootings - including shootings of real bad guys that were in the act of doing something bad. I ask you to focus only on the case where a clearly “bad cop” operation has taken place, such as George Floyd or Bryonna Taylor
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The problem with saying definitively that there is or is not some kind of systemic racism based on data is that there is no reliable and consistent data measurement of this statistic.
LeafByNiggle said:
Just focus on the police killings that had no reasonable justification for occurring, and try to find white victims. I only know of one, but I’m not going to help you out with your list. That’s your job.
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Why require data to prove there’s not systemic racism when you can’t provide data that there is? Just sayin.
 
Just to point out that the article you reference involves only shootings.

Do you have the numbers and statistics for those that die in police custody in total, not specific to cause of death?
 
Elizabeth3 said:
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LeafByNiggle:
These statistics are of all sorts of police involved fatal shootings - including shootings of real bad guys that were in the act of doing something bad. I ask you to focus only on the case where a clearly “bad cop” operation has taken place, such as George Floyd or Bryonna Taylor
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The problem with saying definitively that there is or is not some kind of systemic racism based on data is that there is no reliable and consistent data measurement of this statistic.
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How about common sense? Look at George Floyd. Is there any doubt that was an unjust response on he part of office Chauvin? Same thing for Byonna Taylor, shot in her bed while her partner tried to defend them against what appeared like a home invasion. Now just try to come up with similar instances with white victims, and keep count as you go.
LeafByNiggle said:
Just focus on the police killings that had no reasonable justification for occurring, and try to find white victims. I only know of one, but I’m not going to help you out with your list. That’s your job.
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Why require data to prove there’s not systemic racism when you can’t provide data that there is? Just sayin.
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How long a list of unjust killings will constitute data in your mind? (because I can come up with a very long list.)
 
LeafByNiggle said:
How about common sense? Look at George Floyd. Is there any doubt that was an unjust response on he part of office Chauvin? Same thing for Byonna Taylor, shot in her bed while her partner tried to defend them against what appeared like a home invasion. Now just try to come up with similar instances with white victims, and keep count as you go.
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While there hasn’t been a trial, just by the footage it appears to be an unjust response by Chauvin. Brutal. Was Chauvin motivated by race? …by a growing bitterness from dealing with criminals all around? …by something personal from possible interactions working security at the same place? It’s not clear.

I admit to not being familiar with the Bryonna Taylor incident enough to comment.

Can I come up with similar instances with white victims? Well, the only way to do that is to hear it from the media. Local news might cover such instances but we don’t hear much in the national media. Why? Is it because it doesn’t exist? Or is it because it doesn’t fit the narrative?
LeafByNiggle said:
How long a list of unjust killings will constitute data in your mind? (because I can come up with a very long list.)
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I’m not arguing that there are not unjust killings. I’m arguing that current data cannot prove there is or is not systemic racism. I’d like to see your list if you’d like to share.
 
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F_Marturana said:
I read that Texas children’s hospital is admitting adult covid patients.
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Yes they are, the first time ever they have accepted adults in their ICU. Its not quite as bad as it seems. Many people in the hospitals with COVID came in for other procedures/illnesses, but everyone is then tested and if they are positive they are listed in the stats as a covid patient. These hospitals are sized for 75% capacity in normal times, so it really doesn’t take that much out of the ordinary to fill them up. On the downside, even though they came in for a different procedure/illness and they may be completely asymptomatic with regards to covid-19, if they test positive then the isolation procedures kick in. Which means that its becomes harder for the hospitals to just put anyone in a given room that is suitable for them in normal times. Efficiency of space is compromised, the grouping of non-covid patients and covid patients is one of the reasons Texas Children’s is accepting adults.

My understanding is the same thing is happening in Florida, only a little worse.

Please note: my above post was not intended to say things are not bad with regards to covid-19, only that they are not as bad as much of the panic-porn (of I am allowed to use a Bill Maher term on CAF) media makes them out to be.

Someone else pointed out that death rates are lower because we know more how to treat the patients, and I definitely concure. But I do not think that explains it all. Part of it is we are treating them better, part of it is that people are no longer scared to go to the hospital until it is too late, and I think part of it likely is that the virus may not be as dangerous to those infected as before. Also, there are some indications that T-Cell immunity, not detected in anti-body tests, may be more widespread than we thought. T-Cell immunity does not keep the virus from attaching to cells when it enters the body, as those cells are attacked by the T-Cells as opposed to the virus being attack with anti-bodies.

All-in-all, I still say that here in the US, more than anything else we have simply gotten unlucky with regards to coronavirus. For example, back in Feburary, the CDC decided to develope our own tests instead of using the WHO tests. This decision was entirely logical as the CDC is normally the best in the world at doing such things and from history they had more confidence in a test they had developed. But this time, their test didn’t work. An unusual event in these situations and one that Trump cannot be blamed for.
 
An accurate and logical analysis of the current situation. This information needs to be said loud and clear to stop the panic. We should be cautious and informed, not anxious and panicking.
 
That’s good news! Thanks for sharing that. Thank you to Trump for pursuing this cause for religious freedom.
 
Elizabeth3 said:
This sounds good in theory but if the government has to pay these expenses for each and every woman, then the government and not the woman, will decide the standard of care. I’m not sure I would be comfortable with that.
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You can just pay for better care then.
 
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